Jays vs Twins - June 9 to 11 2023

[Madvillainy2004]

Can't believe we're about to lose two winnable games in a row. Offense needs to wake the hell up. Scoring 3 runs a game and expecting the pitching to always walk a fine line isn't always gonna cut.

They faced two very good pitchers the last two days and did enough to win both games if they had any kind of competent manager at all.

This week alone they had Gray Valdez and Ryan. And should've won all 3 but our manager couldn't be bothered to do obvious ****.

[Randle McMurphy]

White is throwing batting practice right now lol

I started watching golf instead. He'll be DFA'd soon enough himself.

[Madvillainy2004]

Small potatoes obviously but if espinal is gon a hit under the mendoza line can he not **** up easy plays at 2nd?

[Randle McMurphy]

Can't believe we're about to lose two winnable games in a row. Offense needs to wake the hell up. Scoring 3 runs a game and expecting the pitching to always walk a fine line isn't always gonna cut.

They faced two very good pitchers the last two days and did enough to win both games if they had any kind of competent manager at all.

This week alone they had Gray Valdez and Ryan. And should've won all 3 but our manager couldn't be bothered to do obvious ****.

Given some of these decisions, Schneider either lacks basic baseball IQ or isn't even paying attention to these games. Maybe both. We now have a pretty good idea of why the Montoyo era went the way it did though.

[Lateral Quicks]

Call up Manoah... lol...

[Randle McMurphy]

Call up Manoah... lol...

Everything about that game was so much better than watching Manoah until the manager decided to pull his bulk guy in the 8th inning for the worst non-Mitch White RP on the team.

And obviously DFA'ing Bass had to burn us literally a day later. You just knew that would happen.

[Mehar]

I cannot believe the Jays traded Nick Frasso for Mitch White. Guys like White are a dime a dozen, and you should not acquire them by trading a high quality prospect like Frasso. Sucks that Bass had to act like an idiot two days ago, and effectively doubled down on his prior statements. Bass pitched very good this past month. Him acting like an idiot resulted in Mitch White being called up. Jays need to cut their losses at this point with both Cimber and White. Really hope Chad Green and Zach Pop can be healthy sooner than later, so both Cimber and White can be DFA.

[dagger]

So much blame put on Schneider, some deserved, but this management has left the Jays in a position where there is no one at Buffalo if a starter or reliever go down or just plain suck. And I don’t get this feast or famine offence.

The organization has failed to bring good young talent to the major league level. Yes, Manoah, but he was a top 10 pick. How can they not develop some decent relievers. Other organizations do. They are either forced to spend on free agent pitchers or trade for pitching help. Either way, it’s suboptimal, paying either a financial or prospect premium year after year. Now, they have to trade for one or both, just emptying out the farm system a bit more. Or they could just try to ride the wave until Ryu comes back.


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[Raps in 4]

So much blame put on Schneider, some deserved, but this management has left the Jays in a position where there is no one at Buffalo if a starter or reliever go down or just plain suck. And I don’t get this feast or famine offence.

The organization has failed to bring good young talent to the major league level. Yes, Manoah, but he was a top 10 pick. How can they not develop some decent relievers. Other organizations do. They are either forced to spend on free agent pitchers or trade for pitching help. Either way, it’s suboptimal, paying either a financial or prospect premium year after year. Now, they have to trade for one or both, just emptying out the farm system a bit more. Or they could just try to ride the wave until Ryu comes back.


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Yep. This is entirely on management. Every team has guys stashed in the minors who can be called up in situations like this. Whether it be prospects who are ready or just career journeyman/minor league types that can be used to fill short-term holes. We have neither. We also don't have a great bullpen, which means we have to put up with games like this today.

The fact that Manoah is the only starting pitcher we've developed in 8 years (and Tiedemann being the only other prospect of note in our system, and he's nowhere near ready for the majors) is an indictment of what a poor job this FO has done.

Schneider is an idiot, but the team's lack of pitching depth isn't on him.

[hyper316]

Maybe should have DFA'd cimber instead of bass

[linery88]

Another throwaway lineup..SIGH.
Chapman batting 5th..struggling but we were still winning.No Kiermaier..NP..put Merrfifield there,or even Varsho,who was hitting great in the 7 slot.
Here ya go Schneider...maybe you will read this board lol.FIFY
All ya have to do is get it as close to this as you can.Its pretty simple.
George Springer (R) RF
Bo Bichette (R) SS
Vladimir Guerrero Jr. (R) DH
Brandon Belt (L) 1B
Matt Chapman (R) 3B
Whit Merrifield (R) 2B
Daulton Varsho (L) LF
Danny Jansen (R) C
Kevin Kiermaier (L) CF
Belt gets hurt running the bases because he is a 4 not a 3.Vlad is not a 3 because he is out of shape,and hates running,as he has admitted.So clueless this mgr,even with stuff that has worked.I want a different mgr right now !

[C Court]

This is on management. Shapiro is fine as a CEO working on CEO projects. But Atkins isn’t the guy. Nothing is going to change as long as Atkins is building this roster.

[Mehar]

So much blame put on Schneider, some deserved, but this management has left the Jays in a position where there is no one at Buffalo if a starter or reliever go down or just plain suck. And I don’t get this feast or famine offence.

The organization has failed to bring good young talent to the major league level. Yes, Manoah, but he was a top 10 pick. How can they not develop some decent relievers. Other organizations do. They are either forced to spend on free agent pitchers or trade for pitching help. Either way, it’s suboptimal, paying either a financial or prospect premium year after year. Now, they have to trade for one or both, just emptying out the farm system a bit more. Or they could just try to ride the wave until Ryu comes back.


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Well said. Shapiro said in a 2015 Fan 590 interview shortly after he got hired, that he wanted the Jays Farm System to be as good as the Rays and one of the best in baseball during his tenure in Toronto. 8 years later, it is arguably one of the worst in MLB when you are counting on the likes of Mitch White and Cavan Biggio to contribute to your team.

As much as I criticize Schneider for his idiotic moves (there is no justification in using Cimber and Mitch White in the 8th Inning today), management deserves harsh criticism too for the lack of quality depth in the farm system.

They also deserve criticism for the moves they made (especially trading Nick Frasso for Mitch White) and acquiring Varsho for Gurriel/Moreno which have resulted in sub-optimal results, and looked like mistakes and overpayments when the trades were made. You are correct when you say Shapiro/Atkins should not be let off the hook. They should not be let off the hook by ownership if this team misses the playoffs (regardless of the Jays playing in the AL East).

[linery88]

So much blame put on Schneider, some deserved, but this management has left the Jays in a position where there is no one at Buffalo if a starter or reliever go down or just plain suck. And I don’t get this feast or famine offence.

The organization has failed to bring good young talent to the major league level. Yes, Manoah, but he was a top 10 pick. How can they not develop some decent relievers. Other organizations do. They are either forced to spend on free agent pitchers or trade for pitching help. Either way, it’s suboptimal, paying either a financial or prospect premium year after year. Now, they have to trade for one or both, just emptying out the farm system a bit more. Or they could just try to ride the wave until Ryu comes back.


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Well said. Shapiro said in a 2015 Fan 590 interview shortly after he got hired, that he wanted the Jays Farm System to be as good as the Rays and one of the best in baseball during his tenure in Toronto. 8 years later, it is arguably one of the worst in MLB when you are counting on the likes of Mitch White and Cavan Biggio to contribute to your team.

As much as I criticize Schneider for his idiotic moves (there is no justification in using Cimber and Mitch White in the 8th Inning today), management deserves harsh criticism too for the lack of quality depth in the farm system.

They also deserve criticism for the moves they made (especially trading Nick Frasso for Mitch White) and acquiring Varsho for Gurriel/Moreno which have resulted in sub-optimal results, and looked like mistakes and overpayments when the trades were made. You are correct when you say Shapiro/Atkins should not be let off the hook. They should not be let off the hook by ownership if this team misses the playoffs (regardless of the Jays playing in the AL East).

I think Shapiro said what he said about the farm system to get the job....nothing more.More like propaganda or something.Shatkins record has been reported as "good enough to barely lose".
We need guys who have won,and know how to win.
This mgr clown is managing like he is at an amusement park with a blindfold on,or a cointosser.
When we were winning games with the TB lineup,we knew why we won.Before that TB lineup, it was luck or a great performance.They were easier to watch with the Tampa lineup,and things just went their way pitching/hitting.Things sure seemed settled.
I,ll be shocked if they dont go back to that lineup,and fast.

[SharoneWright]

So much blame put on Schneider, some deserved, but this management has left the Jays in a position where there is no one at Buffalo if a starter or reliever go down or just plain suck. —

The organization has failed to bring good young talent to the major league level. Yes, Manoah, but he was a top 10 pick. How can they not develop some decent relievers. Other organizations do. They are either forced to spend on free agent pitchers or trade for pitching help.

Agreed. The cupboard is bare. Not the manager’s fault either.

They didn’t need to get rid of Bass. I would’ve ranked him ahead of Cimber coming into the 8th. But winning has been deemphasized. How we all feeling? ESG is up! Is the clubhouse morale up or down?

Edit: other organizations probably don’t trade away Nick Frasso, a former Team USA member, before they know for sure what they have in him.

[Randle McMurphy]

So much blame put on Schneider, some deserved, but this management has left the Jays in a position where there is no one at Buffalo if a starter or reliever go down or just plain suck. —

The organization has failed to bring good young talent to the major league level. Yes, Manoah, but he was a top 10 pick. How can they not develop some decent relievers. Other organizations do. They are either forced to spend on free agent pitchers or trade for pitching help.

Agreed. The cupboard is bare. Not the manager’s fault either.

They didn’t need to get rid of Bass. I would’ve ranked him ahead of Cimber coming into the 8th. But winning has been deemphasized. How we all feeling? ESG is up! Is the clubhouse morale up or down?

Edit: other organizations probably don’t trade away Nick Frasso, a former Team USA member, before they know for sure what they have in him.

They didn't have to (and clearly weren't planning to) before he quite purposely publicly embarrassed the GM and the organization on Wednesday. Why they wanted to put that idiot in front of a microphone answering reporter's questions, I'll never know. One less major league RP in the organization now though.

[SharoneWright]

So much blame put on Schneider, some deserved, but this management has left the Jays in a position where there is no one at Buffalo if a starter or reliever go down or just plain suck. —

The organization has failed to bring good young talent to the major league level. Yes, Manoah, but he was a top 10 pick. How can they not develop some decent relievers. Other organizations do. They are either forced to spend on free agent pitchers or trade for pitching help.

Agreed. The cupboard is bare. Not the manager’s fault either.

They didn’t need to get rid of Bass. I would’ve ranked him ahead of Cimber coming into the 8th. But winning has been deemphasized. How we all feeling? ESG is up! Is the clubhouse morale up or down?

Edit: other organizations probably don’t trade away Nick Frasso, a former Team USA member, before they know for sure what they have in him.

They didn't have to (and clearly weren't planning to) before he quite purposely publicly embarrassed the GM and the organization on Wednesday. Why they wanted to put that idiot in front of a microphone answering reporter's questions, I'll never know. One less major league RP in the organization now though.

Jays were paying for his arm. Not his brain. His arm was theirs. His brain is his own and they could’ve kept it that way. But you’re right, they pushed him out there. They demanded genuflection in public. He couldn’t pull it off. Big L on Saturday afternoon.

[Cyrus]

So you all sure you don't want Montoyo back , not sure Schiender is doing a better job.

[linery88]

So you all sure you don't want Montoyo back , not sure Schiender is doing a better job.

I wouldn,t want Montoyo back.He at least stuck to a lineup that worked,and didnt keep changing it.Schneider after taking over Montoyas job kept the same lineup,and went to the playoffs.This whole season I thought Schneiders lineup tinkering was to get the right,final combination,and he found it,but for some reason he keeps tinkering.This pitching staff needs all the help it can get so messing with a good lineup thing may also be pissing off some of the pitchers,as well as the hitters,but none of them can say anything to the media or that would be insufferable.

[bluerap23]

So much blame put on Schneider, some deserved, but this management has left the Jays in a position where there is no one at Buffalo if a starter or reliever go down or just plain suck. And I don’t get this feast or famine offence.

The organization has failed to bring good young talent to the major league level. Yes, Manoah, but he was a top 10 pick. How can they not develop some decent relievers. Other organizations do. They are either forced to spend on free agent pitchers or trade for pitching help. Either way, it’s suboptimal, paying either a financial or prospect premium year after year. Now, they have to trade for one or both, just emptying out the farm system a bit more. Or they could just try to ride the wave until Ryu comes back.


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Well said. Shapiro said in a 2015 Fan 590 interview shortly after he got hired, that he wanted the Jays Farm System to be as good as the Rays and one of the best in baseball during his tenure in Toronto. 8 years later, it is arguably one of the worst in MLB when you are counting on the likes of Mitch White and Cavan Biggio to contribute to your team.

As much as I criticize Schneider for his idiotic moves (there is no justification in using Cimber and Mitch White in the 8th Inning today), management deserves harsh criticism too for the lack of quality depth in the farm system.

They also deserve criticism for the moves they made (especially trading Nick Frasso for Mitch White) and acquiring Varsho for Gurriel/Moreno which have resulted in sub-optimal results, and looked like mistakes and overpayments when the trades were made. You are correct when you say Shapiro/Atkins should not be let off the hook. They should not be let off the hook by ownership if this team misses the playoffs (regardless of the Jays playing in the AL East).

I also recall him being highly critical of AA for burning through prospects. At least AA knew how to draft them.