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LBJKB24MJ23 wrote:

C Court wrote:This is what I discovered from podcasts and articles written by Jays beat media, who are universally critical of Atkins.

Atkins is correct in that he does 'not' attend Schneider's pre-game planning meetings. But, Atkins has a front office representative attend every pre-game meeting on his behalf.

Does anyone really believe that Atkins has no input into what the front office employee says at Schneider's meeting or that Atkins is not de-briefed after the meeting - particularly in a win or go home play-off game?

As well, Atkins meets with Schneider after every game. Does anyone believe that Atkins didn't bring up the Berrios/Kikuchi strategy after losing game one?

Schneider says that it was an organizational decision, even though the coward Atkins says it was the manager's decision.

Who ya' gonna believe?

You, and most of the speculative fans here, have pretty much 0 evidence of such accusations of blaming 1 person.

Until or when the truth comes out, let’s see what the organization does in the off-season in terms of improving this ugly offense. They obviously need fine tuning of their analytics and the conclusions they are coming up with to warrant that change.

It seems that both Schneider and Atkins are back next year so I hope both improve in all aspects. We are not in control so why be negative. lol

We are the ones who pay their salaries. We should absolutely be critical of their performance and demand better.

LBJKB24MJ23 wrote:

C Court wrote:This is what I discovered from podcasts and articles written by Jays beat media, who are universally critical of Atkins.

Atkins is correct in that he does 'not' attend Schneider's pre-game planning meetings. But, Atkins has a front office representative attend every pre-game meeting on his behalf.

Does anyone really believe that Atkins has no input into what the front office employee says at Schneider's meeting or that Atkins is not de-briefed after the meeting - particularly in a win or go home play-off game?

As well, Atkins meets with Schneider after every game. Does anyone believe that Atkins didn't bring up the Berrios/Kikuchi strategy after losing game one?

Schneider says that it was an organizational decision, even though the coward Atkins says it was the manager's decision.

Who ya' gonna believe?

You, and most of the speculative fans here, have pretty much 0 evidence of such accusations of blaming 1 person.

Until or when the truth comes out, let’s see what the organization does in the off-season in terms of improving this ugly offense. They obviously need fine tuning of their analytics and the conclusions they are coming up with to warrant that change.

It seems that both Schneider and Atkins are back next year so I hope both improve in all aspects. We are not in control so why be negative. lol

I am not blaming one guy. I am just rightly pointing out that Atkins likely lied yesterday.

He essentially said he had no idea that Schneider was going to pull Berrios and pitch Kikuchi and he said it was Schneider’s decision. Yet Schneider said it was an organizational decision. So someone isn’t telling the truth.

As well, the reporters who follow the team daily (including pro-front office Wilner) don’t believe Atkins’version.

The comment that we are not in control so why be negative is condescending and silly. As a Jays fan since 1977, a buyer of Jays tickets, a subscriber to Rogers cable and phone services, I have a right to an opinion regarding the products they sell me. If it’s negative, so what? You have no control over my opinion. Why do you care? Why waste your time posting here? LOL

Fairview4Life wrote:I also don’t think Shatkins have done a terrible job. The Jays rebuilt quickly after 2016 and have been winning at a pretty decent pace. I think they could have done a better job, and previously I would have said “when hiring managers” but now I guess it’s more “when hiring managers and then they should not give them specific and immutable instructions for how to manage every game”. But Atkins in particular needs to go after that nonsense, and I’d also dump Schneider for just being bad even if it was in the service of following orders. These are not irreplaceable cogs in the machine.

They did rebuild quickly, but how how high is this team's ceiling? And how long is our window of contention?

We lack a truly generational offensive talent. Vlad was looking like he might be that player, but he's inexplicably regressed. We're now in a position where we have a few good hitters and a few average hitters. That isn't going to cut it for a contending team. We need more reliable production and I'm not sure where we can find it.

We have a "good" team overall, but it's also an old team and we don't have much in the way of prospects who can come in and replace the players that are aging/leaving for free agency. We have been getting worse each year since 2021. Shatkins have not done a good job building an internal talent pipeline. Bo, Kirk, Manoah, and Varsho (via Moreno) are the only significant core pieces they've brought up, and three of those regressed badly this season, calling into question whether their early career numbers were outliers.

C Court wrote:

LBJKB24MJ23 wrote:

C Court wrote:This is what I discovered from podcasts and articles written by Jays beat media, who are universally critical of Atkins.

Atkins is correct in that he does 'not' attend Schneider's pre-game planning meetings. But, Atkins has a front office representative attend every pre-game meeting on his behalf.

Does anyone really believe that Atkins has no input into what the front office employee says at Schneider's meeting or that Atkins is not de-briefed after the meeting - particularly in a win or go home play-off game?

As well, Atkins meets with Schneider after every game. Does anyone believe that Atkins didn't bring up the Berrios/Kikuchi strategy after losing game one?

Schneider says that it was an organizational decision, even though the coward Atkins says it was the manager's decision.

Who ya' gonna believe?

You, and most of the speculative fans here, have pretty much 0 evidence of such accusations of blaming 1 person.

Until or when the truth comes out, let’s see what the organization does in the off-season in terms of improving this ugly offense. They obviously need fine tuning of their analytics and the conclusions they are coming up with to warrant that change.

It seems that both Schneider and Atkins are back next year so I hope both improve in all aspects. We are not in control so why be negative. lol

I am not blaming one guy. I am just rightly pointing out that Atkins likely lied yesterday.

He essentially said he had no idea that Schneider was going to pull Berrios and pitch Kikuchi and he said it was Schneider’s decision. Yet Schneider said it was an organizational decision. So someone isn’t telling the truth.

As well, the reporters who follow the team daily (including pro-front office Wilner) don’t believe Atkins’version.

The comment that we are not in control so why be negative is condescending and silly. As a Jays fan since 1977, a buyer of Jays tickets, a subscriber to Rogers cable and phone services, I have a right to an opinion regarding the products they sell me. If it’s negative, so what? You have no control over my opinion. Why do you care? Why waste your time posting here? LOL

Bo and Whit also said it was an organizational decision. Pretty much everyone except Atkins said it was an organizational decision.

One of the biggest issues I have with the front office is they chastised Alex A for not building a solid pipeline of talent. Shapiro and Atkins both promised to build a ‘sustainable’ pipeline of talent within their minor league system which will allow them to build from within. Yet the Jays farm system is not particularly strong. Instead we’ve been relying on trades and free agent signings to build our roster. There isn’t an abundance of draft capital within the organization.

Raps in 4 wrote:
Bo and Whit also said it was an organizational decision. Pretty much everyone except Atkins said it was an organizational decision.

Sounds like there is more than 0 evidence that Schneider didn’t make the decision by himself like Atkins suggested.

C Court wrote:One of the biggest issues I have with the front office is they chastised Alex A for not building a solid pipeline of talent. Shapiro and Atkins both promised to build a ‘sustainable’ pipeline of talent within their minor league system which will allow them to build from within. Yet the Jays farm system is not particularly strong. Instead we’ve been relying on trades and free agent signings to build our roster. There isn’t an abundance of draft capital within the organization.

They chastised AA, yet three of the team's core pieces they rely on today (Vladdy, Jansen, and Romano) were AA draft picks/signings. Their draft record has certainly been underwhelming. Bo is a stud, but other than that, it's been rather unimpressive. Kirk had an incredible half season, but was that the real Kirk or was that an outlier? Manoah had an incredible 1.5 seasons, but now he's the worst starter in baseball. Can he bounce back? Moreno got us Varsho, but how good is Varsho really? He had a fantastic 2022 campaign, but he failed to replicate it this year.

Our farm system is currently ranked in the bottom third of the league. Tiedemann is the only elite prospect we have who is somewhat close to being MLB-ready.

They essentially went the AA route of building through trades/free agency, but they haven't achieved the same results (0 playoff wins). And it's not like this team is particularly sustainable either. Gausman, Bassitt, and Springer are all in their 30s, with no one in line to replace them when they start declining. We've also lost core pieces like Semien and Chapman to free agency (without replacing them internally).

With the Yankees and Red Sox always being a spending spree away from returning to contention, we run the very real risk of finding ourselves out of the playoffs next season (and beyond).

Wow. I missed the Atkins presser and aftermath. Near universal condemnation of this guy. Weasel is right as Centre court said.

Rosie is right it should be Shapiro, but Rogers probably like his business side too much. Hopefully Shapiro at least has the guts to get rid of Ross. We need a new voice on the baseball side.

It will look weird though that Atkins was given this chance to try to skew things his way, ie lie, and then next week Shapiro cans him

dafan590 wrote:Blue Jays need to get rid of Shapiro, Atkins and Schneider.

Do you guys have any suggestions on who should replace them?

I said it countless times before, but he is currently employed in the organization. You promote James Click (current VP of baseball strategy) who won the World Series just last year as the GM of the Astros. In 3 years in Houston, he had three ALCS appearances, 2

World Series Appearances, and winning just last year. The only reason he left is because he had tension with the owner Jim Crane, who only offered him an one year deal after winning a Championship. Click also came up the Rays organization, and was a part of the Rays Front Office when Tampa had 4 straight seasons of 90 wins on one of the lowest payrolls in MLB.

I hope for the sake of the team it was an organizational / from above move, because if there was any doubt, even the slimmest of doubt on the players that this was Johhn Schneider thought process or decision, he's lost the room. How can he look Berrios in the eye going forward and vice versa, knowning this dude took me out when i was dealing.

So hopefully it's Atkins lying, but either way it's terrible, even if Atkins is telling the truth, and it was all John Schneider, so you had Seattle disaster from a year ago, when he was burning bullpen and putting relievers in new positions that they hadn't been all year, and got embarrassed. Then you have Kevin Guasman, who looked shaky in the first 3 innings, who looked he deserved to be pulled, not to mention the previous year, and now Berrios thing. So you have all that "data" and you said it's all coaches decision, and then decide to bring him back lol? You just look like the fool.

Mehar wrote:

dafan590 wrote:Blue Jays need to get rid of Shapiro, Atkins and Schneider.

Do you guys have any suggestions on who should replace them?

I said it countless times before, but he is currently employed in the organization. You promote James Click (current VP of baseball strategy) who won the World Series just last year as the GM of the Astros. In 3 years in Houston, he had three ALCS appearances, 2

World Series Appearances, and winning just last year. The only reason he left is because he had tension with the owner Jim Crane, who only offered him an one year deal after winning a Championship. Click also came up the Rays organization, and was a part of the Rays Front Office when Tampa had 4 straight seasons of 90 wins on one of the lowest payrolls in MLB.

It's entirely possible that Click suffers from the same myopia as Shatkins (they hired him so they must see eye-to-eye on things), but it's a risk worth taking given his pedigree.

johanliebert wrote:

Fairview4Life wrote:They aren’t above Atkins. There is just a fundamentally broken organizational communication structure and/or one of Schneider or Atkins is a lying liar who lies.

They’re above all Gm’s and managers. I’ve said this for years and my source is a former pro. You can be skeptical about atkins but Schneider? Lol he’s a puppet like any manager.

Within the corporate structure, they wouldnt be above the President, Shapiro, unless its from within Rogers. This would vary team to team. Don't think anyone here cares so much about the details just that whoever is responsible be held to account. Nothing so far.

Randle McMurphy wrote:

Read on Twitter

Wilner calls what Atkins did today an embarrassment and failure.

I am no fan of Wilner, but his podcast is the best commentary on Atkins’ colossal fail. Mike doesn’t hold back.

So,,, Shapiro, Click, Mattingly??

SharoneWright wrote:So,,, Shapiro, Click, Mattingly??

Yeah we hope, but it';ll be the same 3 for another year, and if things go off the rail...Shapiro can point to his renovations part 2, and get rid of Atkins/Schneider.

C Court wrote:I am not blaming one guy. I am just rightly pointing out that Atkins likely lied yesterday.

He essentially said he had no idea that Schneider was going to pull Berrios and pitch Kikuchi and he said it was Schneider’s decision. Yet Schneider said it was an organizational decision. So someone isn’t telling the truth.

As well, the reporters who follow the team daily (including pro-front office Wilner) don’t believe Atkins’version.
...

If Atkins lied, then he should be fired on the spot because he completely threw Schneider under the bus and no coach or player can ever trust Atkins again.

That said, I could see a scenario where Atkins may be technically truthful. He could've told Schneider that going by analytics is the team's default strategy and we strongly recommend you follow. But neverthless, you have discretion to overrule but you better be damn sure it's the right move.

Atkins thus would be technically right that ultimately it was Schneider's call. And Schneider is also right in saying it's an organization decision (that he did not overrule).

C Court wrote:

Randle McMurphy wrote:

Read on Twitter

Wilner calls what Atkins did today an embarrassment and failure.

I am no fan of Wilner, but his podcast is the best commentary on Atkins’ colossal fail. Mike doesn’t hold back.

Agreed, it was exactly what Atkins deserved for that display yesterday.

I also imagine if Atkins didn't specifically pick the Saturday of a long weekend to avoid blowback we'd also be hearing a lot more of this kind of talk right now from other media.

Tacoma wrote:

C Court wrote:I am not blaming one guy. I am just rightly pointing out that Atkins likely lied yesterday.

He essentially said he had no idea that Schneider was going to pull Berrios and pitch Kikuchi and he said it was Schneider’s decision. Yet Schneider said it was an organizational decision. So someone isn’t telling the truth.

As well, the reporters who follow the team daily (including pro-front office Wilner) don’t believe Atkins’version.
...

If Atkins lied, then he should be fired on the spot because he completely threw Schneider under the bus and no coach or player can ever trust Atkins again.

That said, I could see a scenario where Atkins may be technically truthful. He could've told Schneider that going by analytics is the team's default strategy and we strongly recommend you follow. But neverthless, you have discretion to overrule but you better be damn sure it's the right move.

Atkins thus would be technically right that ultimately it was Schneider's call. And Schneider is also right in saying it's an organization decision (that he did not overrule).

There is such a thing as lying by omission and Atkins spent the entire press conference doing exactly that.

C Court wrote:This is what I discovered from podcasts and articles written by Jays beat media, who are universally critical of Atkins.

Atkins is correct in that he does 'not' attend Schneider's pre-game planning meetings. But, Atkins has a front office representative attend every pre-game meeting on his behalf.

Does anyone really believe that Atkins has no input into what the front office employee says at Schneider's meeting or that Atkins is not de-briefed after the meeting - particularly in a win or go home play-off game?

As well, Atkins meets with Schneider after every game. Does anyone believe that Atkins didn't bring up the Berrios/Kikuchi strategy after losing game one?

Schneider says that it was an organizational decision, even though the coward Atkins says it was the manager's decision.

Who ya' gonna believe?

Yes, I looked up the guy Atkins referenced yesterday as the one sitting in on the meetings with the coaches. He's like 5-6 years out of university. There's not a chance anything that guy is preparing for these games isn't going directly up through Atkins at all times. Atkins clearly knew exactly what the plan was and gave it the go ahead.

C Court wrote:

LBJKB24MJ23 wrote:

C Court wrote:This is what I discovered from podcasts and articles written by Jays beat media, who are universally critical of Atkins.

Atkins is correct in that he does 'not' attend Schneider's pre-game planning meetings. But, Atkins has a front office representative attend every pre-game meeting on his behalf.

Does anyone really believe that Atkins has no input into what the front office employee says at Schneider's meeting or that Atkins is not de-briefed after the meeting - particularly in a win or go home play-off game?

As well, Atkins meets with Schneider after every game. Does anyone believe that Atkins didn't bring up the Berrios/Kikuchi strategy after losing game one?

Schneider says that it was an organizational decision, even though the coward Atkins says it was the manager's decision.

Who ya' gonna believe?

You, and most of the speculative fans here, have pretty much 0 evidence of such accusations of blaming 1 person.

Until or when the truth comes out, let’s see what the organization does in the off-season in terms of improving this ugly offense. They obviously need fine tuning of their analytics and the conclusions they are coming up with to warrant that change.

It seems that both Schneider and Atkins are back next year so I hope both improve in all aspects. We are not in control so why be negative. lol

I am not blaming one guy. I am just rightly pointing out that Atkins likely lied yesterday.

He essentially said he had no idea that Schneider was going to pull Berrios and pitch Kikuchi and he said it was Schneider’s decision. Yet Schneider said it was an organizational decision. So someone isn’t telling the truth.

As well, the reporters who follow the team daily (including pro-front office Wilner) don’t believe Atkins’version.

The comment that we are not in control so why be negative is condescending and silly. As a Jays fan since 1977, a buyer of Jays tickets, a subscriber to Rogers cable and phone services, I have a right to an opinion regarding the products they sell me. If it’s negative, so what? You have no control over my opinion. Why do you care? Why waste your time posting here? LOL

“I have the right to an opinion regarding the products they sell me”

“You have no control over my opinion, why do you care”

Okay old man yelling at cloud.