Breaking: Varsho in, Moreno, Gurriel out

[Mehar]

a couple of weeks lol

moreno's had enough time in the MLB and has yet to show he can hit the ball out of the infield with any consistency. at least kirk and varsho have proven to be able to do that in their careers.

I am talking about a 162 Game Regular Season in 2023 Sensi or Randle (no need to have two different accounts, just stick with 1 on here). Gurriel had a solid year overall last year (All-Star Appearance), including defensively in LF in terms of Defensive Runs Saved and other metrics. Moreno hit .284 last year as a Rookie which was above average, and had a higher OPS, On Base, and BA over both Kirk and Varsho. Moreno is a Second year player, while Kirk has been terrible since the second half of 2022; and Varsho sucked offensively last year in his 4th year.

Varsho has been a terrible hitter for his career. The numbers do not lie. Let's see what 2024 brings. Except for his one hot week hitting two weeks ago, Varsho is back in his mini slump. Are we comparing Gurriel vs. Varsho, and Kirk vs. Moreno like you wanted to do previously? How about Kirk's struggles? Eliminate his last game, and he had been more trash than Moreno this month.

You did not want to judge this trade after last year, when both Kirk and Varsho sucked offensively. You want to judge it now after one month in the second year, after Varsho had his hot week two weeks ago, and Moreno struggled to start this year. So you want to pretend that a 162 Game Season last year basically did not matter, when both Gurriel and Moreno were instrumental in playing a big part in a trip to the World Series for Arizona? You are laughable like your hero Mike Shillner.

PSA: Gabriel Moreno has not proven anything yet. I don't think you actually understand this.

When you say moronic things like: "Varsho has been a terrible hitter for his career", do you not understand that people have the internet?

In 2022 Varsho posted a 107 wRC+ in 151 games played. This is a better offensive season than anything that Moreno has done so far as a professional. Yes, this was a better offensive performance than Moreno's 103 wRC+ in 111 games last year, which is actually Moreno's only real data-point (no, his ~70 plate appearances sample as a Blue Jays does not count for anything). So what the hell are you even talking about? If Varsho has been "terrible", just what exactly do you think Moreno is? Mike Trout?

I've never seen someone try to beat their chest over 103 wRC+ last season, and 90 wRC+ this season with ZERO power. This is your god?

You better start praying that Moreno learns to hit the ball out of the infield sometime soon. He has a .108 ISO in his MLB career (164 games). That is....not good.

Varsho is around a career .225 hitter going into today. That to me to is a terrible hitter. He hit .188 in his Rookie Year, and .235 in 2022, which was also below average for that year and nothing special. I was mainly talking about the 2023 Season. Varsho was atrocious last year with a .220 BA and .674 OPS. Where is the lie and what is moronic about that?

I do not consider Moreno no God by the way. When you are trading the Best Catching Prospect in MLB who was a consensus top 3 Prospect at that time with 7 years of control, and throwing in Gurriel also who hit .290 in 2022, I expected more than a below average hitter in return like Varsho who in 2023 had a horrible BA, OPS, OBP, and Struck out a tonne to boot.

I am willing to see what Varsho does in 2024, but take out his one hot week in April where everyone got excited, and he has been terrible for the other 4 weeks offensively. However, Varsho is not even the main issue when you have guys like Kirk, Guerrero, Bichette, and Springer all well below their career numbers.

[spykelee]

Gabriel Moreno bobblehead night tonight. As far as I know, Kirk's never had a bobblehead. Zona wins the trade

[s e n s i]

with the dbacks losing their last 6 series and absolutely getting their faces filled in the last two games to the tune of a 28-2 aggregate score, you have to ask the question: does gabby moreno know how to call a game back there? though to his credit, he was the only dbacks player to drive in a run yesterday with his patented seeing-eye chopper through the infield.

[s e n s i]

btw, moreno and gurriel combined fWAR this season: 1.1
(corbin carroll, who some complained that we didn't acquire instead of varsho has a -0.1 fWAR, for the record)

varsho: 1.4

extremely likely that varsho ends up with a 5 fWAR season barring any significant IL stints, something that a few posters suggested was an inevitability before this season.

oof. tough scene for the light-hitting lovers and pina power fan club.

[Mehar]

btw, moreno and gurriel combined fWAR this season: 1.1
(corbin carroll, who some complained that we didn't acquire instead of varsho has a -0.1 fWAR, for the record)

varsho: 1.4

extremely likely that varsho ends up with a 5 fWAR season barring any significant IL stints, something that a few posters suggested was an inevitability before this season.

oof. tough scene for the light-hitting lovers and pina power fan club.

How were the numbers last year, when Moreno and Gurriel were instrumental in taking Arizona to the World Series and had both solid years? We had a 162 Game Season to evaluate that trade last year and the returns were awful; especially how Varsho performed offensively over a 162 Game Season and the Wild Card debacle, where this team did not win a game and Varsho was invisible. Gurriel had an All-Star first half, and Moreno won the Gold Glove and was Number 1 in Defensive WAR in MLB.

Now you are excited in year 2 after one month, after the trade was a disaster last year. We will see how Varsho performs the rest of the way. Take out his one week of good hitting in April, and Varsho is hitting below .200 the other 4 weeks. You make it seem like Varsho is hitting .300 and setting the league on fire. I still maintain whether you like it or not, that you should not trade the best Catching prospect in MLB (top 3 Prospect in MLB in Moreno at that time) and throw in Gurriel who hit .290 in 2022, for a below average hitter like Varsho (despite his great defense). Kiermaier had a better year than Varsho last year (won the Gold Glove also), and it did not cost you a Top 3 Premium prospect and Gurriel to acquire him (but only money in free agency).

[Randle McMurphy]

Read on Twitter

Imagine adding this guy to our current lineup situation

[Mehar]

Read on Twitter

Imagine adding this guy to our current lineup situation

As bad as Moreno as been (currently hitting .241, OPS .662), that is still a better than your Top 5 Catcher you love in Kirk (.194 BA, with OPS of .536) (LOL). Defensively in terms of controlling the opposing team's running game and throwing out runners stealing, it is not even a question who is better. Moreno with his struggles, still has a higher BA than your hero Varsho coming into the game (even after Varsho's hot April Week). That is saying something.

[s e n s i]

you're still using raw batting average in your arguments in the year 2024. if anything is saying something, it's that.

[s e n s i]

Defensively in terms of controlling the opposing team's running game and throwing out runners stealing, it is not even a question who is better.

you're absolutely right. kirk has been better this year.

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/catcher-throwing

factor in the framing and you nailed it, it's not even a question.

[s e n s i]

another element of this trade that's often overlooked is baserunning. absolutely hilarious that moreno is such an egregious and clueless baserunner that his BsR is on par with kirk despite the latter being the slowest baserunner in the league. you have to have very little idea what you're doing on the bases to achieve that, but most people, along with jays FO, knew this all along.

[Mehar]

Defensively in terms of controlling the opposing team's running game and throwing out runners stealing, it is not even a question who is better.

you're absolutely right. kirk has been better this year.

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/catcher-throwing

factor in the framing and you nailed it, it's not even a question.

Did you read the entire data? I presume you have eyes and can read what I am reading (LOL). The numbers actually look better for Moreno than Kirk overall. Only 7 Players have tried to steal Second Base from Moreno, compared to Kirk who had 14. Hence my point, he does a better job in controlling the opposing team's running game.

According to this data, Moreno has an arm strength of 81.5 MPH, compared to Kirk who has 75.5 MPH. He has the much better exchange time, pop time, the better CS% at 43 percent to 36 percent for Kirk. Moreno is also ranked Number 1 for catchers in CS Above average/throw at 0.27. What the hell were you trying to prove?

[s e n s i]

Defensively in terms of controlling the opposing team's running game and throwing out runners stealing, it is not even a question who is better.

you're absolutely right. kirk has been better this year.

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/catcher-throwing

factor in the framing and you nailed it, it's not even a question.

Did you read the entire data? I presume you have eyes and can read what I am reading (LOL). The numbers actually look better for Moreno than Kirk overall. Only 7 Players have tried to steal Second Base from Moreno, compared to Kirk who had 14. Hence my point, he does a better job in controlling the opposing team's running game.

oh yeah? you don't think pitchers have anything to do with how often opponents are trying to steal?

According to this data, Moreno has an arm strength of 81.5 MPH, compared to Kirk who has 75.5 MPH. He has the better exchange time, pop time, the better CS% time at 43 percent to 36 percent for Kirk. Moreno is also ranked Number 1 in CS Above average/throw at 0.27. What the hell were you trying to prove?

yeah, think i'm just gonna see who's ahead on that leaderboard, thanks. if moreno was better than he would be higher than kirk, yeah?

again, factor in the framing and kirk's been the better overall defensive catcher this season. it's not even a question, as you said.

[Mehar]

another element of this trade that's often overlooked is baserunning. absolutely hilarious that moreno is such an egregious and clueless baserunner that his BsR is on par with kirk despite the latter being the slowest baserunner in the league. you have to have very little idea what you're doing on the bases to achieve that, but most people, along with jays FO, knew this all along.

You are delusional as they come. Do you ever see Kirk on the bases? (LOL). He is the definition of egregious and clueless. I have seen Moreno score from Second Base on a single to the outfield last year. I have yet to see Fat Kirk ever score from Second Base on a Single.

Factor in Kirk's pathetic .564 OPS so far, and ever since the second half of 2022, he has been the definition of a light hitting, mediocre and slow catcher (the same description you use for Moreno). Hopefully, Kirk can win a Gold Glove or be Number 1 in Defensive WAR in MLB at some point in his career.

[Mehar]

Defensively in terms of controlling the opposing team's running game and throwing out runners stealing, it is not even a question who is better.

you're absolutely right. kirk has been better this year.

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/catcher-throwing

factor in the framing and you nailed it, it's not even a question.

Due to the fact you need assistance with Data being the delusional amateur you are. Baseball Prospectus (a much more credible site than the second tiered ones you rely on), has Moreno ranked higher than Fat Kirk after one month (factoring in framing, blocking, throwing, etc)., and looking at DRP.

https://www.baseballprospectus.com/leaderboards/fielding/

[s e n s i]

guy uses BA in an argument, calls another poster a "delusional amateur"

[Mehar]

guy uses BA in an argument, calls another poster a "delusional amateur"

Only delusional amateurs like you ignore BA. I put stock in BA, OPS, SLG, and ON Base in evaluating hitters. To a lesser extent RBI's. In all these categories Moreno was much higher over a 162 Regular Season than Fat Kirk in 2023. Moreno is also better in all these categories than Kirk after one month of this season.

We will see what 2024 brings after it is completed. You can only get the full picture when the season is done. Even I concede that Kirk cannot be this terrible over the regular season with his .564 OPS, and Moreno is also hitting .241 so far.

[Fairview4Life]

RBI's?

[Mehar]

RBI's?

Moreno had more RBI's than Kirk last year, but I put less stock in RBI's in general compared to stats like On Base, SLG, OPS, etc. If a good hitter routinely comes to the plate and the hitters in front of him cannot get on base; that ultimately impacts his ability to drive in Runs.

Thereby, ultimately impacting his RBI totals. RBI's still do matter but from my perspective, but I put less emphasis on them overall when judging hitters compared to other stats. You cannot as a hitter control what others in front of you do in the lineup (whether they get on base or in scoring position). Others may disagree, and that is fine.

[Fairview4Life]

…yes, I understand why RBIs are not a good tool to compare two different hitters. Which is why I questioned using them to do that.

[Mehar]

…yes, I understand why RBIs are not a good tool to compare two different hitters. Which is why I questioned using them to do that.

Okay makes sense. There is a reason why metrics like SLG and OPS do not factor in RBI's in their calculation. I am not saying you discount them completely, but there should be less of an emphasis on them overall. In the past even I used to put more stock into RBI's when comparing two different hitters, which was a mistake on my part.