GT: OPENING SERIES 2024 - TORONTO BLUE JAYS @ TAMPA BAY RAYS - THURS MARCH 28 (4:10pm EST) to SUN MARCH 31

[DelAbbot]

The Jays care so little about winning these games that they can’t have Kirk catch for 2 innings on his off day.

Not a serious org

It has nothing to do with about being a serious organization, but a consequence of your personnel decisions. It will result when you are relying on two catchers like Jansen and Kirk. Whether you say it is Bad Luck or that Jansen is made of Glass- the guy is injury prone every year. That is the one consistent and frustrating thing about him every year. Meanwhile Kirk requires to be load managed and needs his rest days (maybe due to his stamina/conditioning or fat and out of shape frame).

It would be nice if one our catchers was still Gabriel Moreno under team control for the next 6 seasons who lead MLB in Defensive War in 2023 as a Rookie- but evidently people like you and Ross Atkins felt that trading him for a below average hitting, Defensive outfielder like Varsho was the better move for this organization. That is why you are stuck relying on scrubs like Serven to be your backup catcher when Jansen is hurt, and Kirk needs his rest.

How is this a serious organization when Atkins can repeatedly spend sizable millions on sub replacement level players and still have a job?

Not to mention the lack of positional prospects over these years and offense that is now perennially underperforming

[Mehar]

The Jays care so little about winning these games that they can’t have Kirk catch for 2 innings on his off day.

Not a serious org

It has nothing to do with about being a serious organization, but a consequence of your personnel decisions. It will result when you are relying on two catchers like Jansen and Kirk. Whether you say it is Bad Luck or that Jansen is made of Glass- the guy is injury prone every year. That is the one consistent and frustrating thing about him every year. Meanwhile Kirk requires to be load managed and needs his rest days (maybe due to his stamina/conditioning or fat and out of shape frame).

It would be nice if one our catchers was still Gabriel Moreno under team control for the next 6 seasons who lead MLB in Defensive War in 2023 as a Rookie- but evidently people like you and Ross Atkins felt that trading him for a below average hitting, Defensive outfielder like Varsho was the better move for this organization. That is why you are stuck relying on scrubs like Serven to be your backup catcher when Jansen is hurt, and Kirk needs his rest.

Kirk is miles better than Moreno. Jays would be best served in playing him for two innings 2 days into the season with the game on the line

What a joke comment. Moreno in his Rookie Year offensively, had a much higher BA, OPS, SLG, On Base Percentage and RBI's than Kirk. The Supposed "Power Advantage" of Kirk which you repeatedly have cited had only 1 more Homer than Moreno, this despite Moreno being injured for a couple of weeks and playing 10 less games than Kirk.

Defensively, Moreno blew Kirk out of the Water, with his Cannon arm throwing Runners out, Gold Glove as a Rookie, and leading MLB in Defensive War as a Rookie at the age of 23. I know it hurts being wrong about the ridiculous Varsho trade you supported which was an overpay, but saying Kirk is Miles better than Moreno, is an example of a man saying something outlandish to make himself feel better. Something that Mike Shillner would say to kiss up to the front office, and to stay in their good graces.

[Randle McMurphy]

It has nothing to do with about being a serious organization, but a consequence of your personnel decisions. It will result when you are relying on two catchers like Jansen and Kirk. Whether you say it is Bad Luck or that Jansen is made of Glass- the guy is injury prone every year. That is the one consistent and frustrating thing about him every year. Meanwhile Kirk requires to be load managed and needs his rest days (maybe due to his stamina/conditioning or fat and out of shape frame).

It would be nice if one our catchers was still Gabriel Moreno under team control for the next 6 seasons who lead MLB in Defensive War in 2023 as a Rookie- but evidently people like you and Ross Atkins felt that trading him for a below average hitting, Defensive outfielder like Varsho was the better move for this organization. That is why you are stuck relying on scrubs like Serven to be your backup catcher when Jansen is hurt, and Kirk needs his rest.

Kirk is miles better than Moreno. Jays would be best served in playing him for two innings 2 days into the season with the game on the line

What a joke comment. Moreno in his Rookie Year offensively, had a much higher BA, OPS, SLG, On Base Percentage and RBI's than Kirk. The Supposed "Power Advantage" of Kirk which you repeatedly have cited had only 1 more Homer than Moreno, this despite Moreno being injured for a couple of weeks and playing 10 less games than Kirk.

Defensively, Moreno blew Kirk out of the Water, with his Cannon arm throwing Runners out, Gold Glove as a Rookie, and leading MLB in Defensive War as a Rookie at the age of 23. I know it hurts being wrong about the ridiculous Varsho trade you supported which was an overpay, but saying Kirk is Miles better than Moreno, is an example of a man saying something outlandish to make himself feel better. Something that Mike Shillner would say to kiss up to the front office, and to stay in their good graces.

There's not one aspect of baseball that the overrated fraud Moreno is better at than Kirk. Not a single one. Time to stop being hung up over a guy who would literally be the 3rd best catcher on the roster had he stayed around.

[ItsDanger]

Jays are paying the price for poor drafting in recent years. Even prospects that were drafted early but traded haven't done much elsewhere. The best Jays seasons were built on a foundation of young prospects.

[DelAbbot]

Jays are paying the price for poor drafting in recent years. Even prospects that were drafted early but traded haven't done much elsewhere. The best Jays seasons were built on a foundation of young prospects.

I remember when Austin Martin fell to us and we all thought he was the CF Bo Bichette

[Randle McMurphy]

Jays are paying the price for poor drafting in recent years. Even prospects that were drafted early but traded haven't done much elsewhere. The best Jays seasons were built on a foundation of young prospects.

I remember when Austin Martin fell to us and we all thought he was the CF Bo Bichette

The Austin Martin pick worked out quite well for us actually.

[DelAbbot]

Jays are paying the price for poor drafting in recent years. Even prospects that were drafted early but traded haven't done much elsewhere. The best Jays seasons were built on a foundation of young prospects.

I remember when Austin Martin fell to us and we all thought he was the CF Bo Bichette

The Austin Martin pick worked out quite well for us actually.

Yes it did, considering what he is now. This is why I say this FO has a strong major league scouting / analytics department but has 0 ability in developing positional prospects (since Cherrington left)

[ItsDanger]

Jays are paying the price for poor drafting in recent years. Even prospects that were drafted early but traded haven't done much elsewhere. The best Jays seasons were built on a foundation of young prospects.

I remember when Austin Martin fell to us and we all thought he was the CF Bo Bichette

Liked his bat but the criticism early about lack of power has been shown to be 100% accurate.

[Mehar]

Kirk is miles better than Moreno. Jays would be best served in playing him for two innings 2 days into the season with the game on the line

What a joke comment. Moreno in his Rookie Year offensively, had a much higher BA, OPS, SLG, On Base Percentage and RBI's than Kirk. The Supposed "Power Advantage" of Kirk which you repeatedly have cited had only 1 more Homer than Moreno, this despite Moreno being injured for a couple of weeks and playing 10 less games than Kirk.

Defensively, Moreno blew Kirk out of the Water, with his Cannon arm throwing Runners out, Gold Glove as a Rookie, and leading MLB in Defensive War as a Rookie at the age of 23. I know it hurts being wrong about the ridiculous Varsho trade you supported which was an overpay, but saying Kirk is Miles better than Moreno, is an example of a man saying something outlandish to make himself feel better. Something that Mike Shillner would say to kiss up to the front office, and to stay in their good graces.

There's not one aspect of baseball that the overrated fraud Moreno is better at than Kirk. Not a single one. Time to stop being hung up over a guy who would literally be the 3rd best catcher on the roster had he stayed around.

Yeah Moreno is an overrated fraud, who lead all of MLB in Defensive War last year as a 23 year old Rookie, and won the Gold Glove in his first year (lol). A fraud who was better in every offensive and defensive metric than Fat Kirk, who you love and needs his rest days on a consistent basis. The fraud is this front office and the people like you who support the moves they have made.

A front office who have mismanaged their premium assets like Moreno, possess a joke farm system, spent millions on scratching signings like IKF, and possess a bloated payroll of 247 milliion. Evidently, you will also fit well as a role on the Jays Propaganda team alongside Mike Shillner saying Kirk is Miles better than Moreno, when all the numbers and data from 2023 say otherwise. Keep making yourself feel better when in the face of data, you continue to make foolish statements.

[Randle McMurphy]

What a joke comment. Moreno in his Rookie Year offensively, had a much higher BA, OPS, SLG, On Base Percentage and RBI's than Kirk. The Supposed "Power Advantage" of Kirk which you repeatedly have cited had only 1 more Homer than Moreno, this despite Moreno being injured for a couple of weeks and playing 10 less games than Kirk.

Defensively, Moreno blew Kirk out of the Water, with his Cannon arm throwing Runners out, Gold Glove as a Rookie, and leading MLB in Defensive War as a Rookie at the age of 23. I know it hurts being wrong about the ridiculous Varsho trade you supported which was an overpay, but saying Kirk is Miles better than Moreno, is an example of a man saying something outlandish to make himself feel better. Something that Mike Shillner would say to kiss up to the front office, and to stay in their good graces.

There's not one aspect of baseball that the overrated fraud Moreno is better at than Kirk. Not a single one. Time to stop being hung up over a guy who would literally be the 3rd best catcher on the roster had he stayed around.

Yeah Moreno is an overrated fraud, who lead all of MLB in Defensive War last year as a 23 year old Rookie, and won the Gold Glove in his first year (lol). A fraud who was better in every offensive and defensive metric than Fat Kirk, who you love and needs his rest days. The fraud is this front office and the people like you who support it,

who have mismanaged their premium assets like Moreno, possess a joke farm system, spent millions on scratching signings like IKF, and possess a bloated payroll of 247 milliion. Evidently, you will also fit well as a role on the Jays Propaganda team alongside Mike Shillner.

https://www.fangraphs.com/projections?pos=c&stats=bat&type=thebat

You might want to check out where the projections rank these guys in WAR coming into this year (Kirk 6th, Jansen 15th, and Moreno 35th). The guy sucks man. He's a no-hit defensive specialist without any power. Time to move on from this bum already instead of harping on him ever thread as if he's actually good and some kind of upgrade on what they already have.

[DelAbbot]

There's not one aspect of baseball that the overrated fraud Moreno is better at than Kirk. Not a single one. Time to stop being hung up over a guy who would literally be the 3rd best catcher on the roster had he stayed around.

Yeah Moreno is an overrated fraud, who lead all of MLB in Defensive War last year as a 23 year old Rookie, and won the Gold Glove in his first year (lol). A fraud who was better in every offensive and defensive metric than Fat Kirk, who you love and needs his rest days. The fraud is this front office and the people like you who support it,

who have mismanaged their premium assets like Moreno, possess a joke farm system, spent millions on scratching signings like IKF, and possess a bloated payroll of 247 milliion. Evidently, you will also fit well as a role on the Jays Propaganda team alongside Mike Shillner.

https://www.fangraphs.com/projections?pos=c&stats=bat&type=thebat

You might want to check out where the projections rank these guys in WAR coming into this year (Kirk 6th, Jansen 15th, and Moreno 35th). The guy sucks man. He's a no-hit defensive specialist without any power. Time to move on from this bum already instead of harping on him ever thread as if he's actually good and some kind of upgrade on what they already have.

You might want to compare current Moreno to 2nd year Kirk. Different stage in their development / careers

[Randle McMurphy]

Yeah Moreno is an overrated fraud, who lead all of MLB in Defensive War last year as a 23 year old Rookie, and won the Gold Glove in his first year (lol). A fraud who was better in every offensive and defensive metric than Fat Kirk, who you love and needs his rest days. The fraud is this front office and the people like you who support it,

who have mismanaged their premium assets like Moreno, possess a joke farm system, spent millions on scratching signings like IKF, and possess a bloated payroll of 247 milliion. Evidently, you will also fit well as a role on the Jays Propaganda team alongside Mike Shillner.

https://www.fangraphs.com/projections?pos=c&stats=bat&type=thebat

You might want to check out where the projections rank these guys in WAR coming into this year (Kirk 6th, Jansen 15th, and Moreno 35th). The guy sucks man. He's a no-hit defensive specialist without any power. Time to move on from this bum already instead of harping on him ever thread as if he's actually good and some kind of upgrade on what they already have.

You might want to compare current Moreno to 2nd year Kirk. Different stage in their development / careers

What would be the point of doing that? Current Kirk against current Moreno is the only thing that matters for this team and current Kirk is miles better than the guy.

That may not be the case five years from now, but we won't know about whether Moreno actually develops an offensive game for a while.

[Mehar]

What a fool. Focusing on 2024 projections versus actual data over a course of a regular season. Projections mean nothing in the grand scheme of things, since they are all guesses. I seen projections last year how Varsho was going to excel at the Rogers Centre offensively. He was atrocious offensively. Focusing on the actual data from 2023, Moreno was better in every offensive and defensive metric than Fat Kirk (except hitting one less homer in ten games) but you call him an overrated fraud.

Then you insist Kirk is Miles better, when all the numbers say otherwise. I guess "Actual Data" of BA, OPS, SLG, On Base Percentage, throwing Runners Out, Defensive WAR, from the 2023 season does not mean much to you, since it makes you look ridiculous when comparing Moreno vs. Kirk.

Frauds are people like you that use so called "Projections" over actual data. You are in the same boat as Ross Atkins, mentioning their "projections" for players like Varsho as the reason why last year's team was going to be good offensively as the 2022 Jays with Varsho replacing the production of Teoscar Hernandez (which was not the case).

[Randle McMurphy]

What a fool. Focusing on 2024 projections versus actual data over a course of a regular season. Projections mean nothing in the grand scheme of things, since they are all guesses. I seen projections last year how Varsho was going to excel at the Rogers Centre offensively. He was atrocious offensively. Focusing on the actual data from 2023, Moreno was better in every offensive and defensive metric than Fat Kirk, but you call him an overrated fraud.

Frauds are people like you that use so called "Projections" over actual data. You are in the same boat as Ross Atkins, mentioning their "projections" for players last Spring Training as the reason why last year's team was going to be good offensively as the 2022 Jays with Varsho replacing the production of Teoscar Hernandez (which was not the case).

He's an overrated defensive specialist and clearly would have been the 3rd best at his position had he stayed on the roster. All of the underlying metrics suggest that much.

Let's see how many times you can throw him in every single thread this year out of context though, I'm sure you'll do your best.

[Mehar]

What a fool. Focusing on 2024 projections versus actual data over a course of a regular season. Projections mean nothing in the grand scheme of things, since they are all guesses. I seen projections last year how Varsho was going to excel at the Rogers Centre offensively. He was atrocious offensively. Focusing on the actual data from 2023, Moreno was better in every offensive and defensive metric than Fat Kirk, but you call him an overrated fraud.

Frauds are people like you that use so called "Projections" over actual data. You are in the same boat as Ross Atkins, mentioning their "projections" for players last Spring Training as the reason why last year's team was going to be good offensively as the 2022 Jays with Varsho replacing the production of Teoscar Hernandez (which was not the case).

He's an overrated defensive specialist and clearly would have been the 3rd best at his position had he stayed on the roster. All of the underlying metrics suggest that much.

Let's see how many times you can throw him in every single thread this year out of context though, I'm sure you'll do your best.

Moreno being Number 1 in MLB in Defensive WAR as a Rookie, and winning the Gold Glove as a 23 year old Rookie is overrated defensively I guess (lol). Let's see how many times you continue to make ridiculous comments like how Kirk is Miles better than than Moreno. When Moreno had a much higher BA, OPS, SLG, RBI'S and On Base Percentage than Kirk offensively. Those metrics do not mean anything I guess? Same with Moreno's excellent defensive numbers.

So, I guess we should disregard all the numbers from the 2023 season where Moreno was Miles better than Fat Kirk, to make yourself feel better. Continue to do your best Mike Shillner impression. Looking like a fool who is presented with actual data, disregards all the data and defensive/offensive stats of Moreno vs Kirk from 2023 in favour of so called "projections" (lol). What a clown.

[Randle McMurphy]

What a fool. Focusing on 2024 projections versus actual data over a course of a regular season. Projections mean nothing in the grand scheme of things, since they are all guesses. I seen projections last year how Varsho was going to excel at the Rogers Centre offensively. He was atrocious offensively. Focusing on the actual data from 2023, Moreno was better in every offensive and defensive metric than Fat Kirk, but you call him an overrated fraud.

Frauds are people like you that use so called "Projections" over actual data. You are in the same boat as Ross Atkins, mentioning their "projections" for players last Spring Training as the reason why last year's team was going to be good offensively as the 2022 Jays with Varsho replacing the production of Teoscar Hernandez (which was not the case).

He's an overrated defensive specialist and clearly would have been the 3rd best at his position had he stayed on the roster. All of the underlying metrics suggest that much.

Let's see how many times you can throw him in every single thread this year out of context though, I'm sure you'll do your best.

Being Number 1 in MLB in Defensive WAR as a Rookie, and winning the Gold Glove as a 23 year old Rookie is overrated defensively I guess (lol). Let's see how many times you continue to make ridiculous comments like how Kirk is Miles better than than Moreno. When Moreno had a much higher BA, OPS, SLG, RBI'S and On Base Percentage than Kirk offensively. Those metrics do not mean anything I guess? Same with Moreno's excellent defensive numbers.

So, I guess we should disregard all the numbers from the 2023 season where Moreno was Miles better than Fat Kirk. Continue to do your best Mike Shillner impression. A fool who is presented with data, disregards all the data and stats from 2023 in favour of so called "projections" (lol). What a clown.

Imagine crying this much two years later about a guy who projects as the #35 catcher in baseball this year when you have a top 5-10 catcher in MLB already on the roster (and another top 15 one backing him up). The obsession over such a mediocrity is unparalled.

[Randle McMurphy]

This would be like if Raptors fans were shoehorning references to Jonas Valanciunas in every thread that had nothing to do with him (and maybe worse because Moreno hasn't actually done anything of note in this league yet?). Absolutely bizarre.

[Mehar]

Imagine disregarding actual offensive/defensive data over the course of a full 162 game season, and focusing on so called "projections" to make yourself look less ridiculous. Something fools do, to make themselves feel better when they have been exposed as frauds over their bad baseball takes over the years. The definition fits you perfectly. In the same boat as your hero Mike Shillner.

[Mehar]

This would be like if Raptors fans were shoehorning references to Jonas Valanciunas in every thread that had nothing to do with him (and maybe worse because Moreno hasn't actually done anything of note in this league yet?). Absolutely bizarre.

I have no desire to bring up Moreno's name on a repeated basis. Kirk hasn't actually done anything of note either. Even less than Moreno, since Kirk has no Gold Glove. It all started with your ridiculous take this evening on how Kirk is Miles better than Moreno (when all the 2023 Offensive and Defensive Metrics says otherwise).

You called Moreno an overrated defensive fraud (when he was Number 1 in MLB in Defensive WAR, and won the Gold Glove as a 23 year old Rookie). You can support your Man Crush Daulton Varsho and stand by your comments of loving the terrible Moreno/Gurriel Varsho trade, while not trying to tear down Moreno with ridiculous comments.


Ignoring Moreno, Gurriel has been one of the best hitters in MLB the first three games also. I also pointed out how this team should have signed Gurriel in the off-season to play LF, and to have Varsho in CF to maximize his value. I was just criticizing how this front office in Year 9 has a 247 million luxury tax payroll (7th highest in MLB, and two million behind the World Champs Texas), have mismanaged their premium assets in general like Moreno, have a bottom tier farm system, and spent money poorly from my perspective (throwing 15 million to IKF). You may disagree but that is fine. No need to make ridiculous takes to make yourself feel better when discussing Moreno.

[ItsDanger]

Jays have at best average or well below average production at 4 of 9 lineup spots. Maybe more sometimes. It doesn't take a genius to determine the offense is going to struggle. They need to make a trade if they're serious.