RealGM

THE J0KER wrote:

Mickey8 wrote:team is playing horrible since Millsap is back into line up

Yes, but looking all these matches game by game you will realize that Millsap alone has nothing with this collapse. It is all coach Malone mistake which uses Millsap comeback as an excuse to destroy the offensive system which worked so well in February (including February of 2017).

If you want to see what it means a negative impact of an incompetent coach on a young player, just look at the Nikola Jokic and Gary Harris 4th quarter stats this season. We talked on this forum many times about all these embarrassing Jokic substitutes during the final quarter, or how Harris team role is suddenly downgraded (mostly in favor of Barton) once when the final quarter starts. And these young guys are not the robots, negative influence and damage to their self-confidence in 4th quarters are obvious, and thanks to coach Malone malicious strategy they are not the same players in a final quarter like they used to be in the rest of the match. You can see how they dropped in points compared to other quarters, how their shooting percentages go bad, and without freedom and under negative pressure, Jokic assists going down and turnovers rise notably.


Now in March, we have a case of the downgraded role of Jokic and Murray, and instant effect on their whole game production (not on just particular period) is obvious. In March Jokic is 22-11-9 (ts%68%), and Murray is 17-4-4 (ts%66%), but so far in March Jokic is 7-7-8 (ts%41%) and Murray is 10-2-3 (ts%51%). Should we blame players for this young core meltdown or coach Malone who initiate without any reason by unnecessary changes which have a sense only in his mind?

At the end Malone is the one who should be able to integrate Jokic and Millsap successfully , can he instruct Millsap to not hinder Jokic while he's running the team offense , does he has the guts to tell Millsap in the face that he's the Jokic's sidekick ??? I don't think so , he will cozy to Millsap on the expense of not making the play offs, he never learns on his mistakes, and there are plenty of evidence to support that claim .

Richard Miller wrote:

But when Denver does things Malone’s preferred way they are a lesser team for it; they are not built for the way he wants to coach, and his way makes them worse at the only thing they’re great at. How long can that continue?

Time is running out for the players to bridge the gap with their coach.

https://www.denverstiffs.com/2018/3/7/17091694/trust-issues-in-the-mile-high-city-denver-nuggets-nikola-jokic-michael-malone

Good read! Thanks.

Richard Miller wrote:

But when Denver does things Malone’s preferred way they are a lesser team for it; they are not built for the way he wants to coach, and his way makes them worse at the only thing they’re great at. How long can that continue?

Time is running out for the players to bridge the gap with their coach.

https://www.denverstiffs.com/2018/3/7/17091694/trust-issues-in-the-mile-high-city-denver-nuggets-nikola-jokic-michael-malone

Outstanding article - sure does show the disconnect nicely. Not sure I agree with the brief part about Jokic's defense. It implies he doesn't make an effort on defense. I think he does make the effort. He's always trying to help others, but he's ineffective and that is probably because of poor teaching IMO.

The paragraph that is so very significant is

Here are the defensive ratings of Malone-coached teams in full seasons, including this year: 26th, 29th, 24th, 23rd. Those are his credentials as a defensive head coach. How do you sell a young squad on your defensive principles if those principles haven’t worked without All-Star-caliber defenders?

So the Nuggets' best offense is when Malone isn't involved and their best defense doesn't exist. Can someone please tell me why he is still our head coach? Is it solely because he does well in interviews?

Yeah, those numbers are pretty sobering, a coach who prides himself on the defense, yet his team's defense is firmly bottom 5 in the league, and offense-wise he's nothing to write home about.

Nikola Jokic has a great night tonight, and more importantly, he runs Denver offense once again. But even in such game where everything seems on the place, you can still notice something irrational in Malone's Joker treatment. I will not complain this time why he is unnecessarily benched in last 10 seconds of the game, but about something which have a much bigger impact on the game result.

Jokic has an almost perfect shooting night tonight vs Cleveland with 12-14 FG% and 10-11 FT% and scored 36 points. Chandler has worst game in weeks with just 1-8 FG% and defensively he was hopeless vs LeBron. So why Jokic, in such important game, playing on MVP level played just 33 minutes, unlike terrible Chandler which played 36 minutes?!? LeBron also has MVP game tonight (scored 39 with good FG%), and he played 39 minutes, 6 more than Nikola, despite for Cavs this match was less important than for Nuggets.

So my question is, if we ignore overtime matches, what type of game Jokic must have to get 35 minutes from Malone? In that match when he scored 41 pts this season Jokic played just 31 minutes, in that historic 30-15-17 triple-double vs Bucks Nikola played just 34 minutes, and tonight when he can't miss the shot he played 33 minutes... In just 10 days, between December 21st and December 31st, Jokic played 5 games in the row with 36+ minutes on the floor and proved he can do that without a problem, but in the rest of the season, he has only 5 other such 36+ games. Will Barton which is our bench player has even 7 games over 41+ minutes (Nikola just 2 over 38+), Harris has 20+ games over 37+ minutes... etc... why?

THE J0KER wrote:So my question is, if we ignore overtime matches, what type of game Jokic must have to get 35 minutes from Malone? In that match when he scored 41 pts this season Jokic played just 31 minutes, in that historic 30-15-17 triple-double vs Bucks Nikola played just 34 minutes, and tonight when he can't miss the shot he played 33 minutes... In just 10 days, between December 21st and December 31st, Jokic played 5 games in the row with 36+ minutes on the floor and proved he can do that without a problem, but in the rest of the season, he has only 5 other such 36+ games. Will Barton which is our bench player has even 7 games over 41+ minutes (Nikola just 2 over 38+), Harris has 20+ games over 37+ minutes... etc... why?

To get more minutes, Jokic needs to get into better shape. He starts to look very tired after long stretches. He's better than last year, but still not capable of playing hard for much more than 32 minutes.

I'm kinda tired of the Nuggets too cant blame Jokic for it.

MidMountain wrote:

THE J0KER wrote:So my question is, if we ignore overtime matches, what type of game Jokic must have to get 35 minutes from Malone? In that match when he scored 41 pts this season Jokic played just 31 minutes, in that historic 30-15-17 triple-double vs Bucks Nikola played just 34 minutes, and tonight when he can't miss the shot he played 33 minutes... In just 10 days, between December 21st and December 31st, Jokic played 5 games in the row with 36+ minutes on the floor and proved he can do that without a problem, but in the rest of the season, he has only 5 other such 36+ games. Will Barton which is our bench player has even 7 games over 41+ minutes (Nikola just 2 over 38+), Harris has 20+ games over 37+ minutes... etc... why?

To get more minutes, Jokic needs to get into better shape. He starts to look very tired after long stretches. He's better than last year, but still not capable of playing hard for much more than 32 minutes.

Jokic played yesterday all 12 minutes in 3rd quarter. Nuggets finished that period with an impressive 11-0 run in last 3 and half minutes where Jokic scored 8 out of these last 11 points and played well in defense, so I didn't notice any kind of tiredness you talking about. So real question is why after such monster game Nikola played in 3rd quarter Malone waited about 5 minutes left in the final quarter to finally back him on the court? LeBron and Jokic are both brilliant yesterday, but what makes difference at the end is 6 extra minutes LBJ played more than Jokic on the court (39 vs 33). You must be Malone to not realize that!

Cousins always looked tired and gassed but he was always logging heavy minutes, but then again he just had horrible injury.

THE J0KER wrote:

MidMountain wrote:

THE J0KER wrote:So my question is, if we ignore overtime matches, what type of game Jokic must have to get 35 minutes from Malone? In that match when he scored 41 pts this season Jokic played just 31 minutes, in that historic 30-15-17 triple-double vs Bucks Nikola played just 34 minutes, and tonight when he can't miss the shot he played 33 minutes... In just 10 days, between December 21st and December 31st, Jokic played 5 games in the row with 36+ minutes on the floor and proved he can do that without a problem, but in the rest of the season, he has only 5 other such 36+ games. Will Barton which is our bench player has even 7 games over 41+ minutes (Nikola just 2 over 38+), Harris has 20+ games over 37+ minutes... etc... why?

To get more minutes, Jokic needs to get into better shape. He starts to look very tired after long stretches. He's better than last year, but still not capable of playing hard for much more than 32 minutes.

Jokic played yesterday all 12 minutes in 3rd quarter. Nuggets finished that period with an impressive 11-0 run in last 3 and half minutes where Jokic scored 8 out of these last 11 points and played well in defense, so I didn't notice any kind of tiredness you talking about. So real question is why after such monster game Nikola played in 3rd quarter Malone waited about 5 minutes left in the final quarter to finally back him on the court? LeBron and Jokic are both brilliant yesterday, but what makes difference at the end is 6 extra minutes LBJ played more than Jokic on the court (39 vs 33). You must be Malone to not realize that!

I think I've figured out why Malone doesn't like playing Jokic during crucial stretches (or at least limits his minutes late in games). It's because Malone likes to control things and Jokic plays best when Malone isn't calling plays. (Seems like that's true of Murray too.)

THE J0KER wrote:

MidMountain wrote:

THE J0KER wrote:So my question is, if we ignore overtime matches, what type of game Jokic must have to get 35 minutes from Malone? In that match when he scored 41 pts this season Jokic played just 31 minutes, in that historic 30-15-17 triple-double vs Bucks Nikola played just 34 minutes, and tonight when he can't miss the shot he played 33 minutes... In just 10 days, between December 21st and December 31st, Jokic played 5 games in the row with 36+ minutes on the floor and proved he can do that without a problem, but in the rest of the season, he has only 5 other such 36+ games. Will Barton which is our bench player has even 7 games over 41+ minutes (Nikola just 2 over 38+), Harris has 20+ games over 37+ minutes... etc... why?

To get more minutes, Jokic needs to get into better shape. He starts to look very tired after long stretches. He's better than last year, but still not capable of playing hard for much more than 32 minutes.

Jokic played yesterday all 12 minutes in 3rd quarter. Nuggets finished that period with an impressive 11-0 run in last 3 and half minutes where Jokic scored 8 out of these last 11 points and played well in defense, so I didn't notice any kind of tiredness you talking about. So real question is why after such monster game Nikola played in 3rd quarter Malone waited about 5 minutes left in the final quarter to finally back him on the court? LeBron and Jokic are both brilliant yesterday, but what makes difference at the end is 6 extra minutes LBJ played more than Jokic on the court (39 vs 33). You must be Malone to not realize that!

Jokic was dragging his feet against the Mavericks. I'm guessing he was held out of the first half of the fourth of last night's game because he was too worn down. Malone has to limit Jokic's minutes to not tire him out too much. Lebron played more than Jokic because he is in much better shape. He can play effectively for 39 minutes. Jokic cannot.

MidMountain wrote:

THE J0KER wrote:

MidMountain wrote:
To get more minutes, Jokic needs to get into better shape. He starts to look very tired after long stretches. He's better than last year, but still not capable of playing hard for much more than 32 minutes.

Jokic played yesterday all 12 minutes in 3rd quarter. Nuggets finished that period with an impressive 11-0 run in last 3 and half minutes where Jokic scored 8 out of these last 11 points and played well in defense, so I didn't notice any kind of tiredness you talking about. So real question is why after such monster game Nikola played in 3rd quarter Malone waited about 5 minutes left in the final quarter to finally back him on the court? LeBron and Jokic are both brilliant yesterday, but what makes difference at the end is 6 extra minutes LBJ played more than Jokic on the court (39 vs 33). You must be Malone to not realize that!

Jokic was dragging his feet against the Mavericks. I'm guessing he was held out of the first half of the fourth of last night's game because he was too worn down. Malone has to limit Jokic's minutes to not tire him out too much. Lebron played more than Jokic because he is in much better shape. He can play effectively for 39 minutes. Jokic cannot.

Perhaps you are right, but Jokic is not a speed burner, running all over the court. He does not do a lot of leaping and we were treated to videos of his summer workouts (rather impressive if you ask me). I suspect he could play more minutes than he gets simply because of the style he plays. I remember the year Wilt Chamberlain played every minute of every game, including overtime. (Although Jokic does run the offensive breaks now and then, so there is a difference.)

Wasn’t sure where to post this, but for the “Millsap’s return is killing us” crowd:

?s=21

Check what was team record prior Millsap comeback , especially in February .

Mickey8 wrote:Check what was team record prior Millsap comeback , especially in February .

Well, before he was injured we were winning at a .600 clip, much better than we are now.

Look at the other #3-10 West contenders: Davis, Cousins and Holiday already played 20+ games over 38+ minutes each, Westbrook and George both, Butler and KAT both (+Wiggins), Lillard and CJ McCollum both (2 matches shy actually)... etc... and Nikola not played 20+ but just 2 (just TWO) such min38+ matches so far this season!? Jokic game style is injury low-risk type of game, with not too much high jumps, dunks, fast running or blocking opponents, and is based on his BBIQ, not physical skills. A significant drop in numbers which he (and Gary Harris) have in the 4th quarter is not the product of tiredness and fatigue, but lack of freedom in last periods where Malone calls often his conservative actions which not suits to this young core and kills Nikola (and Gary) game.

This season Jokic averaging 31:30 minutes. In matches when he playing under 32 minutes Denver record is negative 11-13, in matches where he plays 32+ minutes Denver record is 21-12 great. Last season Nikola averaging 28 minutes, and in games where he played under 29 minutes Nuggets record is 17-23 bad, but in matches where Nikola played 29+ minutes, Denver record was 21-13 great. What other proofs do we need to realize that Nuggets need at least 2mpg Nikola Jokic more on the court than Malone gives him chance using some irrational logic and criteria when it comes to minutes distribution? Nikola is an all-star player ranked just #69 in mpg category (not even TOP100 last season)!? With extra 2.5 minutes and 34 mpg (no big deal), there will be still about 30 other guys which playing more.

A small thing and maybe I'm reading too much into it, however 'twas interesting to watch Jokic's post game (Cle) interview, almost for the entire duration of the interview he's shaking head and generally looks like someone who's unconvinced and can't make the heads nor tail of it - and that after a 36/13/6 performance on almost perfect shooting. Not quite encouraging. Though of course, maybe it's nothing.

THE J0KER wrote:Look at the other #3-10 West contenders: Davis, Cousins and Holiday already played 20+ games over 38+ minutes each, Westbrook and George both, Butler and KAT both (+Wiggins), Lillard and CJ McCollum both (2 matches shy actually)... etc... and Nikola not played 20+ but just 2 (just TWO) such min38+ matches so far this season!? Jokic game style is injury low-risk type of game, with not too much high jumps, dunks, fast running or blocking opponents, and is based on his BBIQ, not physical skills. A significant drop in numbers which he (and Gary Harris) have in the 4th quarter is not the product of tiredness and fatigue, but lack of freedom in last periods where Malone calls often his conservative actions which not suits to this young core and kills Nikola (and Gary) game.

This season Jokic averaging 31:30 minutes. In matches when he playing under 32 minutes Denver record is negative 11-13, in matches where he plays 32+ minutes Denver record is 21-12 great. Last season Nikola averaging 28 minutes, and in games where he played under 29 minutes Nuggets record is 17-23 bad, but in matches where Nikola played 29+ minutes, Denver record was 21-13 great. What other proofs do we need to realize that Nuggets need at least 2mpg Nikola Jokic more on the court than Malone gives him chance using some irrational logic and criteria when it comes to minutes distribution? Nikola is an all-star player ranked just #69 in mpg category (not even TOP100 last season)!? With extra 2.5 minutes and 34 mpg (no big deal), there will be still about 30 other guys which playing more.

I agree Jokic should play more, since he is the best player on the team and you have to tolerate even his worse games in order for him to find his rhythm. But, the evidence you are presenting is very flawed. It can be argued that in games that he played worse he got less minutes, and in the games where he played better more minutes. Thus, implying that in games he plays better there is a bigger chance to win, and that it has nothing truly to do with how much he plays. This would be a confounding factor for your analysis, but a very strong one.

Another article on this:

Holding Nikola Jokic Back
The Nuggets center isn’t built to thrive on a slow, defense-first team

The downtempo shift was a sudden adjustment from autonomy; even Wednesday, as Jokic returned to his spirited, non-benchable self, Denver at times looked like a team that had forgotten how to walk after it had learned to run.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/3/8/17097542/denver-nuggets-struggles-nikola-jokic-paul-millsap-mike-malone

NuggetsWY wrote:

MidMountain wrote:

THE J0KER wrote:Jokic played yesterday all 12 minutes in 3rd quarter. Nuggets finished that period with an impressive 11-0 run in last 3 and half minutes where Jokic scored 8 out of these last 11 points and played well in defense, so I didn't notice any kind of tiredness you talking about. So real question is why after such monster game Nikola played in 3rd quarter Malone waited about 5 minutes left in the final quarter to finally back him on the court? LeBron and Jokic are both brilliant yesterday, but what makes difference at the end is 6 extra minutes LBJ played more than Jokic on the court (39 vs 33). You must be Malone to not realize that!

Jokic was dragging his feet against the Mavericks. I'm guessing he was held out of the first half of the fourth of last night's game because he was too worn down. Malone has to limit Jokic's minutes to not tire him out too much. Lebron played more than Jokic because he is in much better shape. He can play effectively for 39 minutes. Jokic cannot.

Perhaps you are right, but Jokic is not a speed burner, running all over the court. He does not do a lot of leaping and we were treated to videos of his summer workouts (rather impressive if you ask me). I suspect he could play more minutes than he gets simply because of the style he plays. I remember the year Wilt Chamberlain played every minute of every game, including overtime. (Although Jokic does run the offensive breaks now and then, so there is a difference.)

I think Jokic's style of play allows him to play 32 minutes with sub-par conditioning. If his game relied on speed/jumping, he wouldn't even be able to play that many. He has to take his conditioning up a notch in order to be playing more than he is.