A-Rod tested positive for steroids in 03

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Re: A-Rod tested positive for steroids in 03 

Post#81 » by Worm Guts » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:45 pm

Basketball Jesus wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:If you look at the coinciding jump home runs, it obviously does something.


The problem with directly correlating the 90s power explosion and steroids is that there were many other factors involved, like smaller parks, juiced baseballs, a downturn in baseline pitching talent. Sure, some of those numbers are probably due to steroids, but how much is incredibly debatable.



There also seems to be a decline in home runs since baseball started testing for steroids. It's hard to believe that's a coincidence.

Basketball Jesus wrote:One of the prominent studies relating production to increased muscle mass (whether via natural or artificial means) is that an increase in muscle mass positively affects players with mechanically-sound swings more than players with bad swing mechanics. Basically if you have an inefficient swing, you’re not going to get any kind of tangible results from increasing muscle mass. Which I guess explains Jeremy Giambi.


That makes sense, muscle mass isn't going to change a player's ability to make solid contact with the ball, just how far it goes when he does.
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Re: A-Rod tested positive for steroids in 03 

Post#82 » by Basketball Jesus » Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:06 pm

There also seems to be a decline in home runs since baseball started testing for steroids. It's hard to believe that's a coincidence.



But, again, there are other causes at play here; most of the power hitters from the mid-late 1990s have either retired or are in the late stages of their careers, teams are now putting more emphasis on different abilities (defense, plate discipline for instance) and are now looking for more well-rounded players than one-dimensional slugging types, baseballs are no longer juiced, pitching talent has progressed more towards historical means, larger parks (e.g. Petco) becoming in vogue again, etc.

Correlation does not necessarily imply causation. I think quite a few people are forgetting that when it comes to implicating PED use in the offensive explosion of the 1990s.
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Re: A-Rod tested positive for steroids in 03 

Post#83 » by Worm Guts » Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:08 pm

Basketball Jesus wrote:
There also seems to be a decline in home runs since baseball started testing for steroids. It's hard to believe that's a coincidence.



But, again, there are other causes at play here; most of the power hitters from the mid-late 1990s have either retired or are in the late stages of their careers, teams are now putting more emphasis on different abilities (defense, plate discipline for instance) and are now looking for more well-rounded players than one-dimensional slugging types, baseballs are no longer juiced, pitching talent has progressed more towards historical means, larger parks (e.g. Petco) becoming in vogue again, etc.

Correlation does not necessarily imply causation. I think quite a few people are forgetting that when it comes to implicating PED use in the offensive explosion of the 1990s.


There's also the fact that most of the players who put up record numbers during that period looked like the incredible hulk or were directly linked to performance enhancing drugs. Of course there could be other explanations or causes, but steroids stands out as the obvious best guess IMO.
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Re: A-Rod tested positive for steroids in 03 

Post#84 » by Basketball Jesus » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:05 pm

Again, that’s just specious reasoning. There were plenty of non-jacked dudes putting up big numbers in the mid-1990s that were never accused of doping.

Nobody’s arguing that PEDs don’t improve performance – there have been many studies that have proven it does - it’s to what extent. Implying that PEDs were the overwhelming reason for the offensive explosion of the mid-late 90s when there was a major confluence of other externalities isn’t tangibly supported by anything other than conjecture at this point.
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Re: A-Rod tested positive for steroids in 03 

Post#85 » by craig01 » Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:14 pm

All 103 names should be released
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Re: A-Rod tested positive for steroids in 03 

Post#86 » by ReasonablySober » Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:28 pm

Worm Guts wrote:There also seems to be a decline in home runs since baseball started testing for steroids. It's hard to believe that's a coincidence.


They started testing for amphetamines at the same time. While not as publicized, there are plenty who believe that the impact of the greenies ban was far more significant. You're talking about a culture in which players could enter a locker room and on one table have regular coffee and on another have a pot with stimulants. It gave you energy and kept you focussed during those ballgames in the middle of the summer, or helped you get through games after a night where you might have tied one on.

Amphetamines have been around since the 60s. I don't believe for a second that the immortals of yesteryear went through season untainted.
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Re: A-Rod tested positive for steroids in 03 

Post#87 » by Bulltalk » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:09 pm

Basketball Jesus wrote:Again, that’s just specious reasoning. There were plenty of non-jacked dudes putting up big numbers in the mid-1990s that were never accused of doping.

Nobody’s arguing that PEDs don’t improve performance – there have been many studies that have proven it does - it’s to what extent. Implying that PEDs were the overwhelming reason for the offensive explosion of the mid-late 90s when there was a major confluence of other externalities isn’t tangibly supported by anything other than conjecture at this point.


I agree that there's no end to the argument as to "how much" they effected the performance of such players who used them. But they DID positively effect their performance on some level. This is especially the case with certain hitters who not only prolonged their careers through the use of them, but actually performed at levels in line with, or exceeding their past performance level at a time when their careers should have been in statistical decline, if anything.

Certain such players really soured my historical stat-love for the sport, both in single season pads of their stats, and in pads of their career stats. In a sport where individual stats comprise a big part of many fans' love for the game, especially the history of it, this is a blight to the game that will take quite awhile to recover from, IMO. It's hard to come up with many more "hallowed" individual stats in a big time team sport than the single season HR mark, and the career HR mark of MLB. Sosa, Bonds, McGwire, and now ARod seem to be the sport's prime culprits in this regard. Clemens, at this time, seems to be much the lone negative Atlas holding up the roids stain in regards to pitching.

I don't know, BBJ. I don't consider myself to be all that much of a whiney-puss of a fan, but this just did sour my stat-love for it. Call me in ten years. Perhaps I will have found a way to resolve my ill feelings for this particular aspect of the game.
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Re: A-Rod tested positive for steroids in 03 

Post#88 » by Basketball Jesus » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:07 pm

It would behoove you to read up on the physiological aspects of steroids. I don’t mean that in a condescending manner but rather, once you do, you’ll get a better understanding of their impact on performance. I think a big problem with the steroids issue in baseball is that people don’t really have a good understanding as to what they do and what they don’t do. That's not necessarily the fans' fault: most of the information we're given by the media is second-hand and generally incorrect or outright falsehoods, which then gets amplified by the general public.
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Re: A-Rod tested positive for steroids in 03 

Post#89 » by craig01 » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:37 am

Personally, I can't wait for the day when steroids are in the distant past.

The players took the candy, but the union, the owners, and the commissioner are to blame for this mess.
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Re: A-Rod tested positive for steroids in 03 

Post#90 » by Worm Guts » Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:25 pm

Basketball Jesus wrote:It would behoove you to read up on the physiological aspects of steroids. I don’t mean that in a condescending manner but rather, once you do, you’ll get a better understanding of their impact on performance. I think a big problem with the steroids issue in baseball is that people don’t really have a good understanding as to what they do and what they don’t do. That's not necessarily the fans' fault: most of the information we're given by the media is second-hand and generally incorrect or outright falsehoods, which then gets amplified by the general public.


Expand on this. As I see it, steroids make you bigger and stronger which makes you hit ball farther. It's not all that complicated.
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Re: A-Rod tested positive for steroids in 03 

Post#91 » by Basketball Jesus » Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:40 pm

Do you have a subscription to Baseball Prospectus? If so, Will Carroll had an excellent series of articles regarding the steroid controversy a few years back. If not, try Googling Will Carroll and steroids. I’m prevented by Websense here from accessing almost anything with the word steroid in it; I can’t find a link myself.

It's not all that complicated


Actually, it is because increased strength does not necessarily correlate to a general increase in power. The motor skills that promote successful hitting (hand-eye coordination, balance, linear transfer, etc.) and the mechanics behind them (visual recognition, load, bat path) are not directly affected by an increase in muscle mass – natural or artificial. The one thing steroids directly affect - swing momentum (i.e. bat speed and power) – can almost be completely mitigated by inefficient mechanics. Getting back to my original comment, this is why fringe players that took steroids didn’t develop into these massive HR-hitting monsters.

I think one of those Carroll articles mentions that one of the biggest benefits to taking steroids is that it promotes quicker recovery, which enables ballplayers to perform at their peak for longer durations. This is why pitchers are equally guilty of doping as hitters. For pitchers, an increase in power does nothing – in fact, it’s probably more of a detriment – but being able to recover quicker prevents them from achieving muscle fatigue at a normal rate.
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Re: A-Rod tested positive for steroids in 03 

Post#92 » by Worm Guts » Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:11 pm

Actually, it is because increased strength does not necessarily correlate to a general increase in power. The motor skills that promote successful hitting (hand-eye coordination, balance, linear transfer, etc.) and the mechanics behind them (visual recognition, load, bat path) are not directly affected by an increase in muscle mass – natural or artificial. The one thing steroids directly affect - swing momentum (i.e. bat speed and power) – can almost be completely mitigated by inefficient mechanics. Getting back to my original comment, this is why fringe players that took steroids didn’t develop into these massive HR-hitting monsters.


I don't think that's complicated. The benefit of getting stronger is going to be proportional to how good of a hitter you are, I think most people have some concept of that. I think most people understand there's a difference between adding 40 pounds of muscle to George Brett and putting Arnold Schwarzenegger in the lineup.
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Re: A-Rod tested positive for steroids in 03 

Post#93 » by Basketball Jesus » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:05 pm

That’s the thing though: most people don’t understand the difference. They assume that steroids can turn anybody into power-hitting monsters that can check-swing home runs and that the accomplishments of Bonds, A-Rod, et al. are by virtue of steroids, not enhanced (by however much) by it. That’s not the case. Certain players are going to derive more of a power benefit from such usage; these are the players that are generally flawless hitters to begin with. Which I guess raises the question as to why they needed them in the first place, which I further guess assumes that there is a much greater benefit elsewhere.*

On a similar tangent Keith Law, in his latest chat makes the claim that PEDs are nothing more than placebo-effect nonsense:

Bill (Chicago): If steroid/HGH provides, as you claim, "negligible" benefits, then why do athletes continue to take chances by using them? And do you feel that Barry Bonds hitting 73 HRs compared to what he would have hit sans 'roids is "negligible"...

Keith Law: This is easily one of the stupidest arguments made in favor of steroid usage. Athletes use steroids because they BELIEVE they will help. People take echinacea because they think it will cure colds, despite copious evidence that it does nothing. That "immune system booster" Airborne is useless, yet it's sold in every drugstore in the country and has to be racking up millions in sales ... even though it's a vitamin C megadose which can actually reduce your immune system's ability to fight off an infection. Athletes who take steroids are just as dumb as people who take Airborne or echinacea or who buy into Ponzi schemes, and the fact that there are people who do these things doesn't make doing those things smart.


I don’t necessarily buy that (there have been numerous studies outside the realm of baseball, and sports for that matter, that have shown these PEDs promote recovery time and increase power) but he does bring up a good point: there has been no test (that I know of, at least) that addresses placebo effects. One of the most important research criteria for a drug’s effectiveness is weighing it against placebos.

While we know what steroids do – increase muscle mass, speed up recovery time – there has yet to be any kind of definitive study on how they affect performance in baseball. We can approximate: for hitters steroids increase fast-twitch muscle mass, which theoretically increases power, which then theoretically increase swing momentum; for pitchers it promotes faster muscle recovery and sustained peaks, which would theoretically improve endurance over the course of the season and prevent fatigue. Steroids can also be compared to tests from other substances that create similar effects but, in the end, most are just approximations based on what we know outside the sport.

That’s what made the Bat Speed (the training group, not the action itself) study so important; it was one of the first studies that actually set out to determine the tangible benefits for baseball players; it studied the effects of increased muscle mass on the kinesiology of hitters. (They came to the conclusion that swing mechanics are the driving factor in successful hitting, not swing momentum.)


* Not to go all Joe Pos parenthetical on you, but it doesn’t make sense if power were the primary benefit of taking a banned PED; there are many legal (or, better, undetectable illegal) supplements that can achieve the same results, with anabolic ratings within +/- 5 of the banned substances being tested for. It doesn’t make much sense for players to willing put themselves in a position to be easily caught if for something they could achieve through other, less impugning means.
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Re: A-Rod tested positive for steroids in 03 

Post#94 » by magicfan4life05 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:00 pm

Anyone watching A-rod's press conference??

what was that huge pause about??
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Re: A-Rod tested positive for steroids in 03 

Post#95 » by Pharmcat » Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:36 pm

good stuff from him

said how he took it, owned up to the mistake, and is joining/helping with anti steroid program


thats 1 million times more than what anyone else has done from this era

muchos props, now to drive in 135 this year :thinking:
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Re: A-Rod tested positive for steroids in 03 

Post#96 » by Celticsfan93 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:18 pm

Feb 7, 2009 will go down as one of the best days in my life.
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Re: A-Rod tested positive for steroids in 03 

Post#97 » by craig01 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:35 pm

Well, at least he'll try to move on.....
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Re: A-Rod tested positive for steroids in 03 

Post#98 » by greenbeans » Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:39 pm

Celticsfan93 wrote:Feb 7, 2009 will go down as one of the best days in my life.

What an uneventful life...
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