Michael Vick

[NDaATL]

What does Rushing for 1000 yards have anything to do with passing at a rate of 53%?

Again, I've already told you how bad our receivers are, and backed it up with video evidence. Not to mention that was only ONE game.

We're looking at a pure passer perspective here, rushing doesnt figure much into it.

How is that? Isn't that what makes him Michael Vick? He accounted for over 3500 yards this year and 25 touchdowns, that's more than MOST Qb's in the NFL.

I also find it funny that everyone else makes excuses for QB's because their O-Line sucks, but noone will concede that to Vick. He is running for his life on almost every pass play.

If you can prove to me how Rushing a 1000 yards in a season, correlates to under/over-throwing receivers, and not throwing accurately, then I'll concede that point to you.

Well, for one, being able to run like that helps his cause of not being a great passer. Although, LIKE I'VE SAID 1000 times, he passed SIGNIFICANTLY more accurate this season than in the past, but his receivers KILLED him, but you wouldn't know that because all you do is look at stats on an internet site.

[NO-KG-AI]

I also agree that the WC offense is a bad fit for him.

even with bad line, he could buy enough time to get the ball down field.

I can't get into confidence, or what happens with timing. All I know is that if you can touch it, you can catch it, period.

Even Crumpler had like 4 drops against the Saints, 1 in the endzone if I remember correctly(and he usually torches us)

Again, I have no reason to stick up for Vick, but I'm sure I have seen more Falcon's games than any non-Falcons fan has, and I have been too a **** load Saint's/Falcon's games(my favorite games!)

[NDaATL]

Even Crumpler had like 4 drops against the Saints, 1 in the endzone if I remember correctly(and he usually torches us)

Watch that youtube I posted, it's on there.

[swede]

That video is kind've depressing. RealGM could field better receivers then they have.

[J.Kim]

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Again, I've already told you how bad our receivers are, and backed it up with video evidence. Not to mention that was only ONE game.

How is that? Isn't that what makes him Michael Vick? He accounted for over 3500 yards this year and 25 touchdowns, that's more than MOST Qb's in the NFL.

I also find it funny that everyone else makes excuses for QB's because their O-Line sucks, but noone will concede that to Vick. He is running for his life on almost every pass play.

Well, for one, being able to run like that helps his cause of not being a great passer. Although, LIKE I'VE SAID 1000 times, he passed SIGNIFICANTLY more accurate this season than in the past, but his receivers KILLED him, but you wouldn't know that because all you do is look at stats on an internet site.

And let me re-state my point.

Why are you pulling up rushing statistics, when we are debating the accuracy of a passer? If you look at my posts, I make no mention of Vick's rushing abilities, only except when telling you that I'm not talking about his rushing abilities. And I wasn't talking about Michael Vick the overall package to begin with. I was talking about Michael Vick the passer. Hell, I even stated before the expansion of the Boards, that Michael Vick is the greatest scrambling Quarterback that the league has seen since Randall Cunningham. But that still has nothing to do with Michael Vick the Passer.

All I do is look at stats on an internet site? I usually form my opinions on a combination of stats (FO is pretty good at measuring definitives, i.e. Catch Rate %), reading articles and anecdotes and actually watching the game myself. And if I havn't done one of those, I'll indicate it on my posts. In this case, I have watched a couple of Falcons games. So no, what I do when analyzing is not just look at stats on an internet site.

[J.Kim]

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Exactly, In YOUR opinion. You don't watch Falcon games so you just go by the consensus of him having a poor percentage.

This is just finding something to bash about Vick. These recievers are PROFESSIONALS, they are paid MILLIONS to catch the football. If they can't catch a football that lands right in their hands or chest, how is that Vick's fault? I don't care what happened on the play, you have to make those catches.
Did you watch this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4aUWrLAX3U

Keep in mind that's only in ONE GAME. Dropped passes on 3rd downs are DRIVE KILLERS, and make a HUGE difference in a game.

Oh, and why does Crumpler not have a problem catching his passes? Why does Brian Finneran not have a problem with his passes?


This is what I hate. EVERYTHING is on Vick REGARDLESS of what goes wrong with the Falcons. Can you name the last college-to-NFL coach that was successful?? You probably can't without looking it up or thinking for a while, and this is why I hated the hiring of Petrino. College coaches generally don't work out in the NFL, especially right off the bat. But it doesn't matter because if we fail, all the blame will be on Vick.


If you watched our games last year, you would KNOW those drops weren't Vicks fault. Alge Crumpler PUBLICALLY called out Roddy White last year. Saying something like "If these receivers don't start doing what they're paid to do, this team is going nowhere, and I'm talking specifically about Roddy White."

That's pretty much the exact quote, and the bolded part is 100% a sure quote.

This is just finding something to bash on about Vick? I've been watching Vick play for his NFL Career, for at least a couple of games a season. He has not progressed as a Passser at all throughout that time. You would think that, in any offense, surrounded by any talent, that a good football player would be able to evolve in some way. But Michael Vick has not.

Once again, have you thought about WHY those receivers might be dropping so many balls?
Even in that highlight package, you could see why some of those passes were dropped.
I'll go through the highlights play-by-play (the one that you posted) and tell you, along with what the receiver did wrong, and what Michael Vick did wrong as well.
Play 1: Lelie tripped on the defender's foot. No question about it, that was Lelie's fault
Play 2: Roddy White tripped, yes, but Michael Vick also put it a bit out of reach and a bit over Roddy White's head (It also doesn't help that the Corner had inside positioning)
Play 3: (Can't tell who the player is) Isn't exactly the easiest reception in the world. Ball was out in front of him, yes, but the corner was pulling him back. Still, no fault on Vick, decently placed ball.
Play 4: Crumpler had to jump and stretch out his hands on that one. Vick clearly overthrew to him, and Crumpler had to jump and catch it. The angle shows it could have been thrown right in between the numbers.
Play 5: Roddy White dropped it. No comments here.
Play 6: Roddy White didn't come back to the line, Cornerback makes the play. (Though, it cannot be seen whether the pass was thrown mid-route, or right when he makes the curl)

Crumpler does have a problem catching passes. Crumpler had a Catch rate of 54%, and according to FO, he usually has a mid-50% catch rate.
Brian Finneran didn't play last year.

Eh? I don't get the Petrino, Horn relation that you're trying to make here. How would Horn's drop in catch rate have anything to do with the play calling of Petrino? Catch Rate is generally a constant in that, barring injury (as in playing through injury), A player will have a similar catch rate, regardless of bad coaching, good coaching, or any external variables, except the Quarterback. (For example of a good catch rate, regardless of bad coaching, look at Ronald Curry - Oakland.

[NDaATL]

Why are you pulling up rushing statistics, when we are debating the accuracy of a passer?

Look at the original post, he said predict the stats of Vick for this season. You went off to talk about how bad a passer he is (although he isn't as bad a passer as you seem to think), ignoring that his rushing makes up for a lot of that. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but that's how it seemed.

[NDaATL]

This is just finding something to bash on about Vick? I've been watching Vick play for his NFL Career, for at least a couple of games a season.

Exactly, a couple games a SEASON. The past 3 years that he started have NOTHING to do with THIS PAST season. He passed SIGNIFICANTLY more accurate THIS PAST season.

He has not progressed as a Passser at all throughout that time. You would think that, in any offense, surrounded by any talent, that a good football player would be able to evolve in some way. But Michael Vick has not.

Actually THIS PAST season he did. You only saw a "couple" of games which might be true, so you didn't see enough to realize. That's the thing, other QB's make TONS of bad throws too, but when Vick makes one, it's just "Oh Vick made another bad throw."

Once again, have you thought about WHY those receivers might be dropping so many balls?

If the ball hits you in the chest, or on both hands, you have to catch the ball, no excuses. I can't believe you are making excuses for our receivers, ESPECIALLY since you don't even know enough about the situation to have a legit argument.

Play 3: (Can't tell who the player is) Isn't exactly the easiest reception in the world. Ball was out in front of him, yes, but the corner was pulling him back. Still, no fault on Vick, decently placed ball.

It was Michael Jenkins, and if you actually SAW the game, it was a greatly placed ball. They showed the replay like 5 times and gave Jenkins HELL, and it was well deserved. You can't really tell from the blur on that clip, but it was RIGHT in his hands. On the replays during the game they showed it from about 3 angles. That was also a 3rd down, so we had to punt instead of having a 1st.

BTW, at some point, your receivers HAVE to make plays. That wasn't even a tough play to make. When your receivers can't catch anything that's not in their chest (and even THAT'S questionable with our receivers), that's the DEFINITION of having horrible receivers. And the fact is, Vick NEVER gets bailed out by his receivers, as pretty much every other QB in the NFL does, more than a few times a game.

Play 4: Crumpler had to jump and stretch out his hands on that one. Vick clearly overthrew to him, and Crumpler had to jump and catch it. The angle shows it could have been thrown right in between the numbers.

Again, you can't really see it that well on the youtube, but it was a VERY catchable ball, especially for Crumpler. If a receiver/TE on your team dropped that ball, you would put the blame on that receiver. BTW the announcers gave him hell.

Play 5: Roddy White dropped it. No comments here.

That crap happened EVERY game.

Play 6: Roddy White didn't come back to the line, Cornerback makes the play. (Though, it cannot be seen whether the pass was thrown mid-route, or right when he makes the curl)

Oh please, he clearly stood in the same spot about 8 yards PAST the 1st down marker and LET the CB come up and bat the ball away, that was CLEARLY Roddy's fault. Again, you're making excuses for our poor WRs to justify your opinion on Vick. Had you seen how bad Roddy and Jenkins choked all season and the crap they pulled on the field, you would not put ONE BIT of the blame from those kind of plays on Vick.

Please don't forget that ALL of those passes in that video were all in ONE game. This crap happened ALL season long.

Crumpler does have a problem catching passes. Crumpler had a Catch rate of 54%, and according to FO, he usually has a mid-50% catch rate.

Chad Johnson is at 57%. Torry Holt is at 52%. Roy Williams is at 54%. Randy Moss is at 43%. Burress is at 52%. TO is at 56% You saying they aren't good receivers?

But you are right, Crumpler did have more drops than usual last year, and some were rediculously bad. I'm just mad that I don't have video proof, or you'd be like OMG.

Brian Finneran didn't play last year.

EXACTLY! Finneran has NEVER had problems catching Vicks passes, he's been Vicks goto wide receiver EVERY year. Brian Finneran! When he's your best receiver, something is clearly wrong.

I don't get the Petrino, Horn relation that you're trying to make here. How would Horn's drop in catch rate have anything to do with the play calling of Petrino?

I wasn't relating the 2. They were merely 2 seperate statements that must have seemed to be together.

I was just saying that I didn't like the Petrino hiring for the simple fact that the success rate for college-to-NFL coaches is EXTREMELY low. But that doesn't matter at all, since everyone will blame Vick if we don't win.


You have to understand, I don't claim that Vick is a great passer by any means, but he was DEFINITELY much improved THIS PAST SEASON than you have "seen" or are giving him credit for. And adding on his rushing, he was definitely a top 10-12 overall quarterback this past season. I do agree, however, that he still needs to improve. But the West-Coast offense wasn't fit for him, and Greg Knapp doesn't allow his QBs to audible, that's how bad it is.

Not to mention Vick had his BEST passing season under Dan Reeves, and even did great after coming back in 2003 after the broken leg injury. It's no coincidence that he regressed after being transformed into a west coast QB. Vick is much better at a vertical passing game than a West coast passing game (especially since our receivers can't even catch half of the short passes anyway).

[NDaATL]

I also wonder why you didn't address this quote..

I also find it funny that everyone else makes excuses for QB's because their O-Line sucks, but noone will concede that to Vick. He is running for his life on almost every pass play.

[NO-KG-AI]

I'll say it again, if you can touch it, you can catch it, theirs no excuse for a dropped pass that you can get your hands on.

[NDaATL]

I'll say it again, if you can touch it, you can catch it, theirs no excuse for a dropped pass that you can get your hands on.

Well it's different if they are completely outstretched and they tip the ball with their fingers, that's obviously not very catchable. But I see what you're saying, if it hits you in BOTH HANDS (not fingers), they are professionals, it should be a catch.

But most of our drops weren't even tough catches, they were just simple drops.

[Wizards2Lottery]

Theres to being a reciever than catching. Running the right routes, timing, getting seperation and finally making the catch.

The Falcons recievers suck at everything and that can't be blamed on Vick.

The only two QB's in the league who have done anything good with terrible or average WR's are Tom Brady and Donovan McNabb.

[NDaATL]

Theres to being a reciever than catching. Running the right routes, timing, getting seperation and finally making the catch.

Exactly, and announcers OFTEN brought this up. But I didn't mention it since he'd come back with I'm making excuses for Vick or whatever. Jenkins is pretty fast, but he's not quick. I've heard he has a horrible acceleration and doesn't change directions well.

The only two QB's in the league who have done anything good with terrible or average WR's are Tom Brady and Donovan McNabb.

I would love to have the Eagles or Pats receivers. Brady throws the ball just as hard as Vick, but their receivers have no problem (or at least less a problem) catching it.

But Brady/McNabb are also allowed to audible, Knapp doesn't allow his QBs to audible. People say Steve Young succeeded in that system, Steve also had Jerry Rice and TO, and a great runningback on his team, as well as a more than adequate offensive line.

[Basketball Jesus]

I'll say it again, if you can touch it, you can catch it, theirs no excuse for a dropped pass that you can get your hands on.

I take it you've never played receiver.

[NO-KG-AI]

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I take it you've never played receiver.

Yes I did, and my coaches made sure we knew that if we could touch it, their is no reason we can't catch it.

I take you never had tough coaches

[High 5]

There's a reason Alge Crumpler goes to the Pro Bowl every year, it's because he knows how to get open and catch the ball, even though he had a pretty bad year as far as drops last season. Whenever our receivers stepped up, got open and made catches, Vick had an amazing game. It's no coincidence.

Do you people ever get tired of making these misinformed hate threads on Vick? This was a particularly weak one.

[J.Kim]

High 5, we've had this discussion before, and I think you might know where this is leading to.

The Point I was trying to make throughout this thread was that even though a Good WR makes a QB better, a QB should be able to make a decent WR better. Progress is a two way street, and I was just pointing out some of the ways in which Vick could have made the receptions a bit easier for his receivers. That if Vick was as good a QB as all you Falcons/Vick fans are saying, then he should be able to make those WRs better. And that there are some flaws towards Vick in a timed-offence that makes Vick a less efficient passer (even NDaATL admitted this by saying "Vick is much better in a Vertical Passing game than a West Coast Passing game"


But of course, this is all coming full circle and it'll lead nowhere, since everyone is so firmly entrenched in their stances.

[UrbanLegendMD]

Every year Falcons fans talk about how Vick is such a great QB who needs the weapons and a scheme to turn him into an ultimate QB, and every year it's the same thing. If your completion % is less than 55 for a career, it's not the receivers, it's you. If you've never tossed it for more than 3000 yards, it's not the receivers, it's you. Look at Brady's bunch. He managed to utilize those guys pretty well.

[HMFFL]

Every year Falcons fans talk about how Vick is such a great QB who needs the weapons and a scheme to turn him into an ultimate QB, and every year it's the same thing.

You should really watch Vick more and the WR's that he's had pray would catch the ball. This is the only year I feel good about what Vick has around him but even still they will need to stay healthy.

[NDaATL]

I was just pointing out some of the ways in which Vick could have made the receptions a bit easier for his receivers.

You mean Vick should walk the ball to the receivers and personally hand them the ball? That's about the only way they can hang onto it.

That if Vick was as good a QB as all you Falcons/Vick fans are saying, then he should be able to make those WRs better.

It's blatently obvious you didn't watch any Falcon games last year, or you saw his worst game of the season, so please don't comment on this anymore.


Oh, and you still haven't addressed this quote

I also find it funny that everyone else makes excuses for QB's because their O-Line sucks, but noone will concede that to Vick. He is running for his life on almost every pass play.