Michael Vick

[NDaATL]

If your completion % is less than 55 for a career, it's not the receivers, it's you.

I love it when people know nothing about the situation yet they come in with a stat and act as if it is know all/end all. I said he was better LAST SEASON genius.

If you've never tossed it for more than 3000 yards, it's not the receivers, it's you. Look at Brady's bunch. He managed to utilize those guys pretty well.

Brady may not have great receivers, but they can at least catch the ball. And actually Vick threw for 2900+ in his first starting season and was a top 15 passer. He even did well after coming back from a broken leg. It's no coincidence that the Greg Knapp no audible/WCO screwed up his development.

[High 5]

Every year Falcons fans talk about how Vick is such a great QB who needs the weapons and a scheme to turn him into an ultimate QB, and every year it's the same thing. If your completion % is less than 55 for a career, it's not the receivers, it's you. If you've never tossed it for more than 3000 yards, it's not the receivers, it's you. Look at Brady's bunch. He managed to utilize those guys pretty well.

Brady has reliable pass catchers, a solid OL and a great coaching staff. Outside of Crumpler, Vick has none of those. Try again.

[UrbanLegendMD]

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Brady has reliable pass catchers, a solid OL and a great coaching staff. Outside of Crumpler, Vick has none of those. Try again.

Vick has 2 first rounders and a WR who caught over 1000 yds one season + Crumpler and a line that blocked for 1000 yd back and a back up with one of the highest YPC in the league.

[NO-KG-AI]

I am so obviously a vick fan..... but I'll address this anyway

Brady had plenty of reliable tight ends, and always has guys that can hang on to the ball, they aren't dynamic, but if he got the ball their they held on....

Think about the list of reciever's he has gone through.

Branch
Givens
Troy Brown
Fauria
Watson
Graham


And what happened when his guys didn't make the play against San Diego.... They got the blame not Brady.

[UrbanLegendMD]

How you can defend less than 53% completion is beyond me. NFL QB should do better than that no matter how you spin it. That's worse than freaking Kyle Boller.

[J.Kim]

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You mean Vick should walk the ball to the receivers and personally hand them the ball? That's about the only way they can hang onto it.

No, but Vick shouldn't throw the ball high and away from his receivers.

It's blatently obvious you didn't watch any Falcon games last year, or you saw his worst game of the season, so please don't comment on this anymore.

And yet you provide no analytics to his game either, and only respond by trying to insult, or play me off as ignorant.

I also find it funny that everyone else makes excuses for QB's because their O-Line sucks, but noone will concede that to Vick. He is running for his life on almost every pass play.

Because there are Quarterbacks who can still complete 60+%, even despite a bad O-Line. J.P. Losman comes to mind for the Buffalo Bills last season. He completed something like 63% of his passes despite the fact that his O-Line sucked.

[NO-KG-AI]

How you can defend less than 53% completion is beyond me. NFL QB should do better than that no matter how you spin it. That's worse than freaking Kyle Boller.

I agree, I always think the same thing, but when I watch, their are so many problems that are the receivers fault.

I have no reason to lie, I hate the Falcons, probably more than I should hate any team, but I know what I see, and they drop EVERYTHING, especially over the middle, particularly Roddy White and Michael Jenkins.

I remember Roddy White going up for a jump ball, he turned, Shielded our CB away from the ball, made a good jump, and it bounced off his chest. How do you excuse that??

Then their was Lelie up the sideline, just flat out dropped a sure TD.

Then Crumpler drops like 2 short passes, before dropping one in the end zone, that was a little bit long. I don't know about you guys, but if I dropped that, I would be running suicides, until I commit suicide.

Then their was Michael Jenkins, my personal favorite, because I remember one where, Harper was coming over the top, and he completely short armed it.... That's not technically a drop, but it does hurt Vick's percentages.

The Falcon's would do Vick's % a favor(since that seems to be so important) by giving him more running back short pass plays, but the running backs have to stay in to block, because what a lot of people don't know is, the Falcons have a horrible offensive line, but Vick gets away so much you can't tell.

Which leads me to my next point, if Vick didn't have his running ability, he would be in the top 3 for being sacked the most, but instead he gets away and gets rid of the ball, which drags down his percentages.

This is all coming from a Saints fan who would want nothing more than to see the Falcons get rid of Vick.

I know no matter what I say, you guys won't hear it, but I don't think he needs to get to 65%, I think if he can get around 60-62% in the next 2 years, then he will be the hardest player to defend against(if he isn't already).

I mean, who do you think all the NFC south's teams defenses are geared to stop?? you think we all have elite DE's by coincidence??

[J.Kim]

I mean, who do you think all the NFC south's teams defenses are geared to stop?? you think we all have elite DE's by coincidence??

To think that teams have Elite DEs to stop Vick is a stretch. A Huge stretch. This, in fact has been going on for at least 20 years, and while it is not a coincidence, it is certainly not the reason either.

Go read The Blind Side by Michael Lewis and you'll see why teams have Elite DEs on their team.

[High 5]

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Vick has 2 first rounders and a WR who caught over 1000 yds one season + Crumpler and a line that blocked for 1000 yd back and a back up with one of the highest YPC in the league.

Oh, so because they were drafted in the first round they're automatically great? Please, I like both of them and they both of the talented to be very good, but neither of them can catch consistently or get separation. Lelie would trip over his own feet more times than not.

Our line was small and athletic to get cut blocks, but they can't pass protect for ****. And it's not like Dunn had any efficient yards outside of 4 or 5 games. That's a really bad argument.

[NO-KG-AI]

I mean, who do you think all the NFC south's teams defenses are geared to stop?? you think we all have elite DE's by coincidence??

To think that teams have Elite DEs to stop Vick is a stretch. A Huge stretch. This, in fact has been going on for at least 20 years, and while it is not a coincidence, it is certainly not the reason either.

Go read The Blind Side by Michael Lewis and you'll see why teams have Elite DEs on their team.

If you think the NFC's south defense aren't building to stop Vick, I don't know what NFC south you are watching.

Take a look at Tampa a few years ago, they were the only team who could effectively shut down Vick, when the Falcon's were playing really well. I know that DE might be the most important position on the D, but it is especially at a premium. Just look at the DE's in the south the last few years. Their is good reason that the Saints took Will Smith, when we already had 2 good DE's and much more glaring needs, but we grabbed him because we needed a premium pass rusher to flush Vick out of the pocket. Ever notice how Corner backs are usually at a premium in the NFC west? Is that not because of the WR talent in the division?

The 53% was due to a worse year than most for his recievers, 55-56% is about his normal percentage when healthy.

IF he can get that Somewhere around 60% then I don't think you can complain, just because of all the other dimensions he brings.

[J.Kim]

All teams have been looking for Terrific Pass rush DEs for the past 20 years. To put Vick as the sole reason for the NFC south stockpiling on DEs is unreasonable thinking on your part.

It's just the way the game's been heading for the past 20 years, and Vick is just part of the evolution, not the catalyst for it.

[J.Kim]

The 53% was due to a worse year than most for his recievers, 55-56% is about his normal percentage when healthy.

IF he can get that Somewhere around 60% then I don't think you can complain, just because of all the other dimensions he brings.

But will he even get to 60%? I personally don't think so...

As I've mentioned to High 5 before, Vick is coming upon a WYSIWYG stage of his career. If we do not see improvements on his pass accuracy, then it is likely that Vick will remain a passer like this for the rest of his career, and that teams using him will be better suited to utilize an offence built around his strengths - scrambling/rushing, with the odd deep throw once in a while.

[NO-KG-AI]

All teams have been looking for Terrific Pass rush DEs for the past 20 years. To put Vick as the sole reason for the NFC south stockpiling on DEs is unreasonable thinking on your part.

It's just the way the game's been heading for the past 20 years, and Vick is just part of the evolution, not the catalyst for it.

Ok, but you have to admit, the south has as much, or more than any other division recently, though they seem to be going away from it a bit more(might just seem that way because Tampa went so down hill)

Edit: ok let me clarify a bit, I don't think they go into the draft thinking about stopping Vick, but when they are evaluating prospects, and are torn between picking a DE and an immediate need, it is sometimes the straw that breaks the camels back so to speak.

"Hmm well, we don't need a DE, but depth doesn't hurt, and we could use the speed, and fresh bodies to chase Vick around"

That sort of thing.

[NDaATL]

No, but Vick shouldn't throw the ball high and away from his receivers.

Completely irrelevant. This is like saying, "Kobe Bryant shouldn't miss shots because it hurts the team." Everyone makes bad throws, and again, you are going by what you've seen in the PAST, not LAST YEAR. He improved in this area last season, but you are still stuck on the no passing Vick because his completion% didn't improve. Like I said, you need to abandon this topic because you don't have an informed opinion on it.

And yet you provide no analytics to his game either, and only respond by trying to insult, or play me off as ignorant.

I haven't? I guess you haven't read my HUGE post on page 3, since you still haven't responded to it.

Because there are Quarterbacks who can still complete 60+%, even despite a bad O-Line. J.P. Losman comes to mind for the Buffalo Bills last season. He completed something like 63% of his passes despite the fact that his O-Line sucked.

And Vick still KILLED Losman in overall production. He accounted for more yards, touchdowns, PASSING touchdowns, and less interceptions.

EDIT: Oh and Losman also has better receivers..

BTW I'd rather have Buffalo's oline than ours. Pass blocking is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from run blocking, especially with the cut-blocking system we had. The Raiders and possibly the Cardinals are the only teams with worse pass blocking olines.

[NDaATL]

Vick has 2 first rounders and a WR who caught over 1000 yds one season

Ask Ryan Leaf or Tom Brady if it matters where you get drafted. Besides, they were LATE 1sts, and like the 7th-8th WR taken overall. Doesn't matter where you are taken if you can't catch the ball.

a line that blocked for 1000 yd back and a back up with one of the highest YPC in the league.

You do realize that run blocking and pass blocking are different things, right?

Find me the last team who had ONE running back who got the majority of carries and DIDN'T run for 1000, what a horrible argument.

[J.Kim]

Completely irrelevant. This is like saying, "Kobe Bryant shouldn't miss shots because it hurts the team." Everyone makes bad throws, and again, you are going by what you've seen in the PAST, not LAST YEAR. He improved in this area last season, but you are still stuck on the no passing Vick because his completion% didn't improve. Like I said, you need to leave this topic alone because you don't have an informed opinion on it.

Everyone makes bad throws yes. But the ones you happened to show me as the "definitive video for Falcons' WR atrociousness" show that Michael Vick could have equally made an attempt to throw a better pass, as much as his Receivers could have tried to hold on to the ball.

I'm sorry, but you need to take your Vick-colored glasses as well. He's no where as near an accurate passer as you think he is. And while his WRs are bad, if Michael Vick was truly that accurate a passer, his WRs should have shown some progress in their overall play.
Not one receiver that has played with Michael Vick has been able to pull his Catch rate over 60% (except Brian Finneran, who I regard as an anomaly, because the trends act against him), and that's not just this season, it's the previous 6 seasons over the span of his career. You have said that THIS SEASON his WRs dropped a lot more passes, but yet, all their Catch Rates over the past 6 season suggests is that the problem might not lie in the receivers, but rather with Vick.

I haven't? I guess you haven't read my HUGE post on page 3, since you still haven't responded to it.

You havn't actually posted in regards to anything related to his game at all. All you've done is make excuses for Michael Vick, and while some of them may be justified, you still have not yet gave me your full-analysis towards Michael Vick's game, his throwing motion, his stance and anything in regards to his game that might support your argument.

And Vick still KILLED Losman in overall production. He accounted for more yards, touchdowns, PASSING touchdowns, and less interceptions.

EDIT: Oh and Losman also has better receivers..

BTW I'd rather have Buffalo's oline than ours. Pass blocking is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from run blocking, especially with the cut-blocking system we had. The Raiders and possibly the Cardinals are the only teams with worse pass blocking olines.

Once again, I don't care if Michael Vick runs like Ladainian Tomlinson every year. What I'm discussing his the passing aspects of his game. And J.P. Losman clearly outplayed Michael Vick in that department.

And Losman, just as much Lee Evans makes him better by catching what he throws, Losman makes it as easy as possible for Evans to make the catch as well.

And Leinart and yes, even Kurt Warner clearly outplayed Michael Vick in terms of passing offence.

I mean, hell, even the DPARs and DVOAs agree with me, which take into account the WRs, the Defenses, the O-Line and everything.
Michael Vick was a below average Quarterback, with a -6.3 DPAR and a -16.6% DVOA. There were 36 better Quarterbacks than him last year.

[NDaATL]

Everyone makes bad throws yes. But the ones you happened to show me as the "definitive video for Falcons' WR atrociousness" show that Michael Vick could have equally made an attempt to throw a better pass, as much as his Receivers could have tried to hold on to the ball.

That's not the "Definitive" video, the definitive video would have been in excess of 20 minutes. That was ONE GAME. And it was just a sports reporter analyzing THAT GAME, it wasn't a seasonal statistical analysis of Atlanta WRs or such.

BTW since you didn't seem to get it the first time, I will repost what I said earlier..
At some point, your receivers HAVE to make plays. That wasn't even a tough play to make. When your receivers can't catch anything that's not in their chest (and even THAT'S questionable with our receivers), that's the DEFINITION of having horrible receivers.

You have to look at it from our perspective. If it was YOUR team's receivers dropping those passes, you would COMPLETELY blame the receiver, no question. We even have a Saints fan defending Vick season last year, and Saints fans give us more hell than anyone.

He's no where as near an accurate passer as you think he is.

Again, missing the point. Where did I say he was a very accurate passer? I said he was SIGNIFICANTLY MORE ACCURATE this PAST SEASON than in prior years. Why don't you actually read what I say instead of reading between the lines.

Not one receiver that has played with Michael Vick has been able to pull his Catch rate over 60% (except Brian Finneran, who I regard as an anomaly, because the trends act against him),

That's because Finneran is the best receiver Vick has ever played with. And since a 60% rate is so vital to you, why don't Chad Johnson and Torry Holt have 60% catch rates, they have probowl QBs don't they?

and that's not just this season, it's the previous 6 seasons over the span of his career. You have said that THIS SEASON his WRs dropped a lot more passes, but yet, all their Catch Rates over the past 6 season suggests is that the problem might not lie in the receivers, but rather with Vick.

It's not surprising, but you've missed the point again. I'm not talking about the previous 6 seasons, I'm talking about LAST YEAR, and he was more accurate last year. If that doesn't register with you, it's because you didn't see the games, and it's already been acknowledged that you didn't.

You havn't actually posted in regards to anything related to his game at all. All you've done is make excuses for Michael Vick, and while some of them may be justified, you still have not yet gave me your full-analysis towards Michael Vick's game, his throwing motion, his stance and anything in regards to his game that might support your argument.

Actually I have, go back and check before you make such an outrageous claim. I have said that he does need to improve. What's there to say of his throwing motion? It's not bad, and certainly not a flaw. His stance is just that, he doesn't have one because DE's are always in his face.

Once again, I don't care if Michael Vick runs like Ladainian Tomlinson every year. What I'm discussing his the passing aspects of his game. And J.P. Losman clearly outplayed Michael Vick in that department.

Actually he didn't. Vick had more passing TD's and less interceptions. The difference in yards has to do with the amount of Attempts Vick had, and also our short WCO passing game. It's no coincidence that Vick threw for 2936 yards on only 30 more attempts in his 2nd year.

And Leinart and yes, even Kurt Warner clearly outplayed Michael Vick in terms of passing offence.

Again, you completely missed the point. Leinart and Warner have 2 PROBOWL RECEIVERS!! As well as a good receiving HB in James.

Michael Vick was a below average Quarterback... There were 36 better Quarterbacks than him last year.

Actually there weren't. Vick was top 10 in passing TD's, ran for over 1000, and accounted for over 3500 yards last year. That certainly factors in. Your only argument is completion%, which would be much higher without our liabilities at WR and OL. Vick was an overall top 10-12 QB last season.

With Vick, passing is only part of his game. That's like saying Al Jefferson is better than Kobe Bryant because Al posts up more.

[NO-KG-AI]

Hard to have a good stance and throwing motion when you are constantly being chased.

[UrbanLegendMD]

I am gonna be honest. I haven't seen a single Falcons game in two years. That being said, this whole argument is purely normative, since we still need to see what Vick can do with reliable receivers. I still think he is a glorified Running Back who is Kordell Stewart with a pretty face, but that's just me.

[NDaATL]

I am gonna be honest. I haven't seen a single Falcons game in two years.

We knew..