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Laimbeer wrote:I wonder what our evaluation and potential contract would be if Cade were drafted #15 and playing like this?

Playing like what? 22/7/4 on 45/35 splits? Those are all big improvements from his rookie year. The shooting is up +3/+4, and frankly, he's shown he can do much better than that. If he continues to make improvement, there is no doubt he's a max player. I have no doubt that a 27 yr old cade is going to be a heck of a player as long as he stays healthy though. But sure, you are still paying on potential at 22. That just what happens with the current salary structure of rookie deals + extensions.

For sure, as long as he stays healthy he's worth at least 80+% of a max so he'll get the max. Like his worst case is above average starter 3rd best guy on a good playoff team which those players often get near max money.

Next year he's still on that rookie contract even if we give him the max, and two years from now he gets his first year of his max deal.

Hes playing hurt might as well shut it down

I'm still not convinced Cade is the guy. That not so recent game thread where folks were trying to come up with their hypothetical backcourt mate with Cade and all the traits that player would have for Cade to be successful and it was a player that would clearly be better than him (!!!) has really stuck with me and it's a major red flag. That happened with Drummond as well, the hypothetical frontcourt mate for him needed to be a 3 point shooter, and elite defender and shotblocker... and a player that was way better than him.

I feel like a lot of uncertainty about this team's future and where we could possibly end up or not end up is based on how Cade is not good enough right not. Which is why all the picking at Ivey, Duren, Stew and Ausar is missing what's really going on. Like, we're in an era of NBA basketball of inflated scoring, inflated numbers, fast pace, and touch fouls and we have a high usage guard with the keys to the offense and all the touches he can handle that barely averages 22 a night. And that guy is about to get franchise money... when it's obvious that a franchise player is not on the roster yet.

The reality is that by a players third year (and yes, this is his third year regardless of how much many people like to pretend the second year doesn't count) you really want a lot more consistency and reliability than what we've been getting.

Snakebites wrote:The reality is that by a players third year (and yes, this is his third year regardless of how much many people like to pretend the second year doesn't count) you really want a lot more consistency and reliability than what we've been getting.

I waffle on Cade. You can see the potential, but it's feeling more & more like a pattern. I want to believe, but I have a very bad feeling about this. I've learned to trust that feeling.

But then where do you go from there? If we aren't building around Cade, then wtf do we even have? Unless we unexpectedly pull a franchise player outa this draft, we *need* Cade to be the guy. What are you going to be able to trade him for??

It all feels bad. If we reset the board and take another stab or 2 at the lottery we are adding 2-3 years and just adding to the losing culture.

Cade needs to be healthy & he needs to be the guy. ****.

Cowology wrote:

Snakebites wrote:The reality is that by a players third year (and yes, this is his third year regardless of how much many people like to pretend the second year doesn't count) you really want a lot more consistency and reliability than what we've been getting.

I waffle on Cade. You can see the potential, but it's feeling more & more like a pattern. I want to believe, but I have a very bad feeling about this. I've learned to trust that feeling.

But then where do you go from there? If we aren't building around Cade, then wtf do we even have? Unless we unexpectedly pull a franchise player outa this draft, we *need* Cade to be the guy. What are you going to be able to trade him for??

It all feels bad. If we reset the board and take another stab or 2 at the lottery we are adding 2-3 years and just adding to the losing culture.

Cade needs to be healthy & he needs to be the guy. ****.

We’re stuck. It reminds me of when we maxed Drummond. There were concerns at the time which proved 100 percent correct but we had to do it.

This feels much the same. And as concerning as my doubts about Cade are they are dwarfed by my concerns about everyone else.

Snakebites wrote:

Cowology wrote:

Snakebites wrote:The reality is that by a players third year (and yes, this is his third year regardless of how much many people like to pretend the second year doesn't count) you really want a lot more consistency and reliability than what we've been getting.

I waffle on Cade. You can see the potential, but it's feeling more & more like a pattern. I want to believe, but I have a very bad feeling about this. I've learned to trust that feeling.

But then where do you go from there? If we aren't building around Cade, then wtf do we even have? Unless we unexpectedly pull a franchise player outa this draft, we *need* Cade to be the guy. What are you going to be able to trade him for??

It all feels bad. If we reset the board and take another stab or 2 at the lottery we are adding 2-3 years and just adding to the losing culture.

Cade needs to be healthy & he needs to be the guy. ****.

We’re stuck. It reminds me of when we maxed Drummond. There were concerns at the time which proved 100 percent correct but we had to do it.

This feels much the same. And as concerning as my doubts about Cade are they are dwarfed by my concerns about everyone else.

Sorry. The Cade situation is nothing like Drummond's. Cade’s 3rd year (2nd to some) is in the same ballpark as SGA's. It's not *as* good but he's also played way less games. Cade’s skillset is still relevant now and he would still be an asset into his next contract.

Drummond was an idiot with empty stats. The instant that we signed Drummond to his contact he became untradeable. His style of play became a dinosaur in the league and we were the team dumb enough to be the last to pay big money for it. (Unless you count Phoenix with Ayton).

Billl wrote:

Laimbeer wrote:I wonder what our evaluation and potential contract would be if Cade were drafted #15 and playing like this?

Playing like what? 22/7/4 on 45/35 splits? Those are all big improvements from his rookie year. The shooting is up +3/+4, and frankly, he's shown he can do much better than that. If he continues to make improvement, there is no doubt he's a max player. I have no doubt that a 27 yr old cade is going to be a heck of a player as long as he stays healthy though. But sure, you are still paying on potential at 22. That just what happens with the current salary structure of rookie deals + extensions.

At some point you have to believe your lyin' eyes. Why do we think he has such great potential? This gets to my earlier point. How much hope is based on what we have seen and how much is based on his being first overall? I think it's mostly being first overall. If he were picked #15 and playing at this level no one would be talking max.

Laimbeer wrote:

Billl wrote:

Laimbeer wrote:I wonder what our evaluation and potential contract would be if Cade were drafted #15 and playing like this?

Playing like what? 22/7/4 on 45/35 splits? Those are all big improvements from his rookie year. The shooting is up +3/+4, and frankly, he's shown he can do much better than that. If he continues to make improvement, there is no doubt he's a max player. I have no doubt that a 27 yr old cade is going to be a heck of a player as long as he stays healthy though. But sure, you are still paying on potential at 22. That just what happens with the current salary structure of rookie deals + extensions.

At some point you have to believe your lyin' eyes. Why do we think he has such great potential? This gets to my earlier point. How much hope is based on what we have seen and how much is based on his being first overall? I think it's mostly being first overall. If he were picked #15 and playing at this level no one would be talking max.

Him being a max young player is just the reality of the NBA. RFAs get paid but what type of contract are you thinking?

If Cade was ever on the trading block a bunch of teams would come after him and offer up a bag. Those 20 game runs of all star level play he puts up eventually are going to be the norm. Hes a young player on a really bad team of course hes going to be inconsistent.

Its pretty obv that hes going to be one of the best passers ITL for the next decade. When we actually put players that can shoot around him his 3pt% is going to be above league average. He was a 40% college shooter and hes a 87% FT shooter. Reason why it will go up is when you have spacing on the court you get much better shots.

Not every young player is like Luka where they can carry bad teams to wins. This roster is terrible. Get some players out there that fit Cades game and hes going to be a all star regularly.

buzzkilloton wrote:If Cade was ever on the trading block a bunch of teams would come after him and offer up a bag. Those 20 game runs of all star level play he puts up eventually are going to be the norm. Hes a young player on a really bad team of course hes going to be inconsistent.

Its pretty obv that hes going to be one of the best passers ITL for the next decade. When we actually put players that can shoot around him his 3pt% is going to be above league average. He was a 40% college shooter and hes a 87% FT shooter. Reason why it will go up is when you have spacing on the court you get much better shots.

Not every young player is like Luka where they can carry bad teams to wins. This roster is terrible. Get some players out there that fit Cades game and hes going to be a all star regularly.

He definitely needs help

I think next year is going to be a monster year from him

MotownMadness wrote:

buzzkilloton wrote:If Cade was ever on the trading block a bunch of teams would come after him and offer up a bag. Those 20 game runs of all star level play he puts up eventually are going to be the norm. Hes a young player on a really bad team of course hes going to be inconsistent.

He definitely needs help

I think next year is going to be a monster year from him

Yeah hes made good improvements on his game from rookie year. My only concern with him really is these injuries that keep popping up. Even this recent slump has happened when he hit the injury report. I think if he was 100% healthy this year the numbers look much better.

Hes going to become more efficient when we get good players around him that fit his game. Weaver hasnt put any thought to fit with the roster build. Its just grab the guys he thinks have "upside" and throw them on the court. Hell we started Killian next to Cade for alot of his career hes not even a NBA player.

Now I'm not expecting Cade to be a Harden in his prime that is automatic ticket to 50-60 wins. I see him developing into more of a top 15-20ish player that should be a #2 on a good team. We still need to add a big time talent and I dont see it coming from our "core 4".

Next year will be interesting because its a really good draft. Our roster is so damn terrible the best play likely is to just stink it up again and hope to land one of those studs.

Cade's talent is undeniable, but so are his chronic injury issues. The category of 'would have been great if he could only have stayed healthy' beckons. Hope not, but it's hard not to acknowledge.

Granted Cade has missed a fair amount of time to injury the first few seasons. But the left knee strain that he's been dealing with is presumably related to the stress fracture surgery from last year and not necessarily a new issue that's come about.

From memory, Jrue Holiday was the same after he had surgery to repair a tibial stress fracture in early 2014 which prematurely ended his season. He had lingering pain and was only able to play 40 games the next season but for the next 4 seasons after he played 65+ games.

Cade is already at 59 games this season and looks likely to play at least a few more so I'd say he's doing OK and we should be able to expect a year of relative health next season.

Invictus88 wrote:

Snakebites wrote:

Cowology wrote:I waffle on Cade. You can see the potential, but it's feeling more & more like a pattern. I want to believe, but I have a very bad feeling about this. I've learned to trust that feeling.

But then where do you go from there? If we aren't building around Cade, then wtf do we even have? Unless we unexpectedly pull a franchise player outa this draft, we *need* Cade to be the guy. What are you going to be able to trade him for??

It all feels bad. If we reset the board and take another stab or 2 at the lottery we are adding 2-3 years and just adding to the losing culture.

Cade needs to be healthy & he needs to be the guy. ****.

We’re stuck. It reminds me of when we maxed Drummond. There were concerns at the time which proved 100 percent correct but we had to do it.

This feels much the same. And as concerning as my doubts about Cade are they are dwarfed by my concerns about everyone else.

Sorry. The Cade situation is nothing like Drummond's. Cade’s 3rd year (2nd to some) is in the same ballpark as SGA's. It's not *as* good but he's also played way less games. Cade’s skillset is still relevant now and he would still be an asset into his next contract.

Drummond was an idiot with empty stats. The instant that we signed Drummond to his contact he became untradeable. His style of play became a dinosaur in the league and we were the team dumb enough to be the last to pay big money for it. (Unless you count Phoenix with Ayton).

It’s similar in that Cade probably isn’t worth a max at this stage but we have no choice but to do it anyway.

I agree Cade is better than Drummond. The reasons he’s not worth it are completely different.

It’s also fair to say his impact on winning is only better than Dre’s IF he’s healthy. And that’s proving to be a massive IF.

Snakebites wrote:

Invictus88 wrote:

Snakebites wrote:
We’re stuck. It reminds me of when we maxed Drummond. There were concerns at the time which proved 100 percent correct but we had to do it.

This feels much the same. And as concerning as my doubts about Cade are they are dwarfed by my concerns about everyone else.

Sorry. The Cade situation is nothing like Drummond's. Cade’s 3rd year (2nd to some) is in the same ballpark as SGA's. It's not *as* good but he's also played way less games. Cade’s skillset is still relevant now and he would still be an asset into his next contract.

Drummond was an idiot with empty stats. The instant that we signed Drummond to his contact he became untradeable. His style of play became a dinosaur in the league and we were the team dumb enough to be the last to pay big money for it. (Unless you count Phoenix with Ayton).

It’s similar in that Cade probably isn’t worth a max at this stage but we have no choice but to do it anyway.

I agree Cade is better than Drummond. The reasons he’s not worth it are completely different.

It’s also fair to say his impact on winning is only better than Dre’s IF he’s healthy. And that’s proving to be a massive IF.

Cade is going to be a winning player. We just need to surround him with the right players. Troys done a awful job on building the proper roster around him. You can see the growth in his game from his rookie year.

Give Cade some players that can space the floor,defend, and how about adding a all star level vet. I mentioned this in another post but looking back at it now we should of just kept Grant and payed him. I liked the deal at first but thinking more big picture having a guy like Grant who can hit 3pters at a 40% clip and is a solid defender would of been more valuable to our teams development. Centers are just not that valuable overall outside of the true unicorn types that do everything. Duren is more in that traditional center role except he doesnt provide the rim protection.

*for Cades health though for him to get there. Mr.Peanut mentioned this in another thread today but Jrue Holiday had the same surgery as Cade. I remember reading about it and Jrue had alot of trouble coming back that next season and he missed a bunch of time. After that season was over though he turned it around and became the Jrue we all know and love. Ofc Jrue has been a guy whos missed alot of time over his career but hes still been a very valuable player.

buzzkilloton wrote:

Snakebites wrote:

Invictus88 wrote:
Sorry. The Cade situation is nothing like Drummond's. Cade’s 3rd year (2nd to some) is in the same ballpark as SGA's. It's not *as* good but he's also played way less games. Cade’s skillset is still relevant now and he would still be an asset into his next contract.

Drummond was an idiot with empty stats. The instant that we signed Drummond to his contact he became untradeable. His style of play became a dinosaur in the league and we were the team dumb enough to be the last to pay big money for it. (Unless you count Phoenix with Ayton).

It’s similar in that Cade probably isn’t worth a max at this stage but we have no choice but to do it anyway.

I agree Cade is better than Drummond. The reasons he’s not worth it are completely different.

It’s also fair to say his impact on winning is only better than Dre’s IF he’s healthy. And that’s proving to be a massive IF.

Cade is going to be a winning player. We just need to surround him with the right players. Troys done a awful job on building the proper roster around him. You can see the growth in his game from his rookie year.

Give Cade some players that can space the floor,defend, and how about adding a all star level vet. I mentioned this in another post but looking back at it now we should of just kept Grant and payed him. I liked the deal at first but thinking more big picture having a guy like Grant who can hit 3pters at a 40% clip and is a solid defender would of been more valuable to our teams development. Centers are just not that valuable overall outside of the true unicorn types that do everything. Duren is more in that traditional center role except he doesnt provide the rim protection.

*for Cades health though for him to get there. Mr.Peanut mentioned this in another thread today but Jrue Holiday had the same surgery as Cade. I remember reading about it and Jrue had alot of trouble coming back that next season and he missed a bunch of time. After that season was over though he turned it around and became the Jrue we all know and love. Ofc Jrue has been a guy whos missed alot of time over his career but hes still been a very valuable player.

I hope you’re right.

I’m concerned both by the number of games he misses and how much playing at less than 100 percent seems to impact his level of play.