Can Ausar and Duren play together in today’s NBA?

[Cowology]

Probably not, but that's not gonna stop us.

[Mr Peanut]

Yes, but only in two scenarios.

1. They are surrounded by three elite 3 point shooters (i.e. >40% on 4+ attempts per game)

2. Ausar develops a passable three point shot (i.e. at least 33% on 3-4 attempts per game)

Scenario 1 seems unlikely as while I can see Cade and Ivey develop into "good" three point shooters, I don't see them being elite. Scenario 2 more likely but he has a long way to go before reaching that point.

[Crymson]

I’m not sure Ausar can play if he can’t improve from where he is as a shooter.

Full stop.

He’s not good enough to build around fully and it’s hard to be a supporting piece as a non big without at least some shooting ability- even minimally.

Bingo. Non-shooting perimeter guys are extinct for a reason: no matter how good they are on defense, the steep cost of fielding them in an offense-focused league almost invariably makes them worthwhile. The only exceptions are superstar-caliber talents with teams built to ameliorate that weakness.

If Ausar doesn't become a decent shooter, he's likeliest to hover around the edges of the league as a reclamation project for awhile before flunking out.

The front office was dumb to structure the forwards such that he'd be relied upon for significant minutes in the event of a single injury. He's very game-ready on defense but exceptionally raw in the halfcourt on offense, to such an extent that he's virtually guaranteed to be a massive drain (which he has been).

[Kalamazoo317]

These are all the reasons I wanted a forward that could shoot with that pick ... but Ausar is on our team now, so I'm rooting for him.

[FloridaMan78]

It’s pretty crazy how the NBA has changed. I went through all the starting lineups in the NBA. The Pistons are the only team with two non shooters in the starting lineup. Half the teams have their starting 5 all capable three point shooters, who all happen to be on top of the standings.

All of the non shooters were centers or Giannis or Zion. Specialists are non existent in the NBA.

I’m rooting for the kid, but Ausar has a long way to go, and it’s going to be tough for him to develop on team of developing players. Someone’s growth will be stunted. No doubt he has talent, but in today’s NBA you have to be able to shoot.

[bstein14]

Cleveland has Evan Mobley and Jarret Allen.
New York has Randle (28% from deep this year) and Mitchell Robinson.
Portland has Ayton and Scoot (28% from deep but climbing).


So yes, most NBA teams only have 1 starter (or no starters) that aren't hitting at least 33% from deep. We are likely the only team with 4 rotation players shooting below 33% from deep.

[vege]

So yes, most NBA teams only have 1 starter (or no starters) that aren't hitting at least 33% from deep. We are likely the only team with 4 rotation players shooting below 33% from deep.

Our issues are a lot deeper than that.

We currently have 5 guys that are playing below replacement level in terms of efficiency. Ivey/Killian/Livers/Wiseman/Harris.

We currently have 5 guys in our rotation that are at the bottom of the league in terms of defense. Cade/Ivey/Livers/Bojan/Burks.

Killian Livers Wiseman and Joe Harris shouldn't be in the NBA, and none of them should be getting any minutes for us. If you cut the fat, we'd improve as a team.

We need to remove all the inept NBA players from our rotation, minus Ivey, who's awful but have been showing some improvement at least.

After that, you start demanding more from our players on the defensive end.

Then you can start talking about shooting being a problem.

Our roster is broken, our Coach and our FO (who's being influencing the lineups) are stupid and inept. There is a lot to fix.

Ausar should be playing and he should be playing more. He is a very high BBIQ guy. He knows how to cut, he knows how to attack in space. He need to improve his handles and his shooting and the game need to slow down for him but I see no reason why Ausar and Duren can't play together. They're both good passers and high BBIQ players and they're at the top of the league in offensive rebounds.

They need 3 shooters around them, Cade can be a good shooter, but he need 2 more elite shooters next to him.

Jalen Duren / Isaiah Stewart (Bagley is Stew is injured)
Kevin Knox / Isaiah Stewart / Ausar Thompson
Bojan Bogdanovic / Ausar Thompson
Cade Cunningham / Jaden Ivey / Alec Burks
Marcus Sasser / Jaden Ivey

Play Ivey and Stew 30 mins off the bench. Play Ausar 20+ minutes.

[BDM22]

I still want to see Duren expand his game out a bit more. We've seen the flashes of the 10-15 footer but he basically never takes them unless he's forced to at the end of the clock or something. Pop for a couple of in-rhythm midrange shots per game to test the waters. Now is the time to see. Bagley and Wiseman seem free to shoot that all the time. It wouldn't shock me if he were the one to grow his range before Ausar.

[Crymson]

I still want to see Duren expand his game out a bit more. We've seen the flashes of the 10-15 footer but he basically never takes them unless he's forced to at the end of the clock or something. Pop for a couple of in-rhythm midrange shots per game to test the waters. Now is the time to see. Bagley and Wiseman seem free to shoot that all the time. It wouldn't shock me if he were the one to grow his range before Ausar.

Monty isn't quite willing to focus on development in what has unequivocally become another development year, so I don't think you should get your hopes up on anything of this sort.

He's moved past burying Ivey (perhaps only due to intervention from Gores) on to letting him cook but refusing to let him ever be lead handler on his own (he plays Killian instead and won't have Ivey on the floor without Cade), Sasser gets DNPs in favor of Killian and Burks, Ausar is going underutilized and uncoached, and Duren is being used in a comically bad drop defense scheme much of the time that simply leaves the handler open to shoot. Aside from Cade -- who's being asked to carry in constant "take the ball and score" sets and spent much of the first six weeks of the season being played in lineups with drastically inadequate spacing and hardly any help -- the only player who's actually gotten development minutes is Wiseman, who is utterly hopeless (and even that might be at the behest of the fools who traded for him).

Monty Williams is a complete nincompoop of a coach who's neglecting the future in favor of incompetently focusing on the now. It's dumbfounding how bad he's been. I'm starting to come around to the idea that he's trying to get himself fired, because he was nowhere near this inept in his previous coaching stints. Definitely limited, but competent.

Only this organization could end up with so hilariously bad of a hire as this one. They paid a record-large guaranteed salary to a coach who didn't want to coach, and they got an absolute lemon in the process.

[FloridaMan78]

So yes, most NBA teams only have 1 starter (or no starters) that aren't hitting at least 33% from deep. We are likely the only team with 4 rotation players shooting below 33% from deep.

Our issues are a lot deeper than that.

We currently have 5 guys that are playing below replacement level in terms of efficiency. Ivey/Killian/Livers/Wiseman/Harris.

We currently have 5 guys in our rotation that are at the bottom of the league in terms of defense. Cade/Ivey/Livers/Bojan/Burks.

Killian Livers Wiseman and Joe Harris shouldn't be in the NBA, and none of them should be getting any minutes for us. If you cut the fat, we'd improve as a team.

We need to remove all the inept NBA players from our rotation, minus Ivey, who's awful but have been showing some improvement at least.

After that, you start demanding more from our players on the defensive end.

Then you can start talking about shooting being a problem.

Our roster is broken, our Coach and our FO (who's being influencing the lineups) are stupid and inept. There is a lot to fix.

Ausar should be playing and he should be playing more. He is a very high BBIQ guy. He knows how to cut, he knows how to attack in space. He need to improve his handles and his shooting and the game need to slow down for him but I see no reason why Ausar and Duren can't play together. They're both good passers and high BBIQ players and they're at the top of the league in offensive rebounds.

They need 3 shooters around them, Cade can be a good shooter, but he need 2 more elite shooters next to him.

Jalen Duren / Isaiah Stewart (Bagley is Stew is injured)
Kevin Knox / Isaiah Stewart / Ausar Thompson
Bojan Bogdanovic / Ausar Thompson
Cade Cunningham / Jaden Ivey / Alec Burks
Marcus Sasser / Jaden Ivey

Play Ivey and Stew 30 mins off the bench. Play Ausar 20+ minutes.

So let’s say Ausar improves to 25% from three, which would be a huge improvement, and Duren at 0% non threat from three, and they could be competitive in today’s NBA?

I disagree. It wouldn’t matter if you have two other elite three point shooters next to Cade, defenses would just cheat off Ausar and Duren every play.

[FloridaMan78]

Cleveland has Evan Mobley and Jarret Allen.
New York has Randle (28% from deep this year) and Mitchell Robinson.
Portland has Ayton and Scoot (28% from deep but climbing).


So yes, most NBA teams only have 1 starter (or no starters) that aren't hitting at least 33% from deep. We are likely the only team with 4 rotation players shooting below 33% from deep.

There’s a reason why Cleveland is shopping Jarret Allen, A lot of trade rumors with him.

Julius Randle is a career 33% three point shooter and is a threat out there getting up over 6 threes a game since he’s been with New York.

And obviously Scoot has to get better.

You cannot have two guys on the floor that are complete non threats from three.

It doesn’t matter how elite the other guys are.

[BDM22]

So yes, most NBA teams only have 1 starter (or no starters) that aren't hitting at least 33% from deep. We are likely the only team with 4 rotation players shooting below 33% from deep.

Our issues are a lot deeper than that.

We currently have 5 guys that are playing below replacement level in terms of efficiency. Ivey/Killian/Livers/Wiseman/Harris.

We currently have 5 guys in our rotation that are at the bottom of the league in terms of defense. Cade/Ivey/Livers/Bojan/Burks.

Killian Livers Wiseman and Joe Harris shouldn't be in the NBA, and none of them should be getting any minutes for us. If you cut the fat, we'd improve as a team.

We need to remove all the inept NBA players from our rotation, minus Ivey, who's awful but have been showing some improvement at least.

After that, you start demanding more from our players on the defensive end.

Then you can start talking about shooting being a problem.

Our roster is broken, our Coach and our FO (who's being influencing the lineups) are stupid and inept. There is a lot to fix.

Ausar should be playing and he should be playing more. He is a very high BBIQ guy. He knows how to cut, he knows how to attack in space. He need to improve his handles and his shooting and the game need to slow down for him but I see no reason why Ausar and Duren can't play together. They're both good passers and high BBIQ players and they're at the top of the league in offensive rebounds.

They need 3 shooters around them, Cade can be a good shooter, but he need 2 more elite shooters next to him.

Jalen Duren / Isaiah Stewart (Bagley is Stew is injured)
Kevin Knox / Isaiah Stewart / Ausar Thompson
Bojan Bogdanovic / Ausar Thompson
Cade Cunningham / Jaden Ivey / Alec Burks
Marcus Sasser / Jaden Ivey

Play Ivey and Stew 30 mins off the bench. Play Ausar 20+ minutes.

So let’s say Ausar improves to 25% from three, which would be a huge improvement, and Duren at 0% non threat from three, and they could be competitive in today’s NBA?

I disagree. It wouldn’t matter if you have two other elite three point shooters next to Cade, defenses would just cheat off Ausar and Duren every play.

I just don't believe Ausar's baseline is truly as a 15% 3 point shooter, even if that's what his number currently says.

He showed improvement in OTE, around 30% in the regular season and 40+% on high volume in the playoffs. He shot (a still terrible) 27.3% in summer league, and 40% in preseason. Nowhere has he shot 15% until now.

I think he had that stretch early in the season with the airballs where it got in his head a little bit with a particularly bad stretch, but I think he's more in the (again, still very terrible) 25% range now, and his improvement will be aiming toward 30+%, which is totally doable, and plenty of guys jump into that range. Someone like Trevor Ariza was a total non-shooter, usually in the low-20's (with a similar FT% to Ausar's) that ended up becoming a 35-38% guy on decent volume for his prime.

That's why I think he should still be (starting and) taking like 3-4 per game minimum, especially while this team is so terrible. There is literally nothing to lose because we're already gonna lose anyways. I want to see what happens when he gets a couple in a row to drop.

[vege]

So yes, most NBA teams only have 1 starter (or no starters) that aren't hitting at least 33% from deep. We are likely the only team with 4 rotation players shooting below 33% from deep.

Our issues are a lot deeper than that.

We currently have 5 guys that are playing below replacement level in terms of efficiency. Ivey/Killian/Livers/Wiseman/Harris.

We currently have 5 guys in our rotation that are at the bottom of the league in terms of defense. Cade/Ivey/Livers/Bojan/Burks.

Killian Livers Wiseman and Joe Harris shouldn't be in the NBA, and none of them should be getting any minutes for us. If you cut the fat, we'd improve as a team.

We need to remove all the inept NBA players from our rotation, minus Ivey, who's awful but have been showing some improvement at least.

After that, you start demanding more from our players on the defensive end.

Then you can start talking about shooting being a problem.

Our roster is broken, our Coach and our FO (who's being influencing the lineups) are stupid and inept. There is a lot to fix.

Ausar should be playing and he should be playing more. He is a very high BBIQ guy. He knows how to cut, he knows how to attack in space. He need to improve his handles and his shooting and the game need to slow down for him but I see no reason why Ausar and Duren can't play together. They're both good passers and high BBIQ players and they're at the top of the league in offensive rebounds.

They need 3 shooters around them, Cade can be a good shooter, but he need 2 more elite shooters next to him.

Jalen Duren / Isaiah Stewart (Bagley is Stew is injured)
Kevin Knox / Isaiah Stewart / Ausar Thompson
Bojan Bogdanovic / Ausar Thompson
Cade Cunningham / Jaden Ivey / Alec Burks
Marcus Sasser / Jaden Ivey

Play Ivey and Stew 30 mins off the bench. Play Ausar 20+ minutes.

So let’s say Ausar improves to 25% from three, which would be a huge improvement, and Duren at 0% non threat from three, and they could be competitive in today’s NBA?

I disagree. It wouldn’t matter if you have two other elite three point shooters next to Cade, defenses would just cheat off Ausar and Duren every play.

Shooting is important, but Ausar and Duren are not inept offensive players, they can do a lot of things. If they're left open they'll make the defense pay. They're not Stew or Killian Hayes.

[DetroitDon15]

The issue with Ansur is that he isn’t a fit with a lineup of weak shooters. We have a non shooting big in Duren and a guy who isn’t considered a three point shooter in Cade. Ansur would look better as a wing player with a team like Denver who has a big who doesn’t need to stay in the lane and can shot on the arch. The Ansur pick was a bad fit. We all knew when drafting that he wasn’t a three point threat and lacked shooting range/ability. The results are exactly what I expected. I don’t think that Mont is Coach Q level like everyone is making him out to be. The roster is bad with pieces that don’t fit. If we are saying Cade/Duren are the franchise building pieces, Ansur (and maybe Ivey too) need to be moved for pieces that fit. Simple as that.

[zeebneeb]

The issue with Ansur is that he isn’t a fit with a lineup of weak shooters. We have a non shooting big in Duren and a guy who isn’t considered a three point shooter in Cade. Ansur would look better as a wing player with a team like Denver who has a big who doesn’t need to stay in the lane and can shot on the arch. The Ansur pick was a bad fit. We all knew when drafting that he wasn’t a three point threat and lacked shooting range/ability. The results are exactly what I expected. I don’t think that Mont is Coach Q level like everyone is making him out to be. The roster is bad with pieces that don’t fit. If we are saying Cade/Duren are the franchise building pieces, Ansur (and maybe Ivey too) need to be moved for pieces that fit. Simple as that.

I wouldn't be so quick to throw Cade and Ivey under the bus for shooting just yet. Both are starting to round into form when it comes to that part of their game;

Cade season- .340%
Ivey season- .340%

Cade last 9 games-.409%
Ivey last 9 games-.444%

I think both are going to be fine in the long run.

[DetroitDon15]

The issue with Ansur is that he isn’t a fit with a lineup of weak shooters. We have a non shooting big in Duren and a guy who isn’t considered a three point shooter in Cade. Ansur would look better as a wing player with a team like Denver who has a big who doesn’t need to stay in the lane and can shot on the arch. The Ansur pick was a bad fit. We all knew when drafting that he wasn’t a three point threat and lacked shooting range/ability. The results are exactly what I expected. I don’t think that Mont is Coach Q level like everyone is making him out to be. The roster is bad with pieces that don’t fit. If we are saying Cade/Duren are the franchise building pieces, Ansur (and maybe Ivey too) need to be moved for pieces that fit. Simple as that.

I wouldn't be so quick to throw Cade and Ivey under the bus for shooting just yet. Both are starting to round into form when it comes to that part of their game;

Cade season- .340%
Ivey season- .340%

Cade last 9 games-.409%
Ivey last 9 games-.444%

I think both are going to be fine in the long run.

My comment was more about the fit of Ansur. I don’t see the fit with Duren. I’m looking for areas and who we can trade to improve the roster. I just don’t see the long term fit with Ansur and want to move him before value goes down.

[whitehops]

you can play 2 non-shooting threats in the same lineup and be successful, just look at NOP (zion and JV) and CLE (allen and mobley). the difference those players have is that they're great at other things and STILL have to be surrounded by quality players. it's not an absolute that you can't have 2 non-shooters in the same lineup, it just makes it a lot more difficult because all 5 players in the lineup have to have greater skills to make up for the lack of shooting.

duren and ausar are far away from that level currently.

[breezypeezy]

So Killian and Slow Stew can fail for multiple years, get bend over backward excuses for patience, and Auser is supposed to be deemed incapable, non-fitting piece after 30 games?

[SuperBad]

Our pieces don’t fit! If want Ausar and Duran to be on the floor together we will definitely need a lot more shooting to make up for them

[Billl]

So Killian and Slow Stew can fail for multiple years, get bend over backward excuses for patience, and Auser is supposed to be deemed incapable, non-fitting piece after 30 games?

You've got a pretty selective memory of Killian's time here. And stew was our center, so it didn't matter as much if he couldn't shoot.