It's time! Ping-pong balls of doom. Sunday May 12th 3pm

[buzzkilloton]

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KD was 2nd in MVP voting to Lebron at 21 years old when he led OKC to 50 wins. When KD was Cade's age today (22) he was taking his team to the Western Conference Finals! It's not a comparison you really want to use here.

You don't find it at all concerning that Cade played in 9 wins out of 62 games he played this year? 0.145 winning percentage with him versus 0.250 without? That we got worse when he came back this year compared to last? No hesitation here?

No red flags that maybe he's not the #1 guy to go all-in around? That maybe selling while that #1 pick allure is still there to a degree might be the way forward? It doesn't last forever. That max contract number tends to brings things back to reality. Especially if the injuries keep adding up.

Oh its making my point exactly how it was intended. The point was NOT to say Cade is Durant or a Durant level projected player. The point is to say a player even as great as Durant during his 2nd full season where he already was awesome, it still was not good enough to take the Sonics to playin level on his own. So using a young player in just his 2nd FULL season as a pro coming off a serious injury that clearly wasnt right the first half of the season not getting us to the playin as a barometer for success is just absurd.

[BDM22]

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KD was 2nd in MVP voting to Lebron at 21 years old when he led OKC to 50 wins. When KD was Cade's age today (22) he was taking his team to the Western Conference Finals! It's not a comparison you really want to use here.

You don't find it at all concerning that Cade played in 9 wins out of 62 games he played this year? 0.145 winning percentage with him versus 0.250 without? That we got worse when he came back this year compared to last? No hesitation here?

No red flags that maybe he's not the #1 guy to go all-in around? That maybe selling while that #1 pick allure is still there to a degree might be the way forward? It doesn't last forever. That max contract number tends to brings things back to reality. Especially if the injuries keep adding up.

Oh its making my point exactly how it was intended. The point was NOT to say Cade is Durant or a Durant level projected player. The point is to say a player even as great as Durant during his 2nd full season where he already was awesome, it still was not good enough to take the Sonics to playin level on his own. So using a young player in just his 2nd FULL season as a pro coming off a serious injury that clearly wasnt right the first half of the season not getting us to the playin as a barometer for success is just absurd.

Speaking of "2nd full season" I'm still waiting for Cade's 1st FULL season... So far he's only played in 56% of our games.

I don't expect him to get us to the play-in by himself or whatever. But I do expect that after missing a whole season, we shouldn't get worse when he comes back. The Killian/Ivey backcourt led us to a better record in the last 2 years than when you swap Cade in for either one of them. That has to be at least a little concerning if you look at it objectively.

[buzzkilloton]

KD was 2nd in MVP voting to Lebron at 21 years old when he led OKC to 50 wins. When KD was Cade's age today (22) he was taking his team to the Western Conference Finals! It's not a comparison you really want to use here.

You don't find it at all concerning that Cade played in 9 wins out of 62 games he played this year? 0.145 winning percentage with him versus 0.250 without? That we got worse when he came back this year compared to last? No hesitation here?

No red flags that maybe he's not the #1 guy to go all-in around? That maybe selling while that #1 pick allure is still there to a degree might be the way forward? It doesn't last forever. That max contract number tends to brings things back to reality. Especially if the injuries keep adding up.

Oh its making my point exactly how it was intended. The point was NOT to say Cade is Durant or a Durant level projected player. The point is to say a player even as great as Durant during his 2nd full season where he already was awesome, it still was not good enough to take the Sonics to playin level on his own. So using a young player in just his 2nd FULL season as a pro coming off a serious injury that clearly wasnt right the first half of the season not getting us to the playin as a barometer for success is just absurd.

Speaking of "2nd full season" I'm still waiting for Cade's 1st FULL season...

I don't expect him to get us to the play-in by himself or whatever. But I do expect that after missing a whole season, we shouldn't get worse when he comes back. The Killian/Ivey backcourt led us to more wins in the last 2 years than when you swap Cade in for either one of them. That has to be at least a little concerning if you look at it objectively.

If you know ball at all you could see that when Cade got healthy and got his feet under him post ASB he was playing much improved efficient ball. You could see the improvements in every level of his game and how he became one of the best passers ITL at just 22 years old despite playing on a offense with no spacing. Thats in not only the stats but the eye test. Ofc thats if you know ball.

Also I love how you're one of the most vocal Monty haters on the board. Then when it comes to Cade Cunningham not a word about Monty being a god awful coach. It doesnt matter it doesnt fit your narrative now.

[BDM22]

I might be one of the few Pistons fans that is happy with the #5. High salary on weak drafts hurts many time the development of the player and restricting minutes of a #1 is complicated. The media, ownership and so on put a lot of pressure on the early picks. If they don't kill it in SL the bust label starts.

Additionally, I'd rather take Topic or Buzelis than the French guys.

Disagree about Topic (too similar a draft profile to Killian), but I agree that the #5 is a fine result and the #1 has baggage that isn't ideal in this draft. Maybe #3 or 4 would be slightly better in case you have a specific player to target fit-wise, but it's such a crap shoot this year that it's basically impossible to predict who is going to the best player available at any of these spots.

If it makes anyone feel any better, if Bagley or Wiseman were in this draft they would absolutely both go over Sarr

[BDM22]

Oh its making my point exactly how it was intended. The point was NOT to say Cade is Durant or a Durant level projected player. The point is to say a player even as great as Durant during his 2nd full season where he already was awesome, it still was not good enough to take the Sonics to playin level on his own. So using a young player in just his 2nd FULL season as a pro coming off a serious injury that clearly wasnt right the first half of the season not getting us to the playin as a barometer for success is just absurd.

Speaking of "2nd full season" I'm still waiting for Cade's 1st FULL season...

I don't expect him to get us to the play-in by himself or whatever. But I do expect that after missing a whole season, we shouldn't get worse when he comes back. The Killian/Ivey backcourt led us to more wins in the last 2 years than when you swap Cade in for either one of them. That has to be at least a little concerning if you look at it objectively.

If you know ball at all you could see that when Cade got healthy and got his feet under him post ASB he was playing much improved efficient ball. You could see the improvements in every level of his game and how he became one of the best passers ITL at just 22 years old despite playing on a offense with no spacing. Thats in not only the stats but the eye test. Ofc thats if you know ball.

Also I love how you're one of the most vocal Monty haters on the board. Then when it comes to Cade Cunningham not a word about Monty being a god awful coach. It doesnt matter it doesnt fit your narrative now.

Never said Cade was going to be bad at all. The question is franchise cornerstone, #1 guy. I've been saying for a long time that if he can stay healthy (questionable), makes perimeter shooting a real asset like it looked in college (more likely), and somehow salvages his defense (highly questionable), he's a really good #2 guy to play off of a Wemby or a Jokic or a Giannis level player.

But he's got to have a pretty crazy development trajectory to get into this category of #1 guys you can compete for a title based around IMO. And we're basically at the point of commitment now with that $225M deal looming. If he doesn't turn into that or if he never stays healthy, his value will never be as high as it is today with that #1 pick allure still there a little bit.

[bstein14]

Speaking of "2nd full season" I'm still waiting for Cade's 1st FULL season...

I don't expect him to get us to the play-in by himself or whatever. But I do expect that after missing a whole season, we shouldn't get worse when he comes back. The Killian/Ivey backcourt led us to more wins in the last 2 years than when you swap Cade in for either one of them. That has to be at least a little concerning if you look at it objectively.

If you know ball at all you could see that when Cade got healthy and got his feet under him post ASB he was playing much improved efficient ball. You could see the improvements in every level of his game and how he became one of the best passers ITL at just 22 years old despite playing on a offense with no spacing. Thats in not only the stats but the eye test. Ofc thats if you know ball.

Also I love how you're one of the most vocal Monty haters on the board. Then when it comes to Cade Cunningham not a word about Monty being a god awful coach. It doesnt matter it doesnt fit your narrative now.

Never said Cade was going to be bad at all. The question is franchise cornerstone, #1 guy. I've been saying for a long time that if he can stay healthy (highly questionable), makes perimeter shooting a real asset like it looked in college, and somehow salvages his defense, he's a really good #2 guy to play off of a Wemby or a Jokic or a Giannis.

But he's got to have a pretty crazy development trajectory to get into this category of #1 guys you can compete for a title based around IMO. And we're basically at the point of commitment now with that $225M deal looming. If he doesn't turn into that or if he never stays healthy, his value will never be as high as it is today with that #1 pick allure still there a little bit.

The thing is though, #1 and #2 guys are worth a max deal in the NBA... the mistake GM (Weaver) make is when you give too many guys money (Hayes $7.4, Bagley $12, Wiseman $12) that are bench or fringe rotation players. It's fine to stack the money up for anyone who is a top 50 to 70 player in the league many of those guys are max or near max guys.

[BDM22]

If you know ball at all you could see that when Cade got healthy and got his feet under him post ASB he was playing much improved efficient ball. You could see the improvements in every level of his game and how he became one of the best passers ITL at just 22 years old despite playing on a offense with no spacing. Thats in not only the stats but the eye test. Ofc thats if you know ball.

Also I love how you're one of the most vocal Monty haters on the board. Then when it comes to Cade Cunningham not a word about Monty being a god awful coach. It doesnt matter it doesnt fit your narrative now.

Never said Cade was going to be bad at all. The question is franchise cornerstone, #1 guy. I've been saying for a long time that if he can stay healthy (highly questionable), makes perimeter shooting a real asset like it looked in college, and somehow salvages his defense, he's a really good #2 guy to play off of a Wemby or a Jokic or a Giannis.

But he's got to have a pretty crazy development trajectory to get into this category of #1 guys you can compete for a title based around IMO. And we're basically at the point of commitment now with that $225M deal looming. If he doesn't turn into that or if he never stays healthy, his value will never be as high as it is today with that #1 pick allure still there a little bit.

The thing is though, #1 and #2 guys are worth a max deal in the NBA... the mistake GM (Weaver) make is when you give too many guys money (Hayes $7.4, Bagley $12, Wiseman $12) that are bench or fringe rotation players. It's fine to stack the money up for anyone who is a top 50 to 70 player in the league many of those guys are max or near max guys.

Yeah, I'm 100% fine with Cade making $225M if you have Wemby, Jokic, Giannis, etc next to him. You can (and have to) overpay the 2nd guy as that's kind of how it goes. The issue is getting into all this money and presumably going all in (or close to it) without the #1 in place.

Some will depend on the moves we make. If we just sign Cade to the max, draft a player #5, maybe move an Ivey or Duren for a better fit, and try to sign a decent free agent or 2, it's not the end of the world. But I suspect the "let's win 32 games" mandate will be higher and we'll sell off more than that or commit to some crazy contract like a Lavine.

[buzzkilloton]

Speaking of "2nd full season" I'm still waiting for Cade's 1st FULL season...

.

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Never said Cade was going to be bad at all. The question is franchise cornerstone, #1 guy. I've been saying for a long time that if he can stay healthy (highly questionable), makes perimeter shooting a real asset like it looked in college, and somehow salvages his defense, he's a really good #2 guy to play off of a Wemby or a Jokic or a Giannis.

But he's got to have a pretty crazy development trajectory to get into this category of #1 guys you can compete for a title based around IMO. And we're basically at the point of commitment now with that $225M deal looming. If he doesn't turn into that or if he never stays healthy, his value will never be as high as it is today with that #1 pick allure still there a little bit.

Only a handful of players reach franchise cornerstone #1 guys. He very likely will top out as a 2 like a Devin Booker level player. Even if hes just a two though its not easy to find twos esp for us. Ofc its possible the big breakout is coming and he levels up to that next level like Curry or SGA did a bit later on even if its not the likely outcome.

Also keep in mind just because we have Cade doesnt mean we cant still find our #1 guy later. Maybe that guy comes when we get lucky in next years lotto. Look at two of the names you just listed of the 3 Giannis was a mid first and Jokic was a 2nd rounder. Not saying those are likely finds but its possible.

Maybe down the road we take the route of adding a vet like CP3 like the Suns did with Booker and thats how we turn into a contender. I wouldnt say the Knicks have real title equity with the injuries but their a damn good team who built themselves into that through a Brunson signing,trades, and good coaching. Diff routes of becoming a winner it doesnt have to just be from hitting the magic lotto ball in the right class.

If we top out as a team who cant get past the ECF but we have multiple seasons of fun exciting basketball I'll take it as this point. I understand the "title or bust mentality" but after the past 15 seasons just give me a team that wins some playoff series and hits the ECF 2 or 3 times and I'll be ecstatic. Were now pre Dan C Lions level bad. Cades the only beacon of hope Pistons fans have at this point.

I also understand their is a bear case where Cade is a injury prone vegan who is the next Brandon Roy and we should of traded him. Their is also a mid range outcome where we keep him and hes all star level and he demands a trade in a few years and we get the haul of picks regardless. Trading him now doesnt guarantee we get anything as good as him either its taken us alot of losing to find one all star level talent.

[BDM22]

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Never said Cade was going to be bad at all. The question is franchise cornerstone, #1 guy. I've been saying for a long time that if he can stay healthy (highly questionable), makes perimeter shooting a real asset like it looked in college, and somehow salvages his defense, he's a really good #2 guy to play off of a Wemby or a Jokic or a Giannis.

But he's got to have a pretty crazy development trajectory to get into this category of #1 guys you can compete for a title based around IMO. And we're basically at the point of commitment now with that $225M deal looming. If he doesn't turn into that or if he never stays healthy, his value will never be as high as it is today with that #1 pick allure still there a little bit.

Only a handful of players reach franchise cornerstone #1 guys. He very likely will top out as a 2 like a Devin Booker level player. Even if hes just a two though its not easy to find twos esp for us. Ofc its possible the big breakout is coming and he levels up to that next level like Curry or SGA did a bit later on even if its not the likely outcome.

Also keep in mind just because we have Cade doesnt mean we cant still find our #1 guy later. Maybe that guy comes when we get lucky in next years lotto. Look at two of the names you just listed of the 3 Giannis was a mid first and Jokic was a 2nd rounder. Not saying those are likely finds but its possible.

Maybe down the road we take the route of adding a vet like CP3 like the Suns did with Booker and thats how we turn into a contender. I wouldnt say the Knicks have real title equity with the injuries but their a damn good team who built themselves into that through a Brunson signing,trades, and good coaching. Diff routes of becoming a winner it doesnt have to just be from hitting the magic lotto ball in the right class.

If we top out as a team who cant get past the ECF but we have multiple seasons of fun exciting basketball I'll take it as this point. I understand the "title or bust mentality" but after the past 15 seasons just give me a team that wins some playoff series for half a decade and I can live with it. Were now pre Dan C Lions level I just want to be able to watch meaningful basketball games March-May again.

I also understand their is a bear case where Cade is a injury prone vegan who is the next Brandon Roy and we should of traded him. Their is also a mid range outcome where we keep him and hes all star level and he demands a trade in a few years and we get the haul of picks regardless. Trading him now doesnt guarantee we get anything as good as him either its taken us alot of losing to find one all star level talent.

It is a little ironic that you made the comparison that we're in the pre-Dan Campbell Lions era which is when the Lions traded their former #1 overall pick QB for future picks and built through the draft.

[Kalamazoo317]

KAT as a high level #2 didn't stop the T'Wolves from getting a #1 down the line. Booker as a high level #2 didn't stop the Suns from obtaining a #1 in Durant (other issues with their team building aside). There are plenty of cases like this where a team was able to obtain and hold onto their #2 and still get their #1 later. When you have so few top 100 players on your roster, I'd rather focus on trying to get more of those, not sell off the one we have for *chances* at getting more.

[BDM22]

KAT as a high level #2 didn't stop the T'Wolves from getting a #1 down the line. Booker as a high level #2 didn't stop the Suns from obtaining a #1 in Durant (other issues with their team building aside). There are plenty of cases like this where a team was able to obtain and hold onto their #2 and still get their #1 later. When you have so few top 100 players on your roster, I'd rather focus on trying to get more of those, not sell off the one we have for *chances* at getting more.

Yeah, the Wolves are probably what you would hope for, though the way they got ANT was basically KAT getting hurt with them hovering a bit over .500 and then they absolutely tanked the rest of the season and got the #1 pick. If KAT stayed healthy, they're not in the same situation and they're probably still floating around the late lottery like they were for a while.

I'd rather not require that kind of scenario to happen for this rebuild to start making sense. Banking on injuries, etc.

[flow]

KAT as a high level #2 didn't stop the T'Wolves from getting a #1 down the line. Booker as a high level #2 didn't stop the Suns from obtaining a #1 in Durant (other issues with their team building aside). There are plenty of cases like this where a team was able to obtain and hold onto their #2 and still get their #1 later. When you have so few top 100 players on your roster, I'd rather focus on trying to get more of those, not sell off the one we have for *chances* at getting more.

Yeah, the Wolves are probably what you would hope for, though the way they got ANT was basically KAT getting hurt with them hovering a bit over .500 and then they absolutely tanked the rest of the season and got the #1 pick. If KAT stayed healthy, they're not in the same situation and they're probably still floating around the late lottery like they were for a while.

I'd rather not require that kind of scenario to happen for this rebuild to start making sense. Banking on injuries, etc.

Not sure they really tanked. Minus KAT they were probably the worst team/roster in the league that season. And their coach, Ryan Saunders, was underqualified and in way over his head.

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[BDM22]

KAT as a high level #2 didn't stop the T'Wolves from getting a #1 down the line. Booker as a high level #2 didn't stop the Suns from obtaining a #1 in Durant (other issues with their team building aside). There are plenty of cases like this where a team was able to obtain and hold onto their #2 and still get their #1 later. When you have so few top 100 players on your roster, I'd rather focus on trying to get more of those, not sell off the one we have for *chances* at getting more.

Yeah, the Wolves are probably what you would hope for, though the way they got ANT was basically KAT getting hurt with them hovering a bit over .500 and then they absolutely tanked the rest of the season and got the #1 pick. If KAT stayed healthy, they're not in the same situation and they're probably still floating around the late lottery like they were for a while.

I'd rather not require that kind of scenario to happen for this rebuild to start making sense. Banking on injuries, etc.

Not sure they really tanked. Minus KAT they were probably the worst team/roster in the league that season. And their coach, Ryan Saunders, was underqualified and in way over his head.

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Well, that point is kind of inconsequential in the end. Either KAT was hurt so they were terrible or he got hurt so they were terrible and then the Wolves just kept him out toward the end of the season to keep the record as bad as possible. Either way it worked, but it's not something you can count on.

[Kalamazoo317]

You can’t count on *anything* when it comes to getting franchise players. Not that you’ll get them at number one, not that you can’t get them in the second round, not that you can’t steal one in a trade, or that the star you overpaid for in a trade will remain one, and not even that a player already on your roster won’t turn into one. There’s no singular, guaranteed path. I for one am done with being bad on purpose, as that’s only ever guaranteed we were bad.

[JennetteMcCurdy]

It is a little ironic that you made the comparison that we're in the pre-Dan Campbell Lions era which is when the Lions traded their former #1 overall pick QB for future picks and built through the draft.

Post of the year!!!!!!!

[JennetteMcCurdy]

The thing is though, #1 and #2 guys are worth a max deal in the NBA... the mistake GM (Weaver) make is when you give too many guys money (Hayes $7.4, Bagley $12, Wiseman $12) that are bench or fringe rotation players. It's fine to stack the money up for anyone who is a top 50 to 70 player in the league many of those guys are max or near max guys.

Let’s not forget Stewart

[jars]

You have to be pretty sure of your scouting department to be able to hit in the back end of the lottery or later and our scouting department has not been good for a long time. You can't expect us to find all star calibre players in that range For every one of these stars, there are 4x as many busts or role players in the same range.

I get the more chances we have, the more likely it is to land a star theory, but these aren't ping pong balls in a lottery and there is an element of institutional skill in identifying talent which we haven't had in the same way that Memphis and OKC have in the past. Unless we get a PoBB who brings in a scouting team who does have this skill, I just don't trust us to land a star in that range, so I would prefer to stand pat and run the course.

Then we're cooked either way so none of this matters lol. If we're not gonna find a true franchise player with a few shots per draft, how are we going to find it with 1?

It's easier to hit higher up the draft. There are usually consensus guys in the media and around in the top 5-7 such as the guys we have taken with #5 picks the last two years.

Let me just remind you of the outcomes of trades moving backwards in the top 10 over the last few years:
2023
Washington received pick 7 (Bilal Coulibaly) & Indiana received pick 8 (Jarace Walker) and two second rounders. Outcome: TBC but I lean towards Washington.

2020-2022 - no top 10 trades.

2019
Atlanta received pick 4 (Deandre Hunter), a late second rounder, and Solomon Hill & NOP received No. 8 (Jaxson Hayes), No. 17 (Alexander-Walker), an early second. Outcome: Everyone loses. Hawks probably win because at least Hunter plays.
Wolves received pick 6 (Jarrett Culver) & Phoenix received pick 11 (Cam Johnson) and Dario Saric.Outcome: Suns win this, but they famously said they didn't even scout Cam Johnson properly, so it is proof that even a broken clock is right twice a day.

2018
Dallas received pick 3 (Luka Doncic) & Atlanta received pick 5 (Trae Young) and a future first (Cam Reddish).Outcome: Mavs win this.
Phoenix received pick 10 (Mikal Bridges) & Philly received pick 16 (Zhaire Smith) and a future first (traded in a package for Tobias Harris Pick used on Tre Mann). Outcome: Suns win this.

2017
Chicago received Zach LaVine, Kris Dunn, No. 7 pick (Lauri Markkanen) & Minnesota received Jimmy Butler, No. 16 pick (Justin Patton). Outcome: Meh. Maybe Chicago win because Jimmy Butler embarrassed TWolves players and execs, but Jimmy is the best player by far.
And of note - Jazz received pick 13 (Donovan Mitchell) & Denver received Trey Lyles and pick 24 (Tyler Lydon). Outcome: Jazz win easily.

History tells us trading back rarely works because they team that trades up tends to win the trade and get the best player in the trade. I'm not just saying I don't trust our scouting team, I'm saying it takes a special scouting department to be prepared to make the trade.

[buzzkilloton]

It is a little ironic that you made the comparison that we're in the pre-Dan Campbell Lions era which is when the Lions traded their former #1 overall pick QB for future picks and built through the draft.

Post of the year!!!!!!!

He was clearly trolling(I think) but if you really believe it was Matt Stafford holding the Lions back then you dont know ball. The reason the Lions are winning now is because they have a GM who can draft. You can have all the draft capital in the world but if you arent capable of drafting the right players it doesnt matter.

The Rams couldnt win the title until they traded for Matt Stafford who pushed them over the edge. Goff is pretty good too but he doesnt have the deep ball of Stafford that unlocks another level to an offense. Time will tell if Goff is enough to win a super bowl with a roster that has super bowl level talent this time. Sean Mcvay is a great coach and he clearly didnt buy Goff being able to get it done and he was proven correct with that trade so far.

Lions fans should be happy for Stafford. He gave us some really good years on teams with terrible coaches. He was tough and he played hard. He was good enough for us to get Goff plus multiple picks when he approaching the later stages of his career clearly one of the greatest in Lions history. No way should he take any of the blame for the Lions suck as he has proven he was good enough to win a super bowl.

[BDM22]

You have to be pretty sure of your scouting department to be able to hit in the back end of the lottery or later and our scouting department has not been good for a long time. You can't expect us to find all star calibre players in that range For every one of these stars, there are 4x as many busts or role players in the same range.

I get the more chances we have, the more likely it is to land a star theory, but these aren't ping pong balls in a lottery and there is an element of institutional skill in identifying talent which we haven't had in the same way that Memphis and OKC have in the past. Unless we get a PoBB who brings in a scouting team who does have this skill, I just don't trust us to land a star in that range, so I would prefer to stand pat and run the course.

Then we're cooked either way so none of this matters lol. If we're not gonna find a true franchise player with a few shots per draft, how are we going to find it with 1?

It's easier to hit higher up the draft. There are usually consensus guys in the media and around in the top 5-7 such as the guys we have taken with #5 picks the last two years.

Let me just remind you of the outcomes of trades moving backwards in the top 10 over the last few years:
2023
Washington received pick 7 (Bilal Coulibaly) & Indiana received pick 8 (Jarace Walker) and two second rounders. Outcome: TBC but I lean towards Washington.

2020-2022 - no top 10 trades.

2019
Atlanta received pick 4 (Deandre Hunter), a late second rounder, and Solomon Hill & NOP received No. 8 (Jaxson Hayes), No. 17 (Alexander-Walker), an early second. Outcome: Everyone loses. Hawks probably win because at least Hunter plays.
Wolves received pick 6 (Jarrett Culver) & Phoenix received pick 11 (Cam Johnson) and Dario Saric.Outcome: Suns win this, but they famously said they didn't even scout Cam Johnson properly, so it is proof that even a broken clock is right twice a day.

2018
Dallas received pick 3 (Luka Doncic) & Atlanta received pick 5 (Trae Young) and a future first (Cam Reddish).Outcome: Mavs win this.
Phoenix received pick 10 (Mikal Bridges) & Philly received pick 16 (Zhaire Smith) and a future first (traded in a package for Tobias Harris Pick used on Tre Mann). Outcome: Suns win this.

2017
Chicago received Zach LaVine, Kris Dunn, No. 7 pick (Lauri Markkanen) & Minnesota received Jimmy Butler, No. 16 pick (Justin Patton). Outcome: Meh. Maybe Chicago win because Jimmy Butler embarrassed TWolves players and execs, but Jimmy is the best player by far.
And of note - Jazz received pick 13 (Donovan Mitchell) & Denver received Trey Lyles and pick 24 (Tyler Lydon). Outcome: Jazz win easily.

History tells us trading back rarely works because they team that trades up tends to win the trade and get the best player in the trade. I'm not just saying I don't trust our scouting team, I'm saying it takes a special scouting department to be prepared to make the trade.

I wasn't talking about trading back, I was talking about acquiring multiple picks in drafts by trading guys like Cade, Duren, Ivey, etc. to give ourselves more chances.

[BDM22]

It is a little ironic that you made the comparison that we're in the pre-Dan Campbell Lions era which is when the Lions traded their former #1 overall pick QB for future picks and built through the draft.

Post of the year!!!!!!!

He was clearly trolling(I think) but if you really believe it was Matt Stafford holding the Lions back then you dont know ball. The reason the Lions are winning now is because they have a GM who can draft. You can have all the draft capital in the world but if you arent capable of drafting the right players it doesnt matter.

The Rams couldnt win the title until they traded for Matt Stafford who pushed them over the edge. Goff is pretty good too but he doesnt have the deep ball of Stafford that unlocks another level to an offense. Time will tell if Goff is enough to win a super bowl with a roster that has super bowl level talent this time. Sean Mcvay is a great coach and he clearly didnt buy Goff being able to get it done and he was proven correct with that trade so far.

Lions fans should be happy for Stafford. He gave us some really good years on teams with terrible coaches. He was tough and he played hard. He was good enough for us to get Goff plus multiple picks when he approaching the later stages of his career clearly one of the greatest in Lions history. No way should he take any of the blame for the Lions suck as he has proven he was good enough to win a super bowl.

In what way is that "trolling"?

Obviously the sports are very different, basketball is more reliant on having one top-5 type of talent at the helm... the thing we're missing, while football is more reliant on a well-rounded team. However, it's a perfect example of new management coming into a terribly constructed team and using the biggest asset on the roster as the trade chip to jumpstart the rebuild in the form of multiple picks in an attempt to target the thing(s) they were lacking through the draft. In our case here in Piston land, that thing is a #1 franchise player, which is extremely hard to find outside of the draft.