I hate it, but Weaver absolutely has to be fired.

[Piston Pete]

Nah. I was 100% for taking Haliburton that year over Hayes.

Although many liked Hayes, I know I wasn’t the only one screaming for us to take Haliburton instead.

Sure. Half the board wanted him over hayes. But you can say that about any player at any point in the draft. There is almost always a much better guy picked after him. Halliburton went 12th that year, so if that's why weaver deserves to be fired, then so do a lot of other GM's.

Nobody is saying to fire Weaver only based off taking Hayes over Haliburton.

But of those 11 other GMs, how many also wanted a PG from that draft and how many have also done jack squat to improve their team since?

Any other GMs have basically MAX cap space since then and punted it down the road repeatedly?

[BDM22]

it's one of the reasons i was pushing back when people were saying he was one of the best GMs in the league. he did a pretty good job with the teardown, but that's the easy part. it's easy to be bad, not easy to be good. how you start building the team back up is the hard part and i guess he assumes all his draft evaluations are brilliant and that they'll all develop to his vision of their potential.

safe to say that sam presti was the brains of the operation in OKC and weaver rode his coattails.

Presti passed on Alperen Sengun (he owned the pick that got him and blew it by trading him). He also passed on Jalen Duren for Ousmane Dieng. No GM is immune to making bad decisions (especially in the draft).

But Presti has been at it for decades in OKC so he's had a chance to build up the value of assets on the roster (helps to start with KD). He knew when to sell on guys (Paul George, Westbrook, etc), so that he could rebuild with assets like tons of picks and SGA. Something previous GM's in Detroit didn't know how to do and it's a big reason why this team has been terrible for decades. Not really on Weaver that he started with a dumpster fire though.

Presti also seems to have picked a good year to get lucky with the lotto balls in landing Chet. Something out of your control. This Pistons team with a spacer & elite help defender in the frontcourt like Chet looks a whole lot different, and that's just luck.

[Billl]

I'm sorry, but taking Hayes over Haliburton isn't just a miss. It's an all-time blunder in the making. Missing on a pick is one thing, but you better be damn sure that the guy you passed on -- at the same position -- isn't a hall-of-famer in waiting.

.

Nah, that's just monday morning quarterbacking. If ANYONE thought haliburton was going to be this good, he wouldn't have been there at 7 for us to pick from.

Of course it's Monday morning quarterbacking. For us. But it was Weaver's job to know that Haliburton is better that Hayes. Not a little better. Waaaay better. That's literally the reason he was hired. For millions of dollars. To scout them up and make the right decisions.

And I don't care what other teams did. We're the team that targeted a point guard. And we took a fringe point guard over a hall of fame point guard.

Nah, that's not how the draft works. Especially when you are drafting teenagers. Even the best GM's around miss fairly often. eg the spurs passed on Haliburton that year as well but that doesn't make Pop a bad evaluator of talent.

If you want to say Weaver deserves to be canned because he hasn't put a team together in 4 years, it's hard to argue with that. The team sucks right now. If you think he should be fired because he's bad at drafting, that's a stretch. He's drafted some pretty nice young talent for us. The part he's flopped at is putting complimentary pieces around them via trade or cap space.

[Laimbeer]

Weaver's best moves have been for players who aren't prototypes for being the highest impact in a three point driven league - Duren and Thompson. They are defense/role players - not a Batman or Robin.

He has questionable results so far on three of the four high picks that should be the heart of the rebuild - Cade, Ivey, and Hayes.

This isn't close to an acceptable return for the seasons we've endured.

[flow]

Nah, that's just monday morning quarterbacking. If ANYONE thought haliburton was going to be this good, he wouldn't have been there at 7 for us to pick from.

Of course it's Monday morning quarterbacking. For us. But it was Weaver's job to know that Haliburton is better that Hayes. Not a little better. Waaaay better. That's literally the reason he was hired. For millions of dollars. To scout them up and make the right decisions.

And I don't care what other teams did. We're the team that targeted a point guard. And we took a fringe point guard over a hall of fame point guard.

Nah, that's not how the draft works. Especially when you are drafting teenagers. Even the best GM's around miss fairly often. eg the spurs passed on Haliburton that year as well but that doesn't make Pop a bad evaluator of talent.

If you want to say Weaver deserves to be canned because he hasn't put a team together in 4 years, it's hard to argue with that. The team sucks right now. If you think he should be fired because he's bad at drafting, that's a stretch. He's drafted some pretty nice young talent for us. The part he's flopped at is putting complimentary pieces around them via trade or cap space.

Pop wasn't looking for a point guard. He took Devin Vassell, who's tearing it up.

.

[Billl]

Of course it's Monday morning quarterbacking. For us. But it was Weaver's job to know that Haliburton is better that Hayes. Not a little better. Waaaay better. That's literally the reason he was hired. For millions of dollars. To scout them up and make the right decisions.

And I don't care what other teams did. We're the team that targeted a point guard. And we took a fringe point guard over a hall of fame point guard.

Nah, that's not how the draft works. Especially when you are drafting teenagers. Even the best GM's around miss fairly often. eg the spurs passed on Haliburton that year as well but that doesn't make Pop a bad evaluator of talent.

If you want to say Weaver deserves to be canned because he hasn't put a team together in 4 years, it's hard to argue with that. The team sucks right now. If you think he should be fired because he's bad at drafting, that's a stretch. He's drafted some pretty nice young talent for us. The part he's flopped at is putting complimentary pieces around them via trade or cap space.

Pop wasn't looking for a point guard. He took Devin Vassell, who's tearing it up this season.

.

Ok - 2021 Spurs draft pick. Josh primo. Complete scrub taken #11 and is out of the league now completely. Also, a pretty bad human. The idea that good GM's pick the best player available every year is complete nonsense. You won't find any GM's that haven't passed on all-star players and/or drafted complete busts. That's just the nature of the beast. The good GM's just manage to get it right more often then the bad ones. They still make at on of mistakes though.

[Laimbeer]

Nah, that's not how the draft works. Especially when you are drafting teenagers. Even the best GM's around miss fairly often. eg the spurs passed on Haliburton that year as well but that doesn't make Pop a bad evaluator of talent.

If you want to say Weaver deserves to be canned because he hasn't put a team together in 4 years, it's hard to argue with that. The team sucks right now. If you think he should be fired because he's bad at drafting, that's a stretch. He's drafted some pretty nice young talent for us. The part he's flopped at is putting complimentary pieces around them via trade or cap space.

Pop wasn't looking for a point guard. He took Devin Vassell, who's tearing it up this season.

.

Ok - 2021 Spurs draft pick. Josh primo. Complete scrub taken #11 and is out of the league now completely. Also, a pretty bad human. The idea that good GM's pick the best player available every year is complete nonsense. You won't find any GM's that haven't passed on all-star players and/or drafted complete busts. That's just the nature of the beast. The good GM's just manage to get it right more often then the bad ones. They still make at on of mistakes though.

But Weaver has shown an uncanny ability to take one of the worst players in the range available. Look at the five picks immediately *after* we picked.

2020 - (Hayes) Toppin, Avdija, Smith, Vassel, and Haliburton have all been better.

2021 - (Cade) Mobley, Barnes, and Giddey have been better. Suggs and Green, jury is out.

2022 - (Ivey) Mathurin, Sharpe, and Daniels have been better. Jury out on Sochan. Davis is worse.

It's not just "everybody misses sometimes". He has been really bad, year after year.

[mattao313]

Pop wasn't looking for a point guard. He took Devin Vassell, who's tearing it up this season.

.

Ok - 2021 Spurs draft pick. Josh primo. Complete scrub taken #11 and is out of the league now completely. Also, a pretty bad human. The idea that good GM's pick the best player available every year is complete nonsense. You won't find any GM's that haven't passed on all-star players and/or drafted complete busts. That's just the nature of the beast. The good GM's just manage to get it right more often then the bad ones. They still make at on of mistakes though.

But Weaver has shown an uncanny ability to take one of the worst players in the range available. Look at the five picks immediately *after* we picked.

2020 - (Hayes) Toppin, Avdija, Smith, Vassel, and Haliburton have all been better.

2021 - (Cade) Mobley, Barnes, and Giddey have been better. Suggs and Green, jury is out.

2022 - (Ivey) Mathurin, Sharpe, and Daniels have been better. Jury out on Sochan. Davis is worse.

It's not just "everybody misses sometimes". He has been really bad, year after year.

Mathurin, Sharpe, or Daniel haven't been better than Ivey at all.

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[Billl]

Pop wasn't looking for a point guard. He took Devin Vassell, who's tearing it up this season.

.

Ok - 2021 Spurs draft pick. Josh primo. Complete scrub taken #11 and is out of the league now completely. Also, a pretty bad human. The idea that good GM's pick the best player available every year is complete nonsense. You won't find any GM's that haven't passed on all-star players and/or drafted complete busts. That's just the nature of the beast. The good GM's just manage to get it right more often then the bad ones. They still make at on of mistakes though.

But Weaver has shown an uncanny ability to take one of the worst players in the range available. Look at the five picks immediately *after* we picked.

2020 - (Hayes) Toppin, Avdija, Smith, Vassel, and Haliburton have all been better.

2021 - (Cade) Mobley, Barnes, and Giddey have been better. Suggs and Green, jury is out.

2022 - (Ivey) Mathurin, Sharpe, and Daniels have been better. Jury out on Sochan. Davis is worse.

It's not just "everybody misses sometimes". He has been really bad, year after year.

Nonsense. Cade and ivey were really good picks. As were duren and hopefully ausar. Stew and bey turned into solid picks for where they were. The only wild miss has been Hayes.
The problem isn't the draft. The problem is that the ONLY guys the team has are guys we drafted. We haven't added talent any other way and that's a massive problem - especially for a team without a war chest of draft picks. Weaver has taken a couple of swings at reclamation projects and those flopped. And he's punted cap space every year with nothing to show for it.

[mattao313]

Ok - 2021 Spurs draft pick. Josh primo. Complete scrub taken #11 and is out of the league now completely. Also, a pretty bad human. The idea that good GM's pick the best player available every year is complete nonsense. You won't find any GM's that haven't passed on all-star players and/or drafted complete busts. That's just the nature of the beast. The good GM's just manage to get it right more often then the bad ones. They still make at on of mistakes though.

But Weaver has shown an uncanny ability to take one of the worst players in the range available. Look at the five picks immediately *after* we picked.

2020 - (Hayes) Toppin, Avdija, Smith, Vassel, and Haliburton have all been better.

2021 - (Cade) Mobley, Barnes, and Giddey have been better. Suggs and Green, jury is out.

2022 - (Ivey) Mathurin, Sharpe, and Daniels have been better. Jury out on Sochan. Davis is worse.

It's not just "everybody misses sometimes". He has been really bad, year after year.

Nonsense. Cade and ivey were really good picks. As were duren and hopefully ausar. Stew and bey turned into solid picks for where they were. The only wild miss has been Hayes.
The problem isn't the draft. The problem is that the ONLY guys the team has are guys we drafted. We haven't added talent any other way and that's a massive problem - especially for a team without a war chest of draft picks. Weaver has taken a couple of swings at reclamation projects and those flopped. And he's punted cap space every year with nothing to show for it.

Hayes was a terrible pick and imo Stewart was a bad pick and horrible trade.

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[NYPiston]

delete

[mattao313]

Mathurin, Sharpe, or Daniel haven't been better than Ivey at all.

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Sharpe is undoubtedly better than Ivey.

No he isn't he gets more minutes and shots that's it. His coach doesn't park him in the corner for 20 minutes a game.

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[whitehops]

Presti passed on Alperen Sengun (he owned the pick that got him and blew it by trading him). He also passed on Jalen Duren for Ousmane Dieng. No GM is immune to making bad decisions (especially in the draft).

But Presti has been at it for decades in OKC so he's had a chance to build up the value of assets on the roster (helps to start with KD). He knew when to sell on guys (Paul George, Westbrook, etc), so that he could rebuild with assets like tons of picks and SGA. Something previous GM's in Detroit didn't know how to do and it's a big reason why this team has been terrible for decades. Not really on Weaver that he started with a dumpster fire though.

Presti also seems to have picked a good year to get lucky with the lotto balls in landing Chet. Something out of your control. This Pistons team with a spacer & elite help defender in the frontcourt like Chet looks a whole lot different, and that's just luck.

presti took over the team when they were still the supersonics with no asset other than a rookie durant and their own picks. in their 3rd season under him they made the playoffs and would only miss it again once in the next 11 years. even when they lost superstars like durant, westbrook, harden, PG, etc. he kept them competitive. now, when they decided to re-tool he again got them back to the playoffs in their third season. nobody is perfect but presti is widely considered one of the best for a reason, it's why weaver got so much hype as his right-hand man.

weaver started with virtually no positive assets but turned over the entire roster in one season (so no continuity), took every opportunity he could to get younger and worse players (so no leadership). in his first off season he traded kennard and bruce brown, two young players on a rebuild timeline for picks and then brought in "his guys" like josh jack, diallo, bagley and wiseman. he's also made no effort to upgrade positions (besides bojan) even when guys clearly weren't working out. he made stewart transition to PF and then just gifted him a starting spot despite him transitioning to a position he never played before.

he said he wanted to build a culture but i don't know how you do that by willingly acquiring players nobody else wanted, hence a bunch of them being out of the league (josh jackson, frank jackson, diallo, knox, okafor) and soon to be wiseman, hayes and bagley. that's a lot of assets you had (players, picks or cap space) that are now worth nothing.

[BDM22]

Presti passed on Alperen Sengun (he owned the pick that got him and blew it by trading him). He also passed on Jalen Duren for Ousmane Dieng. No GM is immune to making bad decisions (especially in the draft).

But Presti has been at it for decades in OKC so he's had a chance to build up the value of assets on the roster (helps to start with KD). He knew when to sell on guys (Paul George, Westbrook, etc), so that he could rebuild with assets like tons of picks and SGA. Something previous GM's in Detroit didn't know how to do and it's a big reason why this team has been terrible for decades. Not really on Weaver that he started with a dumpster fire though.

Presti also seems to have picked a good year to get lucky with the lotto balls in landing Chet. Something out of your control. This Pistons team with a spacer & elite help defender in the frontcourt like Chet looks a whole lot different, and that's just luck.

presti took over the team when they were still the supersonics with no asset other than a rookie durant and their own picks. in their 3rd season under him they made the playoffs and would only miss it again once in the next 11 years. even when they lost superstars like durant, westbrook, harden, PG, etc. he kept them competitive. now, when they decided to re-tool he again got them back to the playoffs in their third season. nobody is perfect but presti is widely considered one of the best for a reason, it's why weaver got so much hype as his right-hand man.

weaver started with virtually no positive assets but turned over the entire roster in one season (so no continuity), took every opportunity he could to get younger and worse players (so no leadership). in his first off season he traded kennard and bruce brown, two young players on a rebuild timeline for picks and then brought in "his guys" like josh jack, diallo, bagley and wiseman. he's also made no effort to upgrade positions (besides bojan) even when guys clearly weren't working out. he made stewart transition to PF and then just gifted him a starting spot despite him transitioning to a position he never played before.

he said he wanted to build a culture but i don't know how you do that by willingly acquiring players nobody else wanted, hence a bunch of them being out of the league (josh jackson, frank jackson, diallo, knox, okafor) and soon to be wiseman, hayes and bagley. that's a lot of assets you had (players, picks or cap space) that are now worth nothing.

Yeah, starting your rebuild with a top-5 scorer in the history of the league vs. starting with Luke Kennard is a pretty sizable difference, I would say, and not something to gloss over. He also had Ray Allen in his prime to trade when he took over the Sonics, if you recall, which netted him a bonus 5th overall pick to go along with Durant. So yeah, prime Ray Allen as trade bait and rookie Kevin Durant is a pretty decent spot to start a rebuild, I'd say.

And yeah, when you start with Luke Kennard as your most valuable asset, you fill out the roster with low-risk options that you don't have to dump huge contracts on like the Jacksons, Diallo, Knox, etc. Guys that will sign in Detroit for a chance to play minutes.

He also signed Jerami Grant that netted us Jalen Duren. He traded scraps for Bogey, who could probably land us a late-1st here at some point. I'd like to see bigger signings, but I also don't want another Charlie Villanueva, Josh Smith, Jon Leuer type of panic move, so I'm not going to say dump money on anyone just to say you spent the money. That's a surefire way to kill a rebuild if you get it wrong, so I'd rather they be sure it's someone who is going to fit.

[whitehops]

And yeah, when you start with Luke Kennard as your most valuable asset, you fill out the roster with low-risk options that you don't have to dump huge contracts on like the Jacksons, Diallo, Knox, etc. Guys that will sign in Detroit for a chance to play minutes.

He also signed Jerami Grant that netted us Jalen Duren. He traded scraps for Bogey, who could probably land us a late-1st here at some point. I'd like to see bigger signings, but I also don't want another Charlie Villanueva, Josh Smith, Jon Leuer type of panic move, so I'm not going to say dump money on anyone just to say you spent the money. That's a surefire way to kill a rebuild if you get it wrong, so I'd rather they be sure it's someone who is going to fit.

i liked the grant and bojan moves, ironically a lot of people wanted to trade them for... more picks. and relying on an entire roster of draft picks and most of them not panning out kills a rebuild too. with signing/trading for vets they are at least more known quantities and help developing players.

the reality is the young guys weaver has assembled are so far below nba-level in so many key facets it has created an environment where it's virtually impossible to develop. how is cade supposed to develop as a play maker when anyone he passes to can't score, can't make quick decisions and can't attack the paint? how is duren supposed to develop as a paint defender when rotations are being blown left, right and center? how are the perimeter guys supposed to get better at screen navigation when stuff isn't being communicated to them?

the league is way too skilled and smart now to give this group a chance to succeed.

[Crymson]

Weaver and company have pursued a very imbalanced and ill-advised management strategy. No doubt about that. And they've failed to find any long-term impact talent outside of the top five beyond Duren and maybe Stewart.

I doubt Weaver was responsible for hiring Monty -- it had all the hallmarks of aTom Gores shortcut hire -- and Monty has had his own very large share of culpability in how things have gone this season. He has been AWFUL.

[Laimbeer]

Ok - 2021 Spurs draft pick. Josh primo. Complete scrub taken #11 and is out of the league now completely. Also, a pretty bad human. The idea that good GM's pick the best player available every year is complete nonsense. You won't find any GM's that haven't passed on all-star players and/or drafted complete busts. That's just the nature of the beast. The good GM's just manage to get it right more often then the bad ones. They still make at on of mistakes though.

But Weaver has shown an uncanny ability to take one of the worst players in the range available. Look at the five picks immediately *after* we picked.

2020 - (Hayes) Toppin, Avdija, Smith, Vassel, and Haliburton have all been better.

2021 - (Cade) Mobley, Barnes, and Giddey have been better. Suggs and Green, jury is out.

2022 - (Ivey) Mathurin, Sharpe, and Daniels have been better. Jury out on Sochan. Davis is worse.

It's not just "everybody misses sometimes". He has been really bad, year after year.

Nonsense. Cade and ivey were really good picks. As were duren and hopefully ausar. Stew and bey turned into solid picks for where they were. The only wild miss has been Hayes.
The problem isn't the draft. The problem is that the ONLY guys the team has are guys we drafted. We haven't added talent any other way and that's a massive problem - especially for a team without a war chest of draft picks. Weaver has taken a couple of swings at reclamation projects and those flopped. And he's punted cap space every year with nothing to show for it.

Calling it nonsense and just saying they were good picks doesn't make it so. I've shown how poorly they have fared against players picked immediately after them.

That said, I agree the talent we've added otherwise isn't verry good, either.

[BDM22]

But Weaver has shown an uncanny ability to take one of the worst players in the range available. Look at the five picks immediately *after* we picked.

2020 - (Hayes) Toppin, Avdija, Smith, Vassel, and Haliburton have all been better.

2021 - (Cade) Mobley, Barnes, and Giddey have been better. Suggs and Green, jury is out.

2022 - (Ivey) Mathurin, Sharpe, and Daniels have been better. Jury out on Sochan. Davis is worse.

It's not just "everybody misses sometimes". He has been really bad, year after year.

Nonsense. Cade and ivey were really good picks. As were duren and hopefully ausar. Stew and bey turned into solid picks for where they were. The only wild miss has been Hayes.
The problem isn't the draft. The problem is that the ONLY guys the team has are guys we drafted. We haven't added talent any other way and that's a massive problem - especially for a team without a war chest of draft picks. Weaver has taken a couple of swings at reclamation projects and those flopped. And he's punted cap space every year with nothing to show for it.

Calling it nonsense and just saying they were good picks doesn't make it so. I've shown how poorly they have fared against players picked immediately after them.

That said, I agree the talent we've added otherwise isn't verry good, either.

Sharpe is averaging 17/5/3 per 36 this year on 42% and 35% 3FG
Ivey averaged 19/5/6 per 36 as a ROOKIE on 42% and 34% 3FG

Neither play defense. I just don't see how anyone can say Sharpe is definitively better really at anything. They are very comparable talents, same with Mathurin, which is why they were taken back-to-back-to-back. This team sucks just as bad with Monty benching Sharpe (or Math) for his terrible D instead of Ivey lol. As for Daniels, he's basically Killian Hayes if Killian were a worse free throw shooter and a better rebounder. New Orleans would drive Daniels to the airport immediately if Weaver offered Ivey for him lol

As for 2021, certainly Mobley and Scottie have been a bit better overall than Cade, but Cade still has the best possibility to become a #1 guy of all of them IMO. It's not like there's anyone taken right after Cade that is just leaps and bounds better than him. They're all pretty close, so that's a good result. Maybe just bad timing to use up your lottery luck when there were like 4-5 guys that were pretty comparable (Mobley, Scottie, Cade, Franz... no, not Giddey lol).

For 2020 you're right but that draft was a disaster up and down the 1st round. Somehwhat due to Covid. Probably shouldn't have traded for a extra picks in that draft when the pre-draft process was so useless that year.

[zeebneeb]

One things for sure, there is never a shortage of hindsight warriors.

If your so good, stop replying on RealGM, and go apply for a job with the Pistons.

There is NO WAY it could be worse the it is right now.

[Laimbeer]

One things for sure, there is never a shortage of hindsight warriors.

If your so good, stop replying on RealGM, and go apply for a job with the Pistons.

There is NO WAY it could be worse the it is right now.

Geez, maybe we should stop criticizing any players until we try out.