2023-2024 Rotation/Minutes

[Kalamazoo317]

i'm fine with cade getting as many minutes as he's getting because there's one thing that's almost never talked about in a player's development and that's conditioning. it's almost impossible to simulate in-game conditioning so the only way to improve it is to play the minutes.

another part is learning when/how to conserve your energy and still be impactful so you can be on the floor longer. lebron is the poster child for this.

On the flip side, Cade should get benched more when he makes mistakes (dumb pass, bad turnover, bad shot selection, letting his guy blow past him on defense) but he seems to get a pass. In terms of minutes and usage he’s given superstar treatment but he hasn’t proven anything yet.

[vege]

Jalen Duren 34 / Isaiah Stewart 14
Bojan Bogdanovic 16 / Isaiah Stewart 18 / Isaiah Livers 14
Ausar Thompson 34 / Bojan Bogdanovic 10 / Isaiah Livers 4
Jaden Ivey 32 / Alec Burks 14 / Bojan Bogdanovic 2
Cade Cunningham 36 / Alec Burks 12

[Neptune]

Jalen Duren 34 / Isaiah Stewart 14
Bojan Bogdanovic 16 / Isaiah Stewart 18 / Isaiah Livers 14
Ausar Thompson 34 / Bojan Bogdanovic 10 / Isaiah Livers 4
Jaden Ivey 32 / Alec Burks 14 / Bojan Bogdanovic 2
Cade Cunningham 36 / Alec Burks 12

OK Vege, now your posting facts!

[MortSahlfan]

Bojan can't play the 2.. My guess is that he plays more minutes at the 4 than the 3. If a guy doesn't have the foot speed, use his strength.

[Kalamazoo317]

36 minutes is too much for Cade. He needs the Ivey treatment. Ivey responded well to being benched and has made better decisions and played more under control since (and been sharper on defense). Cade needs to stop forcing shots, making bad passes, and falling asleep on defense. He shouldn't be getting 36 minutes until he can get sharper on these things. If success starts at top and he's supposed to be our franchise player, it's time he started being held accountable (and holding himself accountable) because failure starts at the top too.

[vege]

36 minutes is too much for Cade. He needs the Ivey treatment. Ivey responded well to being benched and has made better decisions and played more under control since (and been sharper on defense). Cade needs to stop forcing shots, making bad passes, and falling asleep on defense. He shouldn't be getting 36 minutes until he can get sharper on these things. If success starts at top and he's supposed to be our franchise player, it's time he started being held accountable (and holding himself accountable) because failure starts at the top too.

https://craftednba.com/player-traits/replacement

Jaden Ivey - 21
Killian Hayes - 39
Ausar Thompson - 68
Marvin Bagley - 85
Cade Cunningham - 87
Marcus Sasser - 91
Isaiah Stewart - 112
Alec Burks - 224

Total of 293 players

Ivey is the 21st worst player in the league according to this advanced metrics. Only 293 players played enough minutes to be evaluated, and only 8 from our roster. Ivey is the worst, Burks is the best. Look at the difference between Cade and Ivey.

https://craftednba.com/players/jaden-ivey

Jaden Ivey is still at the bottom in every advanced metric as a defender. He have a lot of work to do. His offense is fine, and have always been fine.

Even on his worst days Cade is heads and shoulders ahead of Ivey on defense, doesn't mean he is good, or he shouldn't improve but you can't compare the 2 of them.

The fact that some people in this boards think Ivey is a better player than Cade is insane. I wonder if people watch the games or if they just listen to it while their attention is somewhere else.

FWIW, advanced stats are not the only thing that matter, but they can help us understand things. Ivey was benched because he is very bad on defense, unnaceptable bad, it's not because Monty is a morron or because he hate Ivey.

[Kalamazoo317]

Sasser, Bey, and Dennis Smith Jr. are all rated higher than Cade on that list. So maybe Sasser should be cutting into Cade's minutes?

No idea how they derrive those metrics, what time span they use, etc. I just know that Ivey is playing a lot better than he has been and though I would agree someone like Hayes was playing better than him at the start of the season, Ivey is playing better than Hayes now (and I believe coaching could well have to do with it).

I'm fully on the "Monty is not a moron and doesn't hate Ivey" bandwagon, fwiw.

Also fwiw, I didn't say in that post that Ivey is better than Cade. I said that Ivey responded well to benching and started playing better and Cade needs to start playing better too.

[Kalamazoo317]

Also, guess who's 25 spots higher on that list than Cade? Beefstew ....

[MortSahlfan]

Mike Curtis: #Pistons forward Bojan Bogdanovic is listed as probable to make his season debut tomorrow night against the #Cavs. Ausar Thompson (right facial fracture) is also designated as probable. Joe Harris (right shoulder sprain) remains out

If I was the coach going for next week (I'm sure Bojan will be on a minute restriction, gradual rise). I can't wait! I hope I can see Monte involved. I don't care about Harris, who wouldn't play anyway.

Killian-24/Sasser-20/Ivey-4
Cade-32/Ivey-16
Livers-22/Ausar-26
Bojan-28/Stew-10/Bagley-10
Duren-30/Stew-18

[Cowology]

Bogey is pretty terrible on defense too, but his offense is good enough that he's still a net positive. And we desperately need his offense.

[Kalamazoo317]

Bojan’s spacing and self-creation are sorely needed

[Mr Peanut]

Will be interesting to see if Bojan comes off the bench to ease back into it after a long injury lay-off, or if Monty puts him straight back into starting. He may replace Livers and we'll see:

Duren
Stew
Bojan
Cade
Killian

In an ideal world I think it would be:

Duren
Bojan
Ausar
Ivey
Cade

[Neptune]

Will be interesting to see if Bojan comes off the bench to ease back into it after a long injury lay-off, or if Monty puts him straight back into starting. He may replace Livers and we'll see:

Duren
Stew
Bojan
Cade
Killian

In an ideal world I think it would be:

Duren
Bojan
Ausar
Ivey
Cade

After the latest report regarding Monty, our front office and Ivey, hopefully your ideal lineup is what we see tomorrow and for the rest of the season.

[TPA]

My (probably unpopular) lineup:

Sasser-24/Cade-8/Killian-10/Ivey-6
Cade-26/Ivey-22
Bojan-26/Ausar-22
Bagley-24/Livers-16/Ausar-4/Stewart-4
Stewart-20/Duren-28

Start Sasser at PG. Cade is playing well off-ball. Ivey and Killian are fine for what they've been able to provide in the starting lineup, but tell me Sasser shouldn't get his chance to play with the starters to show us what he can do. He spaces the floor, shoots well from everywhere, plays passable defense, and handles/distributes the ball without turning it over like a sieve.

I like Bagley and want to see him get more minutes. Say what you want about his D, but he has impressed me on the offensive end. I feel like he has the best post-game of any player on the team. He's a tough start with Duren, but alongside Stewart he can provide a post presence while Stewart continues to float around the 3-line. His interior game on the offensive side, along with his rebounding, provides a good compliment to the players I have surrounding him.

Start Stewart over Duren. I believe he is most effective while playing as the lone C. His best games have been while Duren was out. I feel like there is a big drop-off in Stewart's production when playing alongside another dominant center like Duren, because, well, Stewart IS also a center... With Bagley as a second legit big in the lineup, that sort of makes up for Stewart being an undersized matchup on the defensive end. Most players on the roster have been humbled by Monty's lineup carousel, and I think Duren can take a turn coming off the bench (for another lineup experiment's sake). BTW, Duren still gets his minutes allotment and potentially sees an increase in production facing the opponent's second-string.

Ivey deserves more minutes. I don't care what folks say about his D. Players have strengths and weaknesses, and Ivey (when playing with confidence) is an excellent offensive weapon. It's up to the coach to utilize his roster to maximize the potential of each of his players. I feel like a bench of Ivey, Ausar, Livers, and Duren should be able to cover for what Ivey can't at the other end.

[LSV]

I really see that the 3 small alignment has worked, but it has not been used again.

HAYES-IVEY-CADE

Ivey should play alongside Cade, and Hayes (with the team we currently have, is not doing too badly).
With this we can play like greats.

BOJAN-DUREN

And 3 of these 5 must always be on the track.
The starting team works, and it is the substitute team that is not working.

Without injuries, we should play as a second unit.

MORRIS-SASSER-AUSAR-BAGLEY-STEWART.

But MORRIS is not there, the BURKS of the first games is missing, LIVERS or WISEMAN do not work, and they are losing themselves without an NBA team for the next season, and STEWART need to play at 5. Reduce the rotation to 8-9 players for now, and see if it works.

I understand that we have to make exchanges that do not condition our future, but we have to do something, some player that works for us in the second unit, I have no idea who it could be, but this team needs to win now, it needs to learn to win and not to be the losing team that we are right now, because the bigger the hole, the more difficult it will be to turn all this around.

It's been a very frustrating season, and right now there's no end in sight to the tunnel we've gotten ourselves into.

[MortSahlfan]

Monty is frustrating me... We have the entire team, but he's just... a full card monty (?)

Monte-22/Ivey-26
Cade-32/Sasser-16
Bojan-32/Burks-16
Ausar
Duren

Stew and Muscala can play together. Besides the defense, Muscala is a 40% 3pt shooter, as is Stew, but he's better in the paint. Good touch, and it takes 3 guys to box him out. We can't just win the way GS wins. We're not a half-court team, so we'll have to run, and need defense, and it's time to see how Ausar does with Monte in the line-up as opposed to Killian. Knox is usually invisible, but he's not horrible at anything, and will get the scrap minutes, but Stew is going to get a good amount of minutes, as will Duren, as long as he doesn't get into foul trouble.

[Uncle Mxy]

I posted this in frustration on a game thread, but with Monte back, the rotations should be:

Morris / Sasser
Ivey / Burks
Cunningham / Thompson
Bogdanovic / Stewart
Duren / Muscala

The "outside looking in"/situational minutes lineup is:

Hayes
Harris
Knox
Gallinari
Wiseman

And we have two-way players standing ready when we ship Harris and Hayes out at the trade deadline.

[MortSahlfan]

Morris, Ivey, and Cade are way too ball dominant.. It would be nice to have one lead the 2nd unit.

[vege]

Morris, Ivey, and Cade are way too ball dominant.. It would be nice to have one lead the 2nd unit.

We would be a good team with Ivey and Stewart on the 2nd unit with Morris/Cade/Ausar/Bojan/Duren starting and Burks and Muscala playing with Stewart and Ivey on the 2nd unit.

[MortSahlfan]

Morris, Ivey, and Cade are way too ball dominant.. It would be nice to have one lead the 2nd unit.

We would be a good team with Ivey and Stewart on the 2nd unit with Morris/Cade/Ausar/Bojan/Duren starting and Burks and Muscala playing with Stewart and Ivey on the 2nd unit.

During the post-game, Monty was asked a question that must have forced him to mention tweaking the line-ups.