I hate it, but Weaver absolutely has to be fired.

[flow]

Killian was not THE GUY at 7. There was always a question. Always a debate. The debate was between Killian & Haliburton.

Here's a pre-draft article from Keith Langlois:

https://pistonpowered.com/2021/11/15/detroit-pistons-killian-hayes-tyrese-haliburton/

As for Hayes being consensus. Not at all.

SI had Haliburton #4 overall and Hayes #5. https://www.si.com/nba/2020/11/09/nba-draft-big-board-top-80-rankings

ESPN had Haliburton #2 overall and Hayes #9. https://www.espn.com/basketball/story/_/id/30302076/ranking-top-30-nba-prospects

If you need more, let me know.


I also came across an interesting post on reddit from the day after the 2020 draft. It was authored by MortSahlfan. Hope he doesn't mind, but I'd like to share it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DetroitPistons/comments/jx3plr/why_didnt_we_pick_tyrese_halliburton/

I've been listening and reading all the draft experts, watching film, and I keep hearing about Hayes can't shoot, has no explosiveness, can't use his right hand, and is a project. How long do we have to wait? We haven't won a playoff game in a LONG time, over a decade.

Tyrese is a great shooter, passer, defender, and by all accounts, a great guy off the court.

Hayes played in France, and many of the lottery picks from Europe do not just become great like Luka. Tyrese played in the NCAA and excelled. I'd also add how it's difficult for some guys' to adjust to the "American way of life" - especially with COVID, where one isn't able to get around.

Please sell me on Hayes. Tell me why we passed up on Halliburton.



Whichever draft experts Mortsahlfan was listening to definitely had Haliburton over Hayes, and they were right on the money as to all of Hayes' flaws. Talk about profits. They had poor Mort bewildered that we took him over Haliburton.

So no, there was no consensus. Some liked Haliburton. Some liked Hayes. The ones who liked Haliburton were right. The ones who liked Hayes were wrong. Including Weaver. Who was paid millions to get it right.

.

[zeebneeb]

Today I learned, some folks don't know what consensus means.

This day and age, I get it. Oh well. Revisionist history is all the rage these days with the kids.

[flow]

Today I learned, some folks don't know what consensus means.

This day and age, I get it. Oh well. Revisionist history is all the rage these days with the kids.

Umm, perhaps you're learning that you don't know what consensus means.

Consensus: An agreement in unanimity or in solidarity among the vast majority.

Example: Cade Cunningham was the consensus #1 pick in 2021.


There was no consensus in this case.

.

[MortSahlfan]

Hi and thanks... All I did was watch clips of him on YouTube and thought, "This is our guy" and Killian Hayes never entered my mind. I just thought out of all the problems some foreigner players experience, and after Darko, didn't wanna take a chance on a lottery pick.

On Pistons.com forum, anti-Haliburton would constantly say, "High floor, low ceiling".. Yeah..

[DBC10]

The biggest thing for me with Hayes was the fact that he played in the German league and didn't really stand out despite it being less than the G-League in terms of talent. That to me was the biggest red flag besides his lack of shooting and scoring abilities

Playing in Germany really allowed him to have a fog around him that ultimately let him be picked at where he was

[DET_Athletics]

To me weaver has done three things wrong and more right than that.

1. Not taking Tyrese Haliburton- I don't hold that against him as much as other because he barely had six months on the Job before the draft started.

2. Trading Bey for Wiseman- I remember how there were talks that Bey wanted a Max contract and was clashing with the coach at the time about his play on defense.

3. None of his trades have worked out, except the Bojan trade. Bagley is a traffic cone, Wiseman is Bagley 2.0 with a little bit better wingspan. Morris hasn't seen the court all year, Burk's has been highly streaky.

At the end of the day, I feel like weaver has done a Ok job, not a great as he could have done but ok. Everyone wants to point to the Magic and OKC and asking why we can have the same success but also fail to realize that they had good veterans in place before they started their rebuild and tanking. Weaver wiped the slate clean and did both at the same time. Not to mention that Monty, who our owner wanted, has ripped the bandaid off with these young players (which I don't disagree with) and told them to fight and earn their minutes. Iron shapens Iron and things are going to look ugly before they get better. In today's NBA you want to suck to get high draft picks, but is their a real difference between not making the playoffs and the worse team in the league??? Y'all both watching the games at home?

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[Canadafan]

^^^^ya it sounds like he was somewhat forced to do the Bey trade. Something was going on behind the scenes. And it sucks we didn't draft Hali, but 4 or 5 other teams after us messed that up as well so I can't be too mad about it. The draft is a big crapshoot. Looks at the Joker. Look at Maxey. Kawhi and on and on. Lots of luck involved with the draft.
It's unfortunate Morris is hurt because I believe he could have really helped to not make us look like such a trainwreck. Him and Bojan being hurt really messed us up. I know they're not superstars but they could have really helped us.
Monty has made us look so much worse with his rotations as well

[zeebneeb]

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/who-is-the-worst-team-in-the-nba-ranking-the-pistons-spurs-and-wizards-amid-lengthy-losing-streaks/


Good read if anyone is still interested.

It breaks down what we've all been saying.

[DBC10]

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/who-is-the-worst-team-in-the-nba-ranking-the-pistons-spurs-and-wizards-amid-lengthy-losing-streaks/


Good read if anyone is still interested.

It breaks down what we've all been saying.

The Sochan experiment has drawn far more publicity, but Detroit's continued insistence on starting Killian Hayes is far more puzzling. Sochan is at least a promising player in other regards. He'll be a part of San Antonio's future, even if it's at another position. But Hayes is not only blocking more promising young guards like Jaden Ivey and Marcus Sasser. Rather, he's doing it without being a positive-impact in really any regard. He's making only 31% of his 3-pointers, which is amazingly a career-high. He's a below-average playmaker for his position and hardly a notable rebounder. There have been defensive flashes, but the metrics are split on whether or not he's even a positive there. The defense is bad whether he plays or not, and with Ausar Thompson popping as one of the best defensive rookies in recent history, it's just not clear what Hayes brings to the table that other players on this roster don't.

These quotes stood out to me and the malpractice of running both our offense ans defense this way

Cunningham can barely shoot, and neither can Ivey. Meanwhile, Hayes and Thompson can't shoot at all. Putting all four of them on the same team was probably a mistake, though putting them in two-big lineups is a bigger one. But those are mistakes that can be resolved later. 

For now, the goal should be to separate their minutes as much as possible and surround them with reasonable amounts of shooting. That's how they can actually showcase their skill sets under typical NBA circumstances and potentially begin to grow. The Pistons are doing a massive disservice to their young players by crowding them like this. They can't help that their skill sets are redundant. Rather, it's the team's job to put them in positions to succeed. The Pistons aren't remotely doing that right now, and it's not as though they're justifying their nonsensical decisions by winning, either. There's just nothing positive to take out of what's happening here.

People forget Jaden had a promising freshman year. There were more than enough flashes of him running the offense and scoring enough in this league to get by without relying on elite defense. Same with Sasser this year and now he's banished from getting solid minutes along with Ausar being brought up even more slowly after a good start. The overreliance on trying to make Stew & Duren work to start is flashing back to Smith/Monroe/Drummond which we all know how horrid that was

It's malpractice simply put

[vic]

The basketball malpractice this season is definitely on Monty, which is on Gores who overrode Weaver to give Monty an offer he couldn't refuse.

The only reason I'm mad at Weaver is not trading for another pick to get Cam Whitmore.

You can move the World to get Saddiq and Stew. You can move the world to get Duren.
You can move the world to get Sasser.

But you can't do anything to get a 2-way wing that is a play finisher who gets steals and 3s and fits on your squad like like a hand in a glove?

But you can stay stacking your team with non-shooters and weak centers?

I'm not trying to necessarily fire Weaver, but I definitely lost respect for His Bball IQ with is 2022 moves.

[ComboGuardCity]

2020 was an absolute bust, but I think Weaver hit on both 2021 and 2022. Cade is still the best player in his class and I think Ivey is going to be a lot like DeAron Fox. I also think 2023 was the smart pick in Ausar.

Where Weaver has failed is actually overpaying on reclamation projects (Wiseman and Bagley) and holding on to his favorites for too long. Trading for Wiseman made no sense. Those four seconds were valuable trade chips and he spent them on James.

He’s also failed at signing complementary player this Roster.

We needed a veteran pacing PG and maybe that was Monte, but you don’t go after a guy who his clearly out for a while. We needed a 3 and D big wing and instead we went with an old and slow Joe Harris.

Our lineup should be:

Cade/Backup PG
Ivey/Cade
Bojan/Cade/Ausar
3&D/Ausar
Duren/Stewart

That’s balance. You could argue he tried to do exactly that with the combination of guys that we have but a sagged off Stewart is not 3&D and Monte isn’t even healthy.



Our lineup

[Snakebites]

Cade is most definitely not the best player in his draft class…

Not even close.

Mobley, Barnes, Williams, Sengun have all been comfortably better. And that’s just off the top of my head.

The reclamation projects have been a disaster, but so as the roster construction as a whole. Even if I agreed that Ivey would be like Fox (I don’t), Fox would be a terrible fit with whatever the best hypothetical versions of Cade and Ausar are.

And that’s without factoring in the abject failure that has been player development.

[ComboGuardCity]

Cade is most definitely not the best player in his draft class…

Not even close.

Mobley, Barnes, Williams, Sengun have all been comfortably better. And that’s just off the top of my head.

The reclamation projects have been a disaster, but so as the roster construction as a whole. Even if I agreed that Ivey would be like Fox (I don’t), Fox would be a terrible fit with whatever the best hypothetical versions of Cade and Ausar are.

And that’s without factoring in the abject failure that has been player development.

“Not even close” based on what? All of those guys have players better than them on their team. There is a reason GMs were highest on Cade of the bunch during preseason and there is a reason Cade shined in FIBA workouts. Maybe there is a debate but not even close is hyperbolic.

[Spider156]

Just fire Weaver

Fire Tellem

Sell the team

Problem solved. We have tons of young players, I don’t care if they stay to be honest. I just want talent at this point. I’d start with Stewart Killian Wiseman and dump them immediately for any PF like John Collins. You start there and you can actually sit on your hands after that. Just address the Stewart Killian Wiseman problem. Once we get rid of the 2020 draft we can move forward in my opinion. Weaver’s solution is with guys like Kuzma, Collins, guys that need to be paid like Bey or guys that got paid like Keldon Johnson. There’s a lot more fixes to the team than people think. The problem of course is Weaver is spineless.

[Spider156]

2020 was an absolute bust, but I think Weaver hit on both 2021 and 2022. Cade is still the best player in his class and I think Ivey is going to be a lot like DeAron Fox. I also think 2023 was the smart pick in Ausar.

Where Weaver has failed is actually overpaying on reclamation projects (Wiseman and Bagley) and holding on to his favorites for too long. Trading for Wiseman made no sense. Those four seconds were valuable trade chips and he spent them on James.

He’s also failed at signing complementary player this Roster.

We needed a veteran pacing PG and maybe that was Monte, but you don’t go after a guy who his clearly out for a while. We needed a 3 and D big wing and instead we went with an old and slow Joe Harris.

Our lineup should be:

Cade/Backup PG
Ivey/Cade
Bojan/Cade/Ausar
3&D/Ausar
Duren/Stewart

That’s balance. You could argue he tried to do exactly that with the combination of guys that we have but a sagged off Stewart is not 3&D and Monte isn’t even healthy.



Our lineup

You’re on point here. I don’t think it’s hard to fix the team. We needed a guy like Grant Williams in the summer but instead he got fleeced an hour before FA started for Harris. That move in my opinion is what made the whole season fail. Then he doubled up on his failure and got Morris. Kicking the can down the road and keeping a flexible cap space killed Weaver’s career.

It’s not that hard to fix the team. The loser Weaver just needs to get rid of the 2020 draft completely.

[Spider156]

Cade is most definitely not the best player in his draft class…

Not even close.

Mobley, Barnes, Williams, Sengun have all been comfortably better. And that’s just off the top of my head.

The reclamation projects have been a disaster, but so as the roster construction as a whole. Even if I agreed that Ivey would be like Fox (I don’t), Fox would be a terrible fit with whatever the best hypothetical versions of Cade and Ausar are.

And that’s without factoring in the abject failure that has been player development.

Cade is gonna have a full 20 year career like Chris Paul if he stays healthy. You don’t compare Chris Paul to guys in his draft, that’s a shame. These guys run multiple offenses in their careers and you can’t say that’s not the best in the draft. You can have your opinion but anyone that runs an offense deserves a max contract. You wanna compare max contracts you’ll have to see them finish out the contracts because players get paid for potential not production. All the Cade comments isn’t worth making. Get the guy help!

[mattao313]

Cade is most definitely not the best player in his draft class…

Not even close.

Mobley, Barnes, Williams, Sengun have all been comfortably better. And that’s just off the top of my head.

The reclamation projects have been a disaster, but so as the roster construction as a whole. Even if I agreed that Ivey would be like Fox (I don’t), Fox would be a terrible fit with whatever the best hypothetical versions of Cade and Ausar are.

And that’s without factoring in the abject failure that has been player development.

Cade is gonna have a full 20 year career like Chris Paul if he stays healthy. You don’t compare Chris Paul to guys in his draft, that’s a shame. These guys run multiple offenses in their careers and you can’t say that’s not the best in the draft. You can have your opinion but anyone that runs an offense deserves a max contract. You wanna compare max contracts you’ll have to see them finish out the contracts because players get paid for potential not production. All the Cade comments isn’t worth making. Get the guy help!

Cade is no where close to Chris Paul.

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[Snakebites]

Cade is most definitely not the best player in his draft class…

Not even close.

Mobley, Barnes, Williams, Sengun have all been comfortably better. And that’s just off the top of my head.

The reclamation projects have been a disaster, but so as the roster construction as a whole. Even if I agreed that Ivey would be like Fox (I don’t), Fox would be a terrible fit with whatever the best hypothetical versions of Cade and Ausar are.

And that’s without factoring in the abject failure that has been player development.

“Not even close” based on what? All of those guys have players better than them on their team. There is a reason GMs were highest on Cade of the bunch during preseason and there is a reason Cade shined in FIBA workouts. Maybe there is a debate but not even close is hyperbolic.

Results. Not excuses. That’s what you need to make the big claim that Cade is the best in his draft class.

[Snakebites]

Cade is most definitely not the best player in his draft class…

Not even close.

Mobley, Barnes, Williams, Sengun have all been comfortably better. And that’s just off the top of my head.

The reclamation projects have been a disaster, but so as the roster construction as a whole. Even if I agreed that Ivey would be like Fox (I don’t), Fox would be a terrible fit with whatever the best hypothetical versions of Cade and Ausar are.

And that’s without factoring in the abject failure that has been player development.

Cade is gonna have a full 20 year career like Chris Paul if he stays healthy. You don’t compare Chris Paul to guys in his draft, that’s a shame. These guys run multiple offenses in their careers and you can’t say that’s not the best in the draft. You can have your opinion but anyone that runs an offense deserves a max contract. You wanna compare max contracts you’ll have to see them finish out the contracts because players get paid for potential not production. All the Cade comments isn’t worth making. Get the guy help!

It’s interesting you mention Chris Paul. He was drafted by an 18 win team. Yes- a WORSE team than Cade was drafted by. Had the greatest rookie season for a point guard since Magic, they improved by 20 games. By year three he had one of the best point guard seasons in history.

THAT’S what a franchise changing player looks like. This isn’t it.

If you think Cade has earned a max contract based on this performance…well, I just don’t know what to say. He may be running our offense, but he has not proven he’s a guy who should be.

[Sheeeeed]

When you're 2-22, everyone should be expendable. I think Cade has finally reached that Rodney Stuckey tier of excuses around here.