Can Ausar and Duren play together in today’s NBA?

[bstein14]

Didn't want to make its own thread for this, but saw this interesting graphic. This surprised me a bit because these two have played a lot of minutes together this season with a bunch of non shooters. Stew went down shortly after Bojan came back. They have the potential to climb up this list even further with better shooters around them.

[bstein14]

[Kalamazoo317]

If he can't hit a 3, no. Having one guy who can't hit a three is fine, but any more than that and it makes life much more difficult for Cade.

The season isn't about boosting Cade's stats and going 6-76 in the process, it's about developing the core players. If Cade is the franchise player we want him to be, he will make it work with 2 good rim-runners along with Ivey and Bojan next to him as Ausar develops his shot. There's a HUGE difference between that horrible lineup Monty started the season with that had Killian, Ausar, Stew, and Duren and a lineup with Ivey, Bojan, Ausar, and Duren which has seen the floor for a total of 4 minutes this season.

People seem to associate playing Ausar at all with those death lineups that lacked our #2 and 3 best scorers and also featured Killian Hayes. We've not actually seen the core guys play with Bojan because Monty is trash.

If Cade is the franchise player we want him to be then this season *is* about developing him first and foremost.

[BDM22]

If he can't hit a 3, no. Having one guy who can't hit a three is fine, but any more than that and it makes life much more difficult for Cade.

The season isn't about boosting Cade's stats and going 6-76 in the process, it's about developing the core players. If Cade is the franchise player we want him to be, he will make it work with 2 good rim-runners along with Ivey and Bojan next to him as Ausar develops his shot. There's a HUGE difference between that horrible lineup Monty started the season with that had Killian, Ausar, Stew, and Duren and a lineup with Ivey, Bojan, Ausar, and Duren which has seen the floor for a total of 4 minutes this season.

People seem to associate playing Ausar at all with those death lineups that lacked our #2 and 3 best scorers and also featured Killian Hayes. We've not actually seen the core guys play with Bojan because Monty is trash.

If Cade is the franchise player we want him to be then this season *is* about developing him first and foremost.

He can't develop unless he only plays with shooters? How is that? We need all of these guys to develop in order for this team to do anything. This year has shown that Cade can be a franchise player and this team can still be 3-33. He needs those other players to even dream of becoming a playoff team. It's not a 1-man show.

And I think Cade has a better shot at developing while playing with Ivey, Ausar, Bojan, and Duren than Ausar has by barely playing at all.

[Invictus88]

He can't develop unless he only plays with shooters? How is that? .

The general point of this sentiment is that opposing teams double and triple Cade at the point of attack because he doesn't have options to pass to that will make the defense pay.

It's been stated over and over in other threads. Watching games you see literally every team doing it.

I think everyone can agree that Cade would have an easier time if he had better shooters around him. Given that he is often facilitating the offense I think it's pretty easy to infer that the entire offense would flow better in these cases if better shooting existed.

Now, maybe you can try to debate and say none of that has anything to do with whether or not Cade can develop. But if you are trying to develop new skills it probably helps not having to deal with 2 or 3 sets of hands every time instead of one...

This is the last post I'll be making in discussions like these. It's clear that there are biases that will not be overcome regardless of what is stated.

[BDM22]

He can't develop unless he only plays with shooters? How is that? .

The general point of this sentiment is that opposing teams double and triple Cade at the point of attack because he doesn't have options to pass to that will make the defense pay.

It's been stated over and over in other threads. Watching games you see literally every team doing it.

I think everyone can agree that Cade would have an easier time if he had better shooters around him. Given that he is often facilitating the offense I think it's pretty easy to infer that the entire offense would flow better in these cases if better shooting existed.

Now, maybe you can try to debate and say none of that has anything to do with whether or not Cade can develop. But if you are trying to develop new skills it probably helps not having to deal with 2 or 3 sets of hands every time instead of one...

This is the last post I'll be making in discussions like these. It's clear that there are biases that will not be overcome regardless of what is stated.

Yeah, again I think this comes down to conflating playing Ausar and Duren with Cade, Ivey, and Bojan as being the same as when Monty had the offensive abomination of Cade, Killian, Ausar, Stewart, and Duren starting and teams could just blitz Cade every time because literally no one else could make a play on offense. Swapping in Bojan and Ivey for Killian and Stewart changes that massively. I don't think they are remotely the same thing, and I know that no one on here has really seen how it looks because the core + Bojan lineup has only played 4 minutes together in total.

I also don't think teams really respect Kevin Knox or Livers as shooters. They get the same treatment Stew gets in that teams will live with them getting open shots. Knox is open a lot for a reason.

And I'll say this again, Donovan Mitchell has had his 2 best offensive seasons since he went to Cleveland and plays alongside Mobley and Jarrett Allen, who are both non-shooters.

Certainly playing Ausar instead of Livers or whatever is not going to negatively impact our record, so it really seems to be only about boosting Cade's scoring numbers as much as possible at the cost of developing the young players on this team, which will be absolutely necessary for this team to be good.

We've seen Cade averaging 30/6/8 or whatever for weeks and the team still can't win, so I would think people would realize that these other guys getting experience and having a chance to improve is pretty important.

[FloridaMan78]

He can't develop unless he only plays with shooters? How is that? .

The general point of this sentiment is that opposing teams double and triple Cade at the point of attack because he doesn't have options to pass to that will make the defense pay.

It's been stated over and over in other threads. Watching games you see literally every team doing it.

I think everyone can agree that Cade would have an easier time if he had better shooters around him. Given that he is often facilitating the offense I think it's pretty easy to infer that the entire offense would flow better in these cases if better shooting existed.

Now, maybe you can try to debate and say none of that has anything to do with whether or not Cade can develop. But if you are trying to develop new skills it probably helps not having to deal with 2 or 3 sets of hands every time instead of one...

This is the last post I'll be making in discussions like these. It's clear that there are biases that will not be overcome regardless of what is stated.

Yeah, again I think this comes down to conflating playing Ausar and Duren with Cade, Ivey, and Bojan as being the same as when Monty had the offensive abomination of Cade, Killian, Ausar, Stewart, and Duren starting and teams could just blitz Cade every time because literally no one else could make a play on offense. Swapping in Bojan and Ivey for Killian and Stewart changes that massively. I don't think they are remotely the same thing, and I know that no one on here has really seen how it looks because the core + Bojan lineup has only played 4 minutes together in total.

I also don't think teams really respect Kevin Knox or Livers as shooters. They get the same treatment Stew gets in that teams will live with them getting open shots. Knox is open a lot for a reason.

And I'll say this again, Donovan Mitchell has had his 2 best offensive seasons since he went to Cleveland and plays alongside Mobley and Jarrett Allen, who are both non-shooters.

Certainly playing Ausar instead of Livers or whatever is not going to negatively impact our record, so it really seems to be only about boosting Cade's scoring numbers as much as possible at the cost of developing the young players on this team, which will be absolutely necessary for this team to be good.

We've seen Cade averaging 30/6/8 or whatever for weeks and the team still can't win, so I would think people would realize that these other guys getting experience and having a chance to improve is pretty important.

It’s not just about Cade. A packed paint means less room for Duren. It means Ivey not being able to drive. I mean yea give it a shot with Cade/Ivey/Bojan/Ausar/Duren. But if you see that extra guy in the paint you know why.

[Crymson]

He can't develop unless he only plays with shooters? How is that? We need all of these guys to develop in order for this team to do anything. This year has shown that Cade can be a franchise player and this team can still be 3-33. He needs those other players to even dream of becoming a playoff team. It's not a 1-man show.

When a front office drafts its franchise player, it typically at least gives the roster the basic accoutrements to run a functional offense (most notably shooting, and a decent PnR center or two if it's a handler). This particular front office is crewed by morons who not only failed to do that but deliberately went in the opposite direction from 2021 draft day onward. It's Cade's third season and he has nothing even remotely resembling a functional team around him.

Yes, it IS important for prospects to be brought up in the sort of functional system they'll ultimately need to play in should the team be wanting to succeed in anything. The fact that the front office has utterly neglected do so isn't because it's not important, but rather because the front office is incompetent and endlessly prioritized adding project players while neglecting any substantive focus on gathering the essentials.

And I think Cade has a better shot at developing while playing with Ivey, Ausar, Bojan, and Duren than Ausar has by barely playing at all.

Ausar was completely unready for NBA halfcourt offense (see the aforementioned disdain for fielding a functional NBA roster) and should never have been lined up for big minutes. Just like with Killian, he was lined up for significant minutes anyway and, thanks to the addition of an incompetent coach, even ended up starting.

He's a monumental liability in the halfcourt, even when used in the most favorable way for him (which isn't much and isn't happening anyway, because Monty Williams can't be bothered), and the team has been at its worst by far on offense with him on the floor.

[BDM22]

He can't develop unless he only plays with shooters? How is that? We need all of these guys to develop in order for this team to do anything. This year has shown that Cade can be a franchise player and this team can still be 3-33. He needs those other players to even dream of becoming a playoff team. It's not a 1-man show.

When a front office drafts its franchise player, it typically at least gives the roster the basic accoutrements to run a functional offense (most notably shooting, and a decent PnR center or two if it's a handler). This particular front office is crewed by morons who not only failed to do that but deliberately went in the opposite direction from 2021 draft day onward. It's Cade's third season and he has nothing even remotely resembling a functional team around him.

Yes, it IS important for prospects to be brought up in the sort of functional system they'll ultimately need to play in should the team be wanting to succeed in anything. The fact that the front office has utterly neglected do so isn't because it's not important, but rather because the front office is incompetent and endlessly prioritized adding project players while neglecting any substantive focus on gathering the essentials.

And I think Cade has a better shot at developing while playing with Ivey, Ausar, Bojan, and Duren than Ausar has by barely playing at all.

Ausar was completely unready for NBA halfcourt offense (see the aforementioned disdain for fielding a functional NBA roster) and should never have been lined up for big minutes. Just like with Killian, he was lined up for significant minutes anyway and, thanks to the addition of an incompetent coach, even ended up starting.

He's a monumental liability in the halfcourt, even when used in the most favorable way for him (which isn't much and isn't happening anyway, because Monty Williams can't be bothered), and the team has been at its worst by far on offense with him on the floor.

And so why is it better to play Ausar with Killian and Wiseman or Bagley on the bench? How does that work out for them?

Again 3-33. It does not matter if Ausar makes the offense worse. I would say very marginally since Livers is the current starter and he's the least efficient scorer in the league, and Ausar would make the defense better. The fact that Ausar plays half of his minutes with Killian and another non-shooting big is malpractice FAR beyond playing Cade with Ivey, Bojan, Ausar, and Duren would be.

If we had some great 3/4 scorer next to Bojan it would obviously be different, but we're playing Livers right now and we're 3-33! Still more wins with Ausar playing big minutes (and that was with Killian and no Bojan!) as a starter than in this new role as a garbage time guy. Teams this bad simply do not bury #5 picks in their rotations, even if he was currently the worst player in the NBA (he's not).

Duren needs 32-34 minutes per game and Ausar needs 25-30 minutes. That means there is going to be overlap. Cade will have to make it work without 4 Bojan's on the floor next to him somehow.

[Crymson]

And so why is it better to play Ausar with Killian and Wiseman or Bagley on the bench? How does that work out for them?

Killian is irrelevant, and Wiseman and Bagley aren't that much less so. They're all drastically less important than the rest of the youth, Ausar included.

Again 3-33. It does not matter if Ausar makes the offense worse. I would say very marginally since Livers is the current starter and he's the least efficient scorer in the league, and Ausar would make the defense better. The fact that Ausar plays half of his minutes with Killian and another non-shooting big is malpractice FAR beyond playing Cade with Ivey, Bojan, Ausar, and Duren would be.

Playing Cade, Ivey, and Duren within something even remotely resembling a functional NBA offense remains important regardless of if the Pistons are losing, and Ausar does not suit that.

Ausar wasn't ready for NBA minutes in the first place. I'd have sent him to the G-League already if I were in charge. That's how bad his halfcourt offense is. He isn't going to get the miles to work on that in the NBA.

If we had some great 3/4 scorer next to Bojan it would obviously be different, but we're playing Livers right now and we're 3-33!

I agree that Livers is unequivocally ****. The fact that he's starting despite being arguably the worst rotation player in the NBA is barely a quarter-step above outright madness, and it would be shocking if it weren't such a characteristically moronic decision from an extremely highly-paid coach who has been astoundingly terrible at his job. But Livers being arguably the worst of all possible options doesn't change the fact that Ausar is still a bad option. Neither of them should be getting those minutes.

Still more wins with Ausar playing big minutes (and that was with Killian and no Bojan!) as a starter than in this new role as a garbage time guy.

That starting lineup lost its minutes on a regular basis, and the Hornets and the Bulls were complete messes when the Pistons played them (the Hornets remain so).

Teams this bad simply do not bury #5 picks in their rotations, even if he was currently the worst player in the NBA (he's not).

What do you expect can be done with Ausar on offense? Granted, Monty is doing jack **** to coach him -- that's a problem, and inexcusable laziness -- but even with a good coach, there's only so much that can be done in the halfcourt with a player who not only absolutely cannot shoot but is bad at every other modus of scoring in the halfcourt as well.

Ausar definitely isn't the worst player in the NBA -- not by a long shot -- but he is one of the worst halfcourt scorers in the NBA.

[mattao313]

I think they can play together but we need a 4 man that can score and shoot and not be a turnstile on defense

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[Kalamazoo317]

We need all of these guys to develop in order for this team to do anything

I fundamentally disagree. In fact, I think it’s borderline impossible to successfully develop all of our young players. At a certain point we need to pick and choose, prioritize those that appear to have the best potential and highest likelihood of hitting that potential and move the others for better fits.

[BDM22]

We need all of these guys to develop in order for this team to do anything

I fundamentally disagree. In fact, I think it’s borderline impossible to successfully develop all of our young players. At a certain point we need to pick and choose, prioritize those that appear to have the best potential and highest likelihood of hitting that potential and move the others for better fits.

Our best players aren't good enough for that.

If you get a Wemby or a Giannis, sure, you have more leeway. We don't have that. We need to maximize the talent of all of the guys we have. Drafting guys and then selling low after you've buried them on the bench of the worst team in NBA history is no way to build a team.

If you want a guy like Ausar to have any value in a trade at all you've got to play him. It's that simple. We don't get big free agents. We aren't going to have some team hand us a star player in a trade for guys we've left to rot on the bench.

[Uncle Mxy]

Read on Twitter

[Mr Peanut]

Read on Twitter

I get that these are advanced stats and they're bit difficult to dispute, but I feel like watching the games he's looked worse defensively this season, and especially his PnR defense. There's been countless games this season where we've given up 120-130 points with a good chunk of those in the paint, and Duren has been the guy patrolling the paint for almost two thirds of the game.

[Uncle Mxy]

I don't know enough about the advanced LEBRON statistic, but thought it was surprising as well. Certainly, it seems like opposing Cs are getting theirs and then some.

[Kalamazoo317]

I don’t think we can develop half a dozen guys at the same time. And trying to stunts all their development.

[DetroitDon15]

I ageee that I like his D. The problem is with the lineup Detroit has that the 3 needs to be able to shoot threes.

To be fair, that's true for 99% of forwards on 99% of teams. Only wings who are truly special elsewhere can survive without a credible outside shot these days. It's one reason I've been pushing "3 and D" mentality when looking at draft prospects. If you can't space, I'm not sure you can stay on the court.

I agree with you. That’s why I don’t want the Pistons to take Stanley Johnson 2.0 in Ron Holland. I’m super scared that Weaver will love the “upside”.

[whitehops]

Read on Twitter

I get that these are advanced stats and they're bit difficult to dispute, but I feel like watching the games he's looked worse defensively this season, and especially his PnR defense. There's been countless games this season where we've given up 120-130 points with a good chunk of those in the paint, and Duren has been the guy patrolling the paint for almost two thirds of the game.

i don't know the exact formula for LEBRON but i know that on-off splits are a factor so having wiseman and bagley - literally two of the worst defensive centers in the league - behind him probably inflates his score a bit.

he's being asked to defend in space probably more than he should at this point in his development but he is definitely showing some "drummond" signs as a defender. the most obvious one for me is a player will attempt a shot in the deep paint and he won't even put a hand up to contest.

[Canadafan]

He can't develop unless he only plays with shooters? How is that? .

The general point of this sentiment is that opposing teams double and triple Cade at the point of attack because he doesn't have options to pass to that will make the defense pay.

It's been stated over and over in other threads. Watching games you see literally every team doing it.

I think everyone can agree that Cade would have an easier time if he had better shooters around him. Given that he is often facilitating the offense I think it's pretty easy to infer that the entire offense would flow better in these cases if better shooting existed.

Now, maybe you can try to debate and say none of that has anything to do with whether or not Cade can develop. But if you are trying to develop new skills it probably helps not having to deal with 2 or 3 sets of hands every time instead of one...

This is the last post I'll be making in discussions like these. It's clear that there are biases that will not be overcome regardless of what is stated.

I get what BDM22 means though.
Start of season we had Killian Ausur and Stew starting. Horrible spacing. Along with Duren.
Replace Stew with Bojan=big improvement in spacing and having a secondary playmaker.
Replace Killa with Ivey and have a big improvement in having a better shooter and secondary playmaker.
Ausur can then be one of 2starters that can't shoot instead of one of 4starters that can't shoot or playmake.
I understand what you're saying to though because perfect world instead of Ausur we would have a guy like OG. Then we'd be cookin