I think he's a good coach, and just hasn't had the bench like this year. That's why the starters logged heavy minutes.
Yeah, he isn't a Hall of Famer ala Larry Brown, but I think he's still one of the better coaches in the league.
I think we rag on Flip Saunders too much.
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I think we rag on Flip Saunders too much.
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HeroicKennedy
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Cowology
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The starters minutes are down due to the inordinate amount of blowouts. Last nights game is a perfect example; in the 3rd quarter we saw our lead go from 13 all the way down to 2 or 3 and yet he left the starters in the entire 3rd quarter. This despite the bench having played well earlier in the game. It's because his natural inclination is still to ride the starters anytime we have a competitive game. Instead of thinking "Hmm...the starters look flat, let's mix it up and get some energy off the bench" his thought process is "Oh crap, we're suddenly in a close game - I can't take the starters out now!". He still has little trust in the bench.
And as a result the starters all logged 35-40 minutes despite knowing we had a back to back and despite the fact the bench played very well. (Stuckey & Maxiell were 2nd & 3rd in +/- for the game behind only Rip).
And we've seen regular season success out of this team before. That is NOT how you measure this team. We're measured by what we do in the post-season and each of the past 2 years we've imploded and lost to inferior teams.
What we saw last year is that Flip came up w/ some really good game plans going into series and it allowed us to jump out to some early series leads. But what we also saw was that he was excruciatingly slow in making adjustments both in game and out.
Our best chance to win any series is to finish it quickly. The longer it goes the worse our chances become. What we have to hope is that our superior talent, depth and hunger will allow us to overcome a level of ineptitude from our coach.
One thing that bodes well for us is we're playing the hungriest we've played since '04. I'm sure that's in no small part due to the energy we've gotten off the bench, but the starters also look a lot hungrier. Even in '06 when we got off to that hot start it was because we were out-executing people early in the season, not because we were out working them. This year we're doing both. The hustle is back and that gives us a fighting chance.
And as a result the starters all logged 35-40 minutes despite knowing we had a back to back and despite the fact the bench played very well. (Stuckey & Maxiell were 2nd & 3rd in +/- for the game behind only Rip).
And we've seen regular season success out of this team before. That is NOT how you measure this team. We're measured by what we do in the post-season and each of the past 2 years we've imploded and lost to inferior teams.
What we saw last year is that Flip came up w/ some really good game plans going into series and it allowed us to jump out to some early series leads. But what we also saw was that he was excruciatingly slow in making adjustments both in game and out.
Our best chance to win any series is to finish it quickly. The longer it goes the worse our chances become. What we have to hope is that our superior talent, depth and hunger will allow us to overcome a level of ineptitude from our coach.
One thing that bodes well for us is we're playing the hungriest we've played since '04. I'm sure that's in no small part due to the energy we've gotten off the bench, but the starters also look a lot hungrier. Even in '06 when we got off to that hot start it was because we were out-executing people early in the season, not because we were out working them. This year we're doing both. The hustle is back and that gives us a fighting chance.
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Snakebites
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Cowology wrote:The starters minutes are down due to the inordinate amount of blowouts. Last nights game is a perfect example; in the 3rd quarter we saw our lead go from 13 all the way down to 2 or 3 and yet he left the starters in the entire 3rd quarter. This despite the bench having played well earlier in the game. It's because his natural inclination is still to ride the starters anytime we have a competitive game. Instead of thinking "Hmm...the starters look flat, let's mix it up and get some energy off the bench" his thought process is "Oh crap, we're suddenly in a close game - I can't take the starters out now!". He still has little trust in the bench.
And as a result the starters all logged 35-40 minutes despite knowing we had a back to back and despite the fact the bench played very well. (Stuckey & Maxiell were 2nd & 3rd in +/- for the game behind only Rip).
And we've seen regular season success out of this team before. That is NOT how you measure this team. We're measured by what we do in the post-season and each of the past 2 years we've imploded and lost to inferior teams.
What we saw last year is that Flip came up w/ some really good game plans going into series and it allowed us to jump out to some early series leads. But what we also saw was that he was excruciatingly slow in making adjustments both in game and out.
Our best chance to win any series is to finish it quickly. The longer it goes the worse our chances become. What we have to hope is that our superior talent, depth and hunger will allow us to overcome a level of ineptitude from our coach.
One thing that bodes well for us is we're playing the hungriest we've played since '04. I'm sure that's in no small part due to the energy we've gotten off the bench, but the starters also look a lot hungrier. Even in '06 when we got off to that hot start it was because we were out-executing people early in the season, not because we were out working them. This year we're doing both. The hustle is back and that gives us a fighting chance.
Exactly. That the starters have played fewer minutes is at least partially a mirage brought on by the fact that theyve been getting so many fourth quarters off.
That mirage should come into focus over the next few weeks, and then we'll see what we've actually got in the way of improvements. Its not clear yet, but so far most close games we've played have looked a lot like last year's games in terms of starter's minutes. We'll see if we've improved soon though, as our schedule will get tougher and games will get closer.
Ive made that same observation about Flip's reactions to other teams' runs. Though he is getting more from the bench, he's still under the impression that the starters are ALWAYS a better option than the bench, and seems to think the bench should only be used to spell the starters. He needs to realize that this isnt always the case, that rolling out Stuckey, Maxiell, or Hayes over their starter counter parts may be the better option even if the starters ARENT exactly due for a rest. The sooner he realizes that , the better we can adjust. I still worry that he wont.
As this and other posts have indicated, Im a pretty damn skeptical guy, but each win is making me less so, whether logically or not. We shall see.
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prophet_of_rage
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The fact is Flip was the best coach available and probably still is. Last year he was battling his starters (Rasheed) because he wanted to put his defence in and the first year he was just babysitting. He couldn't put his stamp on the team.
This year he is putting his stamp on the team and he is making adjustments. Saying that the minutes are a mirage because of the blowouts is looking at things pessimistically. You can't have this many blowouts by fluke. The Pistons are doing what they do, the starters build a big lead and then he goes to the bench for the rest of the stretch.
When things get tight the starters have earned the right and must be able to play more minutes. You think the starters only want 30 minutes, especially if it's game time?
The bench is developing without being exposed. Too much Stuckey and Maxiell and the league will figure out what they've got before they develop. That creates slumps. Now they come in at opportune moments and shake things up.
The other thing is we have no idea what the Pistons will look like in the playoffs. We do know the starters will likely be fresh and the reserves have played important moments in the game. You want to talk about the starters playing a lot of minutes in the Raptors game while getting ready for Boston. Sorry, the Boston game doesn't count for more wins than the Raptors game. It doesn't mean anything more. Make sure you get this W and then you try for Boston. And, it was Stuckey who was playing in the opening of the fourth. And he performed and was given plenty of time.
Finally, Flip is also playing the right people. Notice that Lindsay Hunter wasn't taken on the road trip. He was given time off and trusted to be ready. This means Stuckey gets big minutes at backup and his development is expanding exponentially. He is playing more like Chauncey and less like Flip. Flip doesn't see the court. Maxiell is the first big man off the bench. And Hermann and Brezec are victory cigars to lower the risk of injury to the starters.
Flip has done a masterful job this year and deserved to be the Eastern Conference coach of the month.
He would have a finals appearance on his resume (coincidentally against Detroit) had Cassell not been injured against the Lakers. Give the man his due this year.
This year he is putting his stamp on the team and he is making adjustments. Saying that the minutes are a mirage because of the blowouts is looking at things pessimistically. You can't have this many blowouts by fluke. The Pistons are doing what they do, the starters build a big lead and then he goes to the bench for the rest of the stretch.
When things get tight the starters have earned the right and must be able to play more minutes. You think the starters only want 30 minutes, especially if it's game time?
The bench is developing without being exposed. Too much Stuckey and Maxiell and the league will figure out what they've got before they develop. That creates slumps. Now they come in at opportune moments and shake things up.
The other thing is we have no idea what the Pistons will look like in the playoffs. We do know the starters will likely be fresh and the reserves have played important moments in the game. You want to talk about the starters playing a lot of minutes in the Raptors game while getting ready for Boston. Sorry, the Boston game doesn't count for more wins than the Raptors game. It doesn't mean anything more. Make sure you get this W and then you try for Boston. And, it was Stuckey who was playing in the opening of the fourth. And he performed and was given plenty of time.
Finally, Flip is also playing the right people. Notice that Lindsay Hunter wasn't taken on the road trip. He was given time off and trusted to be ready. This means Stuckey gets big minutes at backup and his development is expanding exponentially. He is playing more like Chauncey and less like Flip. Flip doesn't see the court. Maxiell is the first big man off the bench. And Hermann and Brezec are victory cigars to lower the risk of injury to the starters.
Flip has done a masterful job this year and deserved to be the Eastern Conference coach of the month.
He would have a finals appearance on his resume (coincidentally against Detroit) had Cassell not been injured against the Lakers. Give the man his due this year.
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BDM22
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Flip has probably the deepest team in the league 1-15, yet he's still playing guys like McDyess 30+ a night as we're blowing the doors off teams left and right. And when the game is even somewhat close all of the starters are well into the 36-40+ range. He has not changed.
Joe D forced him to play Maxiell (by not re-signing webber), and I tend to believe that it is Joe's idea to bring Stuckey into the mix this quickly. Flip was all talking about how he probably wouldn't play for a couple weeks, and they'd bring him along slowly, then bam, Murray and Lindsey are on the Inactive list. You think that was Flip's move? I doubt it. Joe D gave the word.
Not to mention Blaha was saying Chauncey is the guy who is telling the coaches to leave Stuckey in the game longer. Otherwise he'd probably be seeing 10mpg at best. This is not Flip having some kind of revelation. He is still as weak as ever.
It will be a dark day in D-town when Flip is explaining why the Pistons lost to the Celtics in the playoffs using his tried and true "we were not favored in the series" line that he brings up every time someone mentions his playoff track record.
As great as this team is, there is a still one glaring flaw. It's just a shame we didn't grab Nate McMillan when we had the chance.
Joe D forced him to play Maxiell (by not re-signing webber), and I tend to believe that it is Joe's idea to bring Stuckey into the mix this quickly. Flip was all talking about how he probably wouldn't play for a couple weeks, and they'd bring him along slowly, then bam, Murray and Lindsey are on the Inactive list. You think that was Flip's move? I doubt it. Joe D gave the word.
Not to mention Blaha was saying Chauncey is the guy who is telling the coaches to leave Stuckey in the game longer. Otherwise he'd probably be seeing 10mpg at best. This is not Flip having some kind of revelation. He is still as weak as ever.
It will be a dark day in D-town when Flip is explaining why the Pistons lost to the Celtics in the playoffs using his tried and true "we were not favored in the series" line that he brings up every time someone mentions his playoff track record.
As great as this team is, there is a still one glaring flaw. It's just a shame we didn't grab Nate McMillan when we had the chance.
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jab
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BDM22 wrote:Flip has probably the deepest team in the league 1-15, yet he's still playing guys like McDyess 30+ a night as we're blowing the doors off teams left and right. And when the game is even somewhat close all of the starters are well into the 36-40+ range. He has not changed.
Joe D forced him to play Maxiell (by not re-signing webber), and I tend to believe that it is Joe's idea to bring Stuckey into the mix this quickly. Flip was all talking about how he probably wouldn't play for a couple weeks, and they'd bring him along slowly, then bam, Murray and Lindsey are on the Inactive list. You think that was Flip's move? I doubt it. Joe D gave the word.
Not to mention Blaha was saying Chauncey is the guy who is telling the coaches to leave Stuckey in the game longer. Otherwise he'd probably be seeing 10mpg at best. This is not Flip having some kind of revelation. He is still as weak as ever.
It will be a dark day in D-town when Flip is explaining why the Pistons lost to the Celtics in the playoffs using his tried and true "we were not favored in the series" line that he brings up every time someone mentions his playoff track record.
As great as this team is, there is a still one glaring flaw. It's just a shame we didn't grab Nate McMillan when we had the chance.
QFT
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Muzzleshot
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And if Wade doesn't injure his rib the Pistons more than like don't even make it back to the Finals in '05. Playing a Miami team with a healthy Wade and a team that had year to think about their lost opportunity the year before was infinitely more difficult. The Heat in '06 were simply more hungry than the Pistons.
I've been to three Pistons games over the last two years and each time have observed interchanges between Flip and Rip that to put it mildly weren't the most pleasant of conversations. It was along the lines of why the %#@& are you taking me out of the game. This isn't some little fantasy league were you can plug in players and every move may work out well. Flip has to deal with real people who have massive egos and are super competitive, so competitive that the average person can't relate. I always love the line, "I'd accept more losses if it means giving more time to the reserves." Yeah great, from the safety of their own computer screen were they won't feel any repercussions of said losses.
The players are only playing less minutes because of the amount of blowouts? And who's system is in place that the players are clearly buying into? Clearly some of you believe that this team wins in spite of Flip and that's nonsense. It's funny how this coach who doesn't care about defense has this team playing some of the best defense in the NBA. The players clearly believe in what Flip is selling.
As far as Mcdyess, when is the last time anyone on this board has talked to him about how he's feeling or how his knees are doing? Anyone seen the MRI's of his knees? Maybe talk to the best orthopedic specialists that NBA players see, including Dice? Anyone talk to someone on the Pistons medical staff/trainers about Dice's knees?
Just a hunch, but I'm going to guess that every Pistons fan would answer these question with a no. The crazy thing is that Flip has access to all the above information.
If Joe is forcing Fip to play Stuckey, why is the guy that Joe gave $4M a year to still on the bench. Joe has said in the past that he would never tell his coach who to play. Why is it so hard to believe that Flip could have learned from past mistakes and adjusted. The guy simply can't win for losing.
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bstein14 wrote:We won a championship and were in game 7 of the finals the two years before he got here.
And if Wade doesn't injure his rib the Pistons more than like don't even make it back to the Finals in '05. Playing a Miami team with a healthy Wade and a team that had year to think about their lost opportunity the year before was infinitely more difficult. The Heat in '06 were simply more hungry than the Pistons.
I've been to three Pistons games over the last two years and each time have observed interchanges between Flip and Rip that to put it mildly weren't the most pleasant of conversations. It was along the lines of why the %#@& are you taking me out of the game. This isn't some little fantasy league were you can plug in players and every move may work out well. Flip has to deal with real people who have massive egos and are super competitive, so competitive that the average person can't relate. I always love the line, "I'd accept more losses if it means giving more time to the reserves." Yeah great, from the safety of their own computer screen were they won't feel any repercussions of said losses.
The players are only playing less minutes because of the amount of blowouts? And who's system is in place that the players are clearly buying into? Clearly some of you believe that this team wins in spite of Flip and that's nonsense. It's funny how this coach who doesn't care about defense has this team playing some of the best defense in the NBA. The players clearly believe in what Flip is selling.
As far as Mcdyess, when is the last time anyone on this board has talked to him about how he's feeling or how his knees are doing? Anyone seen the MRI's of his knees? Maybe talk to the best orthopedic specialists that NBA players see, including Dice? Anyone talk to someone on the Pistons medical staff/trainers about Dice's knees?
Just a hunch, but I'm going to guess that every Pistons fan would answer these question with a no. The crazy thing is that Flip has access to all the above information.
If Joe is forcing Fip to play Stuckey, why is the guy that Joe gave $4M a year to still on the bench. Joe has said in the past that he would never tell his coach who to play. Why is it so hard to believe that Flip could have learned from past mistakes and adjusted. The guy simply can't win for losing.
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Train Wreck
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Well Said... It's funny how quick people are to blame Flip and let the players off the hook...
We very well could have lost to a healthy Heat team is 05 with the great Larry Brown... That 06 Heat teams was a very good team that was just hungrier and better than us... There was a ton of talent on that team..
While we should have beaten the Cav's last year, you can't compare them to the LB coached teams because LB had Ben Wallace who was playing at his highest level..
We very well could have lost to a healthy Heat team is 05 with the great Larry Brown... That 06 Heat teams was a very good team that was just hungrier and better than us... There was a ton of talent on that team..
While we should have beaten the Cav's last year, you can't compare them to the LB coached teams because LB had Ben Wallace who was playing at his highest level..
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tmorgan
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Although there are some GREAT posts on both sides of the issue in this thread, the answer is probably somewhere in the middle.
Flip's not an elite coach, in the sense that he can either take good talent and make it great or soothe massive egos and make them work smoothly together, but he's definitely a pretty good one. His offense is good and his defensive schemes are top notch. There's only five to eight coaches I'd rather have, and I'm fully confident he's good enough to get us the title if the players are completely on board with his plans. That is a bit of an "if", though, with Sheed around and with Rip bitching too much. We'll see how we hold up if we lose game one of a series.
Seriously, though, anyone defending Flip's track record in the playoffs is nuts. He's definitely been a weak playoff coach, both here and in Minny, and it's perfectly legitimate to doubt his playoff coaching acumen until he proves himself otherwise. Losing to Cleveland last year was nothing short of pathetic.
Oh, and also... I do think Joe is making roster moves to force Flip's hand, but I don't think he's directly telling him who to play. Almost all coaches would want to favor the starters if they were coaching a vet group with so many years playing together -- I think it's fair that Flip does, too. I also think it's great that our GM sees the bigger picture and makes moves that don't require approval from the head coach. When one person gets all the power, myopia tends to result *cough Larry Brown in Philly cough*.
Flip's not an elite coach, in the sense that he can either take good talent and make it great or soothe massive egos and make them work smoothly together, but he's definitely a pretty good one. His offense is good and his defensive schemes are top notch. There's only five to eight coaches I'd rather have, and I'm fully confident he's good enough to get us the title if the players are completely on board with his plans. That is a bit of an "if", though, with Sheed around and with Rip bitching too much. We'll see how we hold up if we lose game one of a series.
Seriously, though, anyone defending Flip's track record in the playoffs is nuts. He's definitely been a weak playoff coach, both here and in Minny, and it's perfectly legitimate to doubt his playoff coaching acumen until he proves himself otherwise. Losing to Cleveland last year was nothing short of pathetic.
Oh, and also... I do think Joe is making roster moves to force Flip's hand, but I don't think he's directly telling him who to play. Almost all coaches would want to favor the starters if they were coaching a vet group with so many years playing together -- I think it's fair that Flip does, too. I also think it's great that our GM sees the bigger picture and makes moves that don't require approval from the head coach. When one person gets all the power, myopia tends to result *cough Larry Brown in Philly cough*.
