A's FIRE SALE, RICH HARDEN AVAILABLE ?

Jitpal · Post #41 » by **Jitpal** » Thu May 10, 2007 5:12 pm

oakfanintheeast wrote:wang? come on now.

Umm. 2006 2nd in Cy Young voting for the AL. I'm not going to look it up, but I'm pretty sure he lead the league in setting up double plays. Gold Glove caliber pitcher. Opposing batters say hitting his sinker is like trying to hit a bowling ball. He is adept at keeping his pitch count low and can frequently go into the 7th and 8th inning with 80 or less pitches. No history of injury problems. Wang is an ace. Plain and simple. -Jitpal

ReggieFULLeffect · Post #42 » by **ReggieFULLeffect** » Thu May 10, 2007 5:29 pm

Umm. 2006 2nd in Cy Young voting for the AL. I'm not going to look it up, but I'm pretty sure he lead the league in setting up double plays. Gold Glove caliber pitcher. Opposing batters say hitting his sinker is like trying to hit a bowling ball. He is adept at keeping his pitch count low and can frequently go into the 7th and 8th inning with 80 or less pitches. No history of injury problems. Wang is an ace. Plain and simple. -Jitpal

There you have it. Goes deep. Unhittable when he's on. No history of arm injuries. Legit.

34Celtic · Post #43 » by **34Celtic** » Thu May 10, 2007 5:30 pm

Noah Lowry???

ReggieFULLeffect · Post #44 » by **ReggieFULLeffect** » Thu May 10, 2007 5:34 pm

Noah Lowry???

OH NO. YOU SAID THE MAGIC WORDS!!!

oakfanintheeast · Post #45 » by **oakfanintheeast** » Thu May 10, 2007 5:38 pm

ReggieFULLeffect wrote:
Umm. 2006 2nd in Cy Young voting for the AL. I'm not going to look it up, but I'm pretty sure he lead the league in setting up double plays. Gold Glove caliber pitcher. Opposing batters say hitting his sinker is like trying to hit a bowling ball. He is adept at keeping his pitch count low and can frequently go into the 7th and 8th inning with 80 or less pitches. No history of injury problems. Wang is an ace. Plain and simple. -Jitpal

There you have it. Goes deep. Unhittable when he's on. No history of arm injuries. Legit.

sorry, no pitcher who doesnt have a strike out pitch is a top 10 pitcher in baseball. he has a great out pitch, though. wang was so unhittable last year, guys hit .277 off him. his BB/K ratio is terrible. Wang isnt better than haren this year, last year, or the year before that.

ReggieFULLeffect · Post #46 » by **ReggieFULLeffect** » Thu May 10, 2007 5:41 pm

sorry, no pitcher who doesnt have a strike out pitch is a top 10 pitcher in baseball. he has a great out pitch, though. wang was so unhittable last year, guys hit .277 off him. his BB/K ratio is terrible. Wang isnt better than haren this year, last year, or the year before that.

Yea we all know about the K rate we get it. We'll see at the end of the year my friend.

cmaff051 · Post #47 » by **cmaff051** » Thu May 10, 2007 5:48 pm

Harden is a better pitcher than Wang. He just can't stay healthy.

That being said, Wang is very valuable to the Yankees because he is such a horse and can go deep into games. I'm not sure an often injured Harden is as valuable to the Yankees (as good as he might be when he is healthy) than a fully healthy Wang who gives up more hits and strikes out less.

Jitpal · Post #48 » by **Jitpal** » Thu May 10, 2007 5:53 pm

oakfanintheeast wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

sorry, no pitcher who doesnt have a strike out pitch is a top 10 pitcher in baseball. he has a great out pitch, though. wang was so unhittable last year, guys hit .277 off him. his BB/K ratio is terrible. Wang isnt better than haren this year, last year, or the year before that.

Well he still won 19 games last year(his first full year) without said stikeout pitch. He has been getting more strikeouts this year. He also doesn't give up the home run. If he doesn't strike guys out, of course his walk to strikeout ratio is going to be horrible. Also let's not forget he pitches in the AL East where he faces the Red Sox 5 times. -Jitpal

Jitpal · Post #49 » by **Jitpal** » Thu May 10, 2007 5:56 pm

cmaff051 wrote:Harden is a better pitcher than Wang. He just can't stay healthy.

That being said, Wang is very valuable to the Yankees because he is such a horse and can go deep into games. I'm not sure an often injured Harden is as valuable to the Yankees (as good as he might be when he is healthy) than a fully healthy Wang who gives up more hits and strikes out less.

The question isn't about Harden it is about Dan Haren. The one with a 4.12 ERA. The one who gave up 31 home runs. -Jitpal

34Celtic · Post #50 » by **34Celtic** » Thu May 10, 2007 5:57 pm

oakfanintheeast wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

sorry, no pitcher who doesnt have a strike out pitch is a top 10 pitcher in baseball. he has a great out pitch, though. wang was so unhittable last year, guys hit .277 off him. his BB/K ratio is terrible. Wang isnt better than haren this year, last year, or the year before that.

Just your typical case of west coast bias :rofl:

I can't stand people who think strike out pitchers are the be all and end all.
For example Javy Vazquez finished 4 in K's last yr. Hes far from an ace. Thinking you need strikeouts to be an Ace is like thinking you need to hit 60 Hr's in order to be a great hitter. You should know that, being in Oakland fan

Oh by the way, Greg Maddux only finished in the top 10 in K's 3 times

ReggieFULLeffect · Post #51 » by **ReggieFULLeffect** » Thu May 10, 2007 6:02 pm

Just your typical case of west coast bias

I can't stand people who think strike out pitchers are the be all and end all.
For example Javy Vazquez finished 4 in K's last yr. Hes far from an ace. Thinking you need strikeouts to be an Ace is like thinking you need to hit 60 Hr's in order to be a great hitter. You should know that, being in Oakland fan

Oh by the way, Greg Maddux only finished in the top 10 in K's 3 times

It's the same argument that every hater has. Just accept that Wang is a very good pitcher and he is invaluable to the Yankees. Daniel Cabrera strikes out alot of people. He also walks just as many. Not to say K's aren'timportant, but when you look at guys like Maddux you can see that it's not the deciding factor when it comes to pitching and being the ace that Wang is.

The thing about K guys is that they throw a lot more pitches than guys like Wang, which makes it easier to go deeper into ballgames.

ccvle · Post #52 » by **ccvle** » Thu May 10, 2007 8:33 pm

No strikeout can get two outs like ground ball double play. End of discussion.

oakfanintheeast · Post #53 » by **oakfanintheeast** » Thu May 10, 2007 10:24 pm

Jitpal wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Well he still won 19 games last year(his first full year) without said stikeout pitch. He has been getting more strikeouts this year. He also doesn't give up the home run. If he doesn't strike guys out, of course his walk to strikeout ratio is going to be horrible. Also let's not forget he pitches in the AL East where he faces the Red Sox 5 times. -Jitpal

and wins are the best measure to gauge a pitcher since when?

oakfanintheeast · Post #54 » by **oakfanintheeast** » Thu May 10, 2007 10:30 pm

Jitpal wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

The question isn't about Harden it is about Dan Haren. The one with a 4.12 ERA. The one who gave up 31 home runs. -Jitpal

haren has a sub 2 ERA right now.
Wang has a 5.40 ERA

guys are hitting . 277 against wang this year
guys are hitting .207 against haren this year.

Haren's given up 4 HRs this year, Wang 3.

is wang valuable to the yankees, of course, he's probably one of their best starters. but he isnt better than haren, and im actually surprised you think that from how haren owns the yankees. if you're argument is who has the better double play pitch, then i would agree with you.. otherwise, im not sure where you're coming from. if Wang was on the a's this year... statistics he would be their 5th starter in the rotation, 6th if you include harden.

cmaff051 · Post #55 » by **cmaff051** » Thu May 10, 2007 11:51 pm

I'd take Haren over Wang.

That being said, it's pretty stupid to make judgements on who is better over about a month and a half of baseball. Haren is not going to keep up his sub 2 era and Wang is not going to be as bad as his 5 ERA.

oakfanintheeast · Post #56 » by **oakfanintheeast** » Fri May 11, 2007 12:55 am

cmaff051 wrote:I'd take Haren over Wang.

That being said, it's pretty stupid to make judgements on who is better over about a month and a half of baseball. Haren is not going to keep up his sub 2 era and Wang is not going to be as bad as his 5 ERA.

yeah.. i posted last years stats in the previous page. apparently that was good enough, though.

Post #57 » by **FNQ** » Fri May 11, 2007 2:45 am

Wang seems to remind me of a young Derek Lowe... nothing essentially flashy, but if his sinker is working, he's a dangerous guy... I wouldnt call his season last year a fluke, but defenitely not going to be the bar for his career. By all means, a good SP though. I'd still take Haren over him, Harden... I'd flip a coin on that one. Maybe if my team was good enough to make the playoffs w/o Harden, I'd value Harden (healthy for playoffs) over Wang.

Anyhow, basing anyone's stats this year off last year is folly... #s are rarely an accurate backstory or provide an accurate description of who a pitcher is... I do think Haren is a dominant pitcher, but he has been getting a bit lucky this year. Often leaves the ball high in the zone and the hitter doesnt crush it... eventually it will catch up with him and he'll have to adjust.

cmaff051 · Post #58 » by **cmaff051** » Fri May 11, 2007 2:58 am

In what world is Haren a dominant pitcher? He's a good middle of the rotation innings eater.

Harden can be dominant (when he is healthy), but Haren...haha.

Post #59 » by **FNQ** » Fri May 11, 2007 3:08 am

cmaff051 wrote:In what world is Haren a dominant pitcher? He's a good middle of the rotation innings eater.

Harden can be dominant (when he is healthy), but Haren...haha.

And here we have, a regular boxscore jumper...

Haren's splitter is tabbed as a 79 according to scouts... a dominant pitch, mixed in with a mid 90s fastball (73) with good movement, a great slider (68), and a changeup (A's dont have a listing) thats gotten much better the past two seasons...

Once again, his mentality and location/decision making is what needs more work. But a textbook way to completely be in the dark of how a pitcher actually pitches is to go by former #s... Haren is an ace now, has better stuff that Harden NOW. Funny how in a thread where it was mentioning that someone who doesnt whiff a bunch of batters can be dominant, but not Haren... who's placement has gotten much better than it was last season.

cmaff051 · Post #60 » by **cmaff051** » Fri May 11, 2007 3:15 am

OaklandReggae wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

And here we have, a regular boxscore jumper...

Haren's splitter is tabbed as a 79 according to scouts... a dominant pitch, mixed in with a mid 90s fastball (73) with good movement, a great slider (68), and a changeup (A's dont have a listing) thats gotten much better the past two seasons...

Once again, his mentality and location/decision making is what needs more work. But a textbook way to completely be in the dark of how a pitcher actually pitches is to go by former #s... Haren is an ace now, has better stuff that Harden NOW. Funny how in a thread where it was mentioning that someone who doesnt whiff a bunch of batters can be dominant, but not Haren... who's placement has gotten much better than it was last season.

Umm... I have watched Haren. He is not dominant by any means. Box scores and stats don't lie either... he has a plus splitter and fastball. Don't try to overrate his other pitches.

He is a quality middle of the rotation innings eater, with the potential to dominate at times. But you could say that about any good pitcher. How is a pitcher who gives up 224 hits in 223 innings dominant by any stretch of the imagination?