OT: SF Giants 2023

[wco81]

Rangers win the WS.

Bochy said one of the reasons he came out of retirement was that the Rangers ownership was committed to winning.

[TB]

I love Bochy but the narratives going around are so pointless (nothing anyone in here is saying). Bochy had an aging roster that couldn't find a spark and was average at best for 3 straight seasons before he left. Kapler got the best out of the roster he had for his time here as well but the talent just hasn't been there.

IMO....

- Bochy was obviously GREAT when our best players were in their prime. Then was about as good as he could be those last three years.
- Kapler was great in the three years he was here.

Neither were the problem over the last 6 years.

[wco81]

Ohtani supposedly prefers Dodgers, Red Sox and Rangers, because they are among the teams most likely to win WS in the immediate and medium term future. But there's speculation that Giants may put in one of the highest bids, if not the highest bid, and still lose out.

How likely can the Giants make a big bid for Ohtani while trying to sign that Japanese pitcher and that Korean player, as well as possibly Bellinger and others?

Are they going to suddenly try to emulate the Texas Rangers?

Red Sox gave away Betts rather than give him a big contract so they're going to spend the big money?

And the Rangers spent big money, won their WS, so how much more big contracts will they absorb?

Dodgers let Seager and Trea Turner walk rather than give them big contracts. So they could certainly pay Ohtani, though they could have kept those players and also sign Ohtani. The box office appeal doesn't matter to them, they sell out their games anyways.

My guess is the Giants may first bid for Ohtani but if they have to get into a bidding war for Yamamoto, they're not going to stay in the bidding for Ohtani too long.

That is, they're not going to get into two bidding wars simultaneously, including one for the biggest contract in US sports history, if not world sports history.

So they will probably bail on one to stay in the other. That's if they are willing to boost their payroll by that much to get one of these players, who are probably in high demand by at least a half dozen of the richest teams in the MLB.

[wco81]

It's coming down to the big moves for the offseason.

Ohtani is said to have several offers over $500 million.

Winter meetings end on Wednesday but Ohtani and Yamamoto may continue meeting with teams after Wednesday.

Meanwhile, Padres are looking to trade Soto, as the Padres are looking to cut payroll after the recent death of their owner.

Giants may be in for all the big names.

Word is the Padres have offers from about five teams for Soto — whose market is somewhat limited by his likely arbitration salary of $32 million and the extreme unlikelihood he’d do a quick deal with an acquiring team.

Complicating matters is that two of those teams are thought to be finalists for Ohtani. Few teams can take on the salaries of both Soto and Ohtani.

Those two teams are believed to be the Blue Jays and Giants, who appear to be among Ohtani finalists, along with the Dodgers, Cubs and incumbent Angels. There was also talk of a legit mystery team — no surprise there.

As for Yamamoto, every big market team seems interested, and it’s no surprise it will take time to winnow down that enormous field. That is extremely unlikely to happen here.

https://nypost.com/2023/12/04/sports/shohei-ohtani-sweepstakes-may-force-juan-soto-to-wait-for-trade/


Giants' plan B is maybe sign someone like Randy Arozarena.

Though any hitter is likely to balk at playing home games at Oracle. Zaidi says some hitters don't even want to come to Oracle for a series during the season.

[B-King]

Giants can't expect to attract top FAs if the roster is full of holes. Resigning both Slater and Yaz doesn't bode well. They are both 4th OFs at best. Realistically, we are two seasons away from maybe being a playoff team.

[wco81]

Rumors are that Ohtani is leading towards Toronto or the Dodgers, maybe the Angels are still among the final teams.

Then it will be even harder to sign Yamamoto because Dodgers and the NY teams will go even harder to try to sign him after not getting Ohtani.


If Giants can't sign a significant hitter, they may use the excuse that hitter didn't want to play at Oracle.

It may even be true to an extent.

In that case, maybe the team has to consider building a new park in Santa Clara.

Yes sacrilegious because it's an iconic stadium and one of the gems associated with the franchise.

However, if the reality is that the Giants can't field competitive teams any more because hitters are avoiding the team, they have to do something.

They played almost 40 years at Candle stick and are approaching 25 years at Oracle.

They have to change the perception of the stadium among MLB hitters. If they can't do that, they better look for a reset to a new park eventually. Otherwise they're looking at the gloomy future of being forever a doorstep in the division.

Even the Diamondbacks have signed Eduardo Rodriquez. If the Giants strike out again in free agency -- and there's so far little reason to believe they can develop all-star players out of the farm system again -- they're squandering a top 10 media market and a very good fan base which has demonstrated that it will support winners, to be also-rans not only to the Dodgers but the likes of the Diamondbacks?

[wco81]

Ohtani to Dodgers for 10 years $700 million.

So will the Giants raise their bid for Yamamoto?

Hopefully his elbow is never right again and he's not an effective pitcher any more.

Supposedly asked for salary to be deferred so they can avoid luxury taxes and spend more to build a better roster.

[sonnyhill]

The past few seasons have demonstrated that the Giants are not a franchise which free agents view as an attractive place to play.

Ballpark?

Cold evening games?

Organization not willing to spend the necessary money to sign premier free agents?

All appear to be issues which are hindering the Giants verses other teams when it comes to signing top-tiered free agent talent.

Why can't/won't the Giants ownership group invest disproportionately into its scouting, farm system, and player development programs as a way to offset the team's deficiencies in acquiring premium free agent talent? Instead of acquiring-purchasing talent, why not find, draft, develop-nurture, and matriculate to the Major League ballclub homegrown talent?

Just asking...

[GQ Hot Dog]

The past few seasons have demonstrated that the Giants are not a franchise which free agents view as an attractive place to play.

Ballpark?

Cold evening games?

Organization not willing to spend the necessary money to sign premier free agents?

All appear to be issues which are hindering the Giants verses other teams when it comes to signing top-tiered free agent talent.

Why can't/won't the Giants ownership group invest disproportionately into its scouting, farm system, and player development programs as a way to offset the team's deficiencies in acquiring premium free agent talent? Instead of acquiring-purchasing talent, why not find, draft, develop-nurture, and matriculate to the Major League ballclub homegrown talent?

Just asking...

Aren't we doing that now? I know the farm system was a desert during the Sabean years but our farm system is in pretty good shape now, I thought?

[Nvnervous45]

The Giants are caught in mediocre purgatory. When Farhan took over in 2018, the prospect cupboard was bare, as the giants by the end of that season had the 28th ranked farm system in all of baseball. Meanwhile the roster had a gaggle of fading vets like Evan longoria, Andrew McCutcheon etc. Big time free agents like Harper and judge didn't want any part of a team with diminished talent that seemed to be trending downward.
Fast forward 5 years and some of our minor league players are coming to fruition. However is that enough to convince superstars like ohtani that we are ready to compete with the Dodgers ? Probably not. Ohtani just spent the last 6 years trying to carry the angels on his back? And the hard-hitting question for Giants fans is; do the Giants have enough pieces in place that he wouldn't waste 10 more years of his career chasing an elusive title? Again, probably not.

[wco81]

No they're in the middle as far as farm system.

Bart the #2 pick of the draft is a bust.

Corbin Carroll of the Diamondbacks is the rookie of the year and was instrumental in the Diamondbacks beating both the Dodgers and the Phillies and reaching the WS.

He was the #16 pick of the 2019 draft. Giants drafted Hunter Bishop at #10 in the draft and he hasn't panned out either.

They have some bad luck with injuries but I suspect bad development coaches is a part of the story.

I've heard allegations that the Giants ownership is only interested in profits so while they tried for some free agents now and then, there's no evidence that they'd spend big, other than the bid for Judge last year and the deal they reached with Correa which was later canceled.

I think Bochy saw where the organization was, with a bare cupboard, and bailed, then went to the Rangers, who've spent like crazy to win a WS.

If the Giants had a productive farm system, they wouldn't have to chase free agents. But it's clear now for at least the past 5-10 years that other teams draft and develop a lot better, including many picks by teams like the Dodgers who are always drafting much later than the Giants.

It's complacency after the WS titles.

Oracle Park is a jewel for fans, great experience. But it's been horrible for the team competitively in the last 5-8 years.

No doubt when they had all the great homegrown pitching, it led to wins and WS titles. But baseball changed to the rabbit ball era and tons of HRs. Giants haven't had a 30 HR hitter since Bonds? Maybe Crawford had a record year and Belt got close. But while other teams had 40-50 HR hitters in their lineup, the Giants were at most hitting 25-30 once every couple of seasons.

They either reconfigure the park drastically or dump it for a new stadium in Santa Clara. Otherwise they're going to be stuck in mediocrity.

[HiRez]

The scary part is this could be a preview of what the Warriors will soon be facing themselves. Poor drafting, poor development coaching, and probably being just good enough to not get the premium draft picks even if they could draft better. They are likely to let their core age out instead of getting players/high picks for them while they still have value. The difference maybe is Lacob hasn't been allergic to spending money to go after championships but we don't know what happens when they have to essentially start from scratch when Steph retires or declines significantly.

[sonnyhill]

Ohtani to Dodgers for 10 years $700 million.

So will the Giants raise their bid for Yamamoto?

Hopefully his elbow is never right again and he's not an effective pitcher any more.

Supposedly asked for salary to be deferred so they can avoid luxury taxes and spend more to build a better roster.

Ohtani is being paid $2 million per year for the next 10 years, and he will receive the rest of the $700 million starting in 2034, thus making it easier for the Dodgers to add more free agent contracts to their roster.

[wco81]

Yeah I’m boycotting all his sponsors. New Balance is one.

Dumb loophole in the MLB CBA. Can you imagine if they can do that ish in the NBA?

It’s a joke.

[Nvnervous45]

When it comes to spending the Giants are not a tier 1 team like the Dodgers, Yankees, and until very recently the red sox.
I think we caught lightning in a bottle in 2010, 2012, and 2014 by drafting and developing an outstanding pitching staff (madison, timmy, and cain) a few key defensive positions like catcher and shortstop and of course a monster bullpen. Then we supplemented our youth with above average talent in free agency and trades ( Ross, Burrell, Sanchez, Scutaro etc.) I think that's the formula that plays well at our park.

[wco81]

Except with the juiced ball, teams are more dependent on HRs to generate runs than was the case 10 years ago.

There are a lot of sluggers hitting like .220 but jacking over 30 HRs. Kyle Schwarber only hit .197 but also 47 HRs and 104 RBIs. He was a factor in the playoffs too.

Giants can’t even have 1 batter hitting 30 HRs at Oracle. Trying to recall but Bonds may be the only Giant to hit over 30 HRs at that park.

[Nvnervous45]

Kent of course, but I hear you. The reality is that we play in a pitchers park and nobody not named Barry bonds or protected in the lineup by a Barry bonds is gonna hit 30-40 jacks here with the heavy air and the long fences.
I'd rather we play to the strengths of pitching and defense and let the chips fall where they may.
I mean in 2002 we were a robb nen injury in the bullpen from closing out that series against the angels.

[HiRez]

I mean in 2002 we were a robb nen injury in the bullpen from closing out that series against the angels.

Or maybe just let Russ Ortiz finish the job!

[wco81]

Kent of course, but I hear you. The reality is that we play in a pitchers park and nobody not named Barry bonds or protected in the lineup by a Barry bonds is gonna hit 30-40 jacks here with the heavy air and the long fences.
I'd rather we play to the strengths of pitching and defense and let the chips fall where they may.
I mean in 2002 we were a robb nen injury in the bullpen from closing out that series against the angels.

Interestingly, Kent's two biggest HR seasons were with the Giants, in 2000 and 2002.

But I'm not sure if they played at what is Oracle now in 2000?

May have been the first season there.

Maybe the park was configured differently in the early years.

Obviously being in the lineup with Bonds helped a big deal, got him pitches he wouldn't see otherwise.

Those two seasons were 6.9 WAR and 2001 was 5.0 WAR. After that the next highest WAR were 3.7 with the Astros in 2004 and 3.5 with the Dodgers in 2005.

I can't recall why he left the Giants, probably because he was 34 in his last season with the Giants in 2002. But that was a 6.9 WAR year!

He was still driving in at least 60-70 runs a year, all the way out to age 40 in 2008.

Maybe he had some of the BAALCO stuff too.

[sonnyhill]

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