Saints Leadup

[skones]

I dislike Barry as much as the next guy but I also think we flat out overrate the players on the D. Their best and highest paid have a bad habit of coming up small at the worst times.

Oh and I'm not ruling out some kind of curse since it's now like 20 years of no matter the players or coach the D always kind of looks the same and untrustworthy.

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I think the talent is certainly in place. Individually we've seen Jaire, Campbell, Clark, Smith, Douglas and Gary have great statistical campaigns. Quay has been excellent through his first two games and Wyatt has had his moments as well. With that being said, we haven't exactly had creative Defensive playcalling within the franchise for YEARS. A good defensive coordinator should alter approach based on the strengths of personnel. It's clear that Barry hasn't done that through soft zones, playing Walker too much in coverage last season, and ultimately rolling out vanilla schemes.

The Atlanta check to Robinson on the perimeter exposes more flags there than anything else. A simple check by Desmond **** Ridder of all people gave them an absolute layup for the first down. If your defense is exposed to that degree with one simple check in that late game situation, it's a major issue. That's what Barry is. Teams know what we're going to do.

[MickeyDavis]

I get that Detroit is a division game but I don't want to necessarily just punt this game. Doubs was questionable with a hammy 2 days before the Bears game, he played and has been fine since. I know each injury isn't the same but hopefully these guys can go and be fine for the Lions.

[ReasonablySober]

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[humanrefutation]

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[WeekapaugGroove]

I dislike Barry as much as the next guy but I also think we flat out overrate the players on the D. Their best and highest paid have a bad habit of coming up small at the worst times.

Oh and I'm not ruling out some kind of curse since it's now like 20 years of no matter the players or coach the D always kind of looks the same and untrustworthy.

Sent from my SM-F731U using RealGM mobile app

I think the talent is certainly in place. Individually we've seen Jaire, Campbell, Clark, Smith, Douglas and Gary have great statistical campaigns. Quay has been excellent through his first two games and Wyatt has had his moments as well. With that being said, we haven't exactly had creative Defensive playcalling within the franchise for YEARS. A good defensive coordinator should alter approach based on the strengths of personnel. It's clear that Barry hasn't done that through soft zones, playing Walker too much in coverage last season, and ultimately rolling out vanilla schemes.

The Atlanta check to Robinson on the perimeter exposes more flags there than anything else. A simple check by Desmond **** Ridder of all people gave them an absolute layup for the first down. If your defense is exposed to that degree with one simple check in that late game situation, it's a major issue. That's what Barry is. Teams know what we're going to do.

I don't even like playing devil's advocate here because they could fire Barry tomorrow and I'd be happy and I personally hate the **** out of bend don't break approach.


But he's not coaching guys to miss tackles or drop interceptions. It's not scheme that made Kenny Clark grade out like **** against the run even though he's a top 10 paid DT. Last season I don't think their better play down the stretch was Barry doing anything different it was guys simply playing better.

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[skones]

I don't even like playing devil's advocate here because they could fire Barry tomorrow and I'd be happy and I personally hate the **** out of bend don't break approach.


But he's not coaching guys to miss tackles or drop interceptions. It's not scheme that made Kenny Clark grade out like **** against the run even though he's a top 10 paid DT. Last season I don't think their better play down the stretch was Barry doing anything different it was guys simply playing better.

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I think that's all fair, but what I also think is that our scheme didn't exactly do a lot of guys favors. With that being said, I DO think it's disingenuous to say that Barry wasn't doing anything different last season when that was pretty well documented. Jaire for example, ACTUALLY shadowing WR1s instead of lining straight up.

Weeks 1-12 last year for example, we blitzed (3-4 base kind of mucks this up a bit) 40.1% of the time while playing 69% in zone concepts. The last 5 weeks of the season we dropped to 18.4% on blitzes and jumped to 85.5% in those respective numbers. 3 of those 5 contests came against teams in the playoff mix in Miami, Minnesota, and Detroit, so it wasn't a case of simply playing worse competition.

Think these tendencies provide a lot of context to Lukas Van Ness as I think he's viable in both a 3-4 and a 4-3 which could make him a bit of a swiss army knife and help disguise our looks much more.

[MoreTrife]

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Cool! Some pretty good players in their day, including several HOF'ers.

And Brett Swain.

[stillgotgame]

I dislike Barry as much as the next guy but I also think we flat out overrate the players on the D. Their best and highest paid have a bad habit of coming up small at the worst times.

Oh and I'm not ruling out some kind of curse since it's now like 20 years of no matter the players or coach the D always kind of looks the same and untrustworthy.

Sent from my SM-F731U using RealGM mobile app

I think the talent is certainly in place. Individually we've seen Jaire, Campbell, Clark, Smith, Douglas and Gary have great statistical campaigns. Quay has been excellent through his first two games and Wyatt has had his moments as well. With that being said, we haven't exactly had creative Defensive playcalling within the franchise for YEARS. A good defensive coordinator should alter approach based on the strengths of personnel. It's clear that Barry hasn't done that through soft zones, playing Walker too much in coverage last season, and ultimately rolling out vanilla schemes.

The Atlanta check to Robinson on the perimeter exposes more flags there than anything else. A simple check by Desmond **** Ridder of all people gave them an absolute layup for the first down. If your defense is exposed to that degree with one simple check in that late game situation, it's a major issue. That's what Barry is. Teams know what we're going to do.

Quay was excellent at what? He did a great job of tackling 10 yards down field, play after play. Barry is doing an awesome job of turning him into Blake Martinez.

Watch some Falcons highlights if you can stomach it. Over and over again you see Quay slow to react then turning on the jets and catching guys well after the 1st down has been made.

Watch on YouTube

[BUCKnation]

I dislike Barry as much as the next guy but I also think we flat out overrate the players on the D. Their best and highest paid have a bad habit of coming up small at the worst times.

Oh and I'm not ruling out some kind of curse since it's now like 20 years of no matter the players or coach the D always kind of looks the same and untrustworthy.

Sent from my SM-F731U using RealGM mobile app

I think there's a lot of talent on D. Young athletic guys in their prime. We should be aggressive, getting upfield and pressuring opposing teams to throw the ball and force them into mistakes. Instead we lay back and gap control, challenging them to methodically drive down the field.
This might be a good choice for an old, experienced and savvy defense, but that's not what we have.

I'm no D coordinator, but you'd think with the great pass pressure and CBs who are willing to press, why don't we do it more?

[BUCKnation]

I also think the Falcons were specifically built to exploit our weak run D. We're just not recruiting run stuffers. I would like some of our very expensive guys in the trenches to perform better in that aspect, but we're built for pass pressure. If we get killed this week or next by Carr or Goff, then we have some real problems.

[CWoodfan]

I also think the Falcons were specifically built to exploit our weak run D. We're just not recruiting run stuffers. I would like some of our very expensive guys in the trenches to perform better in that aspect, but we're built for pass pressure. If we get killed this week or next by Carr or Goff, then we have some real problems.

The Packers are very fortunate that if they should make the playoffs, it is not like the top NFC teams like Philly or SF have running attacks that could exploit our weak run D.

And how could Packer fans expect the run D to be any good with just two 1st round picks at DT (Clark and Wyatt), two at Edge (LVN and Gary) and one at ILB (Walker)?

Surely that is not a sufficient expenditure of draft capital to expect that the run D should not get "shredded" or "gashed" (MLF's words after the Falcons game) in 2023 as it has for over a decade now.

[stillgotgame]

I dislike Barry as much as the next guy but I also think we flat out overrate the players on the D. Their best and highest paid have a bad habit of coming up small at the worst times.

Oh and I'm not ruling out some kind of curse since it's now like 20 years of no matter the players or coach the D always kind of looks the same and untrustworthy.

Sent from my SM-F731U using RealGM mobile app

I think there's a lot of talent on D. Young athletic guys in their prime. We should be aggressive, getting upfield and pressuring opposing teams to throw the ball and force them into mistakes. Instead we lay back and gap control, challenging them to methodically drive down the field.
This might be a good choice for an old, experienced and savvy defense, but that's not what we have.

I'm no D coordinator, but you'd think with the great pass pressure and CBs who are willing to press, why don't we do it more?

I think it's Barry's philosophy, bend don't break. Force them to execute play after play, then pounce when they make a mistake. His defenses have always given up a lot of yards.
It's neutering our best athlete on defense, Quay. He's awesome when he's moving forward.

[MVP2110]

I dislike Barry as much as the next guy but I also think we flat out overrate the players on the D. Their best and highest paid have a bad habit of coming up small at the worst times.

Oh and I'm not ruling out some kind of curse since it's now like 20 years of no matter the players or coach the D always kind of looks the same and untrustworthy.

Sent from my SM-F731U using RealGM mobile app

I think there's a lot of talent on D. Young athletic guys in their prime. We should be aggressive, getting upfield and pressuring opposing teams to throw the ball and force them into mistakes. Instead we lay back and gap control, challenging them to methodically drive down the field.
This might be a good choice for an old, experienced and savvy defense, but that's not what we have.

I'm no D coordinator, but you'd think with the great pass pressure and CBs who are willing to press, why don't we do it more?

You can't press everything. If you play solely press man you are setting up pick plays to be run against you at will. The way most fans talk I think they'd be surprised that nearly every NFL team runs more zone than man

https://www.the33rdteam.com/category/analysis/breaking-down-nfl-man-zone-coverage-schemes/

[MVP2110]

I also think the Falcons were specifically built to exploit our weak run D. We're just not recruiting run stuffers. I would like some of our very expensive guys in the trenches to perform better in that aspect, but we're built for pass pressure. If we get killed this week or next by Carr or Goff, then we have some real problems.

The Packers are very fortunate that if they should make the playoffs, it is not like the top NFC teams like Philly or SF have running attacks that could exploit our weak run D.

And how could Packer fans expect the run D to be any good with just two 1st round picks at DT (Clark and Wyatt), two at Edge (LVN and Gary) and one at ILB (Walker)?

Surely that is not a sufficient expenditure of draft capital to expect that the run D should not get "shredded" or "gashed" (MLF's words after the Falcons game) in 2023 as it has for over a decade now.

So I'll ask you the same thing I was asking others last week. What schematic changes should Barry have done last Sunday? He ran 4 dbs or less over 50% of the time so he was bringing in an extra big guy a majority of the game but the guys out there performed terribly.

[skones]

Quay was excellent at what? He did a great job of tackling 10 yards down field, play after play. Barry is doing an awesome job of turning him into Blake Martinez.

Watch some Falcons highlights if you can stomach it. Over and over again you see Quay slow to react then turning on the jets and catching guys well after the 1st down has been made.

Dude currently grades out an 88.8 through two games on PFF. When I said Quay was excellent I meant it.

[MVP2110]

Quay was excellent at what? He did a great job of tackling 10 yards down field, play after play. Barry is doing an awesome job of turning him into Blake Martinez.

Watch some Falcons highlights if you can stomach it. Over and over again you see Quay slow to react then turning on the jets and catching guys well after the 1st down has been made.

Dude currently grades out an 88.8 through two games on PFF. When I said Quay was excellent I meant it.

Quay has been awesome. He's been their best defensive player so far. It's only 2 games so I want to see if he can continue to sustain it but it's been awesome to see so far

[stillgotgame]

Quay was excellent at what? He did a great job of tackling 10 yards down field, play after play. Barry is doing an awesome job of turning him into Blake Martinez.

Watch some Falcons highlights if you can stomach it. Over and over again you see Quay slow to react then turning on the jets and catching guys well after the 1st down has been made.

Dude currently grades out an 88.8 through two games on PFF. When I said Quay was excellent I meant it.

Quay has been awesome. He's been their best defensive player so far. It's only 2 games so I want to see if he can continue to sustain it but it's been awesome to see so far

I disagree.
Here's 11 plays he made at least 5 yards downfield:

1st & 10 at ATL 20
(13:54 - 1st) (Shotgun) D.Ridder pass short right to D.London to ATL 29 for 9 yards (K.Clark; Q.Walker).

2nd & 1 at ATL 29
(13:20 - 1st) (Shotgun) B.Robinson left end to ATL 36 for 7 yards (D.Campbell; Q.Walker).

2nd & 10 at GB 41
(7:56 - 1st) D.Ridder pass short right to J.Smith pushed ob at GB 34 for 7 yards (Q.Walker).

2nd & 1 at GB 20
(5:57 - 1st) (Shotgun) D.Ridder pass short right to B.Robinson pushed ob at GB 11 for 9 yards (Q.Walker).

1st & 10 at ATL 34
(11:25 - 2nd) B.Robinson right tackle to GB 47 for 19 yards (R.Douglas, Q.Walker).

2nd & 5 at ATL 30
(2:28 - 2nd) (Shotgun) B.Robinson left end to ATL 39 for 9 yards (Q.Walker).

1st & 10 at GB 48
(1:53 - 2nd) (No Huddle, Shotgun) D.Ridder pass short right to M.Hollins to GB 40 for 8 yards (Q.Walker).

1st & 10 at ATL 25
(10:29 - 3rd) (Shotgun) B.Robinson right tackle to ATL 38 for 13 yards (Q.Walker).

1st & 10 at ATL 38
(9:44 - 3rd) B.Robinson right end to ATL 43 for 5 yards (D.Campbell, Q.Walker).

1st & 10 at GB 32
(4:17 - 4th) B.Robinson right tackle to GB 27 for 5 yards (Q.Walker, K.Clark).

3rd & 6 at GB 12
(1:47 - 4th) B.Robinson left end to GB 7 for 5 yards (Q.Walker; P.Smith).

This screams Blake Martinez. Anyone can lead the league in tackles when the angle they take is 10 yards downfield. I think this is more on Barry than Quay though.

[skones]

I disagree.
Here's 11 plays he made at least 5 yards downfield:

1st & 10 at ATL 20
(13:54 - 1st) (Shotgun) D.Ridder pass short right to D.London to ATL 29 for 9 yards (K.Clark; Q.Walker).

2nd & 1 at ATL 29
(13:20 - 1st) (Shotgun) B.Robinson left end to ATL 36 for 7 yards (D.Campbell; Q.Walker).

2nd & 10 at GB 41
(7:56 - 1st) D.Ridder pass short right to J.Smith pushed ob at GB 34 for 7 yards (Q.Walker).

2nd & 1 at GB 20
(5:57 - 1st) (Shotgun) D.Ridder pass short right to B.Robinson pushed ob at GB 11 for 9 yards (Q.Walker).

1st & 10 at ATL 34
(11:25 - 2nd) B.Robinson right tackle to GB 47 for 19 yards (R.Douglas, Q.Walker).

2nd & 5 at ATL 30
(2:28 - 2nd) (Shotgun) B.Robinson left end to ATL 39 for 9 yards (Q.Walker).

1st & 10 at GB 48
(1:53 - 2nd) (No Huddle, Shotgun) D.Ridder pass short right to M.Hollins to GB 40 for 8 yards (Q.Walker).

1st & 10 at ATL 25
(10:29 - 3rd) (Shotgun) B.Robinson right tackle to ATL 38 for 13 yards (Q.Walker).

1st & 10 at ATL 38
(9:44 - 3rd) B.Robinson right end to ATL 43 for 5 yards (D.Campbell, Q.Walker).

1st & 10 at GB 32
(4:17 - 4th) B.Robinson right tackle to GB 27 for 5 yards (Q.Walker, K.Clark).

3rd & 6 at GB 12
(1:47 - 4th) B.Robinson left end to GB 7 for 5 yards (Q.Walker; P.Smith).

This screams Blake Martinez. Anyone can lead the league in tackles when the angle they take is 10 yards downfield. I think this is more on Barry than Quay though.

This isn't how football works. That's it. That's the post.

[MVP2110]

Dude currently grades out an 88.8 through two games on PFF. When I said Quay was excellent I meant it.

Quay has been awesome. He's been their best defensive player so far. It's only 2 games so I want to see if he can continue to sustain it but it's been awesome to see so far

I disagree.
Here's 11 plays he made at least 5 yards downfield:

1st & 10 at ATL 20
(13:54 - 1st) (Shotgun) D.Ridder pass short right to D.London to ATL 29 for 9 yards (K.Clark; Q.Walker).

2nd & 1 at ATL 29
(13:20 - 1st) (Shotgun) B.Robinson left end to ATL 36 for 7 yards (D.Campbell; Q.Walker).

2nd & 10 at GB 41
(7:56 - 1st) D.Ridder pass short right to J.Smith pushed ob at GB 34 for 7 yards (Q.Walker).

2nd & 1 at GB 20
(5:57 - 1st) (Shotgun) D.Ridder pass short right to B.Robinson pushed ob at GB 11 for 9 yards (Q.Walker).

1st & 10 at ATL 34
(11:25 - 2nd) B.Robinson right tackle to GB 47 for 19 yards (R.Douglas, Q.Walker).

2nd & 5 at ATL 30
(2:28 - 2nd) (Shotgun) B.Robinson left end to ATL 39 for 9 yards (Q.Walker).

1st & 10 at GB 48
(1:53 - 2nd) (No Huddle, Shotgun) D.Ridder pass short right to M.Hollins to GB 40 for 8 yards (Q.Walker).

1st & 10 at ATL 25
(10:29 - 3rd) (Shotgun) B.Robinson right tackle to ATL 38 for 13 yards (Q.Walker).

1st & 10 at ATL 38
(9:44 - 3rd) B.Robinson right end to ATL 43 for 5 yards (D.Campbell, Q.Walker).

1st & 10 at GB 32
(4:17 - 4th) B.Robinson right tackle to GB 27 for 5 yards (Q.Walker, K.Clark).
3rd & 6 at GB 12
(1:47 - 4th) B.Robinson left end to GB 7 for 5 yards (Q.Walker; P.Smith).

This screams Blake Martinez. Anyone can lead the league in tackles when the angle they take is 10 yards downfield. I think this is more on Barry than Quay though.

Quay also had 4 pressures, 4 stops, and a pass breakup. He also had 0 missed tackles. It's not just about the number of tackles he had even though that itself was impressive given it set a Packers record. But it's his overall play, as an ILB he's going to have several downfield tackles, that's the nature of the position, but he also is impacting the game in several other areas.

[stillgotgame]

I disagree.
Here's 11 plays he made at least 5 yards downfield:

1st & 10 at ATL 20
(13:54 - 1st) (Shotgun) D.Ridder pass short right to D.London to ATL 29 for 9 yards (K.Clark; Q.Walker).

2nd & 1 at ATL 29
(13:20 - 1st) (Shotgun) B.Robinson left end to ATL 36 for 7 yards (D.Campbell; Q.Walker).

2nd & 10 at GB 41
(7:56 - 1st) D.Ridder pass short right to J.Smith pushed ob at GB 34 for 7 yards (Q.Walker).

2nd & 1 at GB 20
(5:57 - 1st) (Shotgun) D.Ridder pass short right to B.Robinson pushed ob at GB 11 for 9 yards (Q.Walker).

1st & 10 at ATL 34
(11:25 - 2nd) B.Robinson right tackle to GB 47 for 19 yards (R.Douglas, Q.Walker).

2nd & 5 at ATL 30
(2:28 - 2nd) (Shotgun) B.Robinson left end to ATL 39 for 9 yards (Q.Walker).

1st & 10 at GB 48
(1:53 - 2nd) (No Huddle, Shotgun) D.Ridder pass short right to M.Hollins to GB 40 for 8 yards (Q.Walker).

1st & 10 at ATL 25
(10:29 - 3rd) (Shotgun) B.Robinson right tackle to ATL 38 for 13 yards (Q.Walker).

1st & 10 at ATL 38
(9:44 - 3rd) B.Robinson right end to ATL 43 for 5 yards (D.Campbell, Q.Walker).

1st & 10 at GB 32
(4:17 - 4th) B.Robinson right tackle to GB 27 for 5 yards (Q.Walker, K.Clark).

3rd & 6 at GB 12
(1:47 - 4th) B.Robinson left end to GB 7 for 5 yards (Q.Walker; P.Smith).

This screams Blake Martinez. Anyone can lead the league in tackles when the angle they take is 10 yards downfield. I think this is more on Barry than Quay though.

This isn't how football works. That's it. That's the post.

Did you watch the game? I guess you're so used to us tackling 10 yards downfield after getting gaped at the line of scrimmage you think this is good. I'll just say I disagree.