Milwaukee Brewers @ Texas Rangers, 6/8/07, 7:35 PM

[trwi7]

Why was Gross our DH tonight? Gotta get that .211 BA in the lineup. Or you could start Gwynn in center and DH Hall. I don't get Yost's man crush on Gabe Gross.

There's more to the game than batting average. Our "prototypical leadoff hitter" Gwynn has a .308 batting average and a .372 OBP and only a .359 SLG% compared to Gross's .213 batting average, .355 OBP and .426 SLG%

So when you look at the numbers Gross>>>>Gwynn.

[worthlessBucks]

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There's more to the game than batting average. Our "prototypical leadoff hitter" Gwynn has a .308 batting average and a .372 OBP and only a .359 SLG% compared to Gross's .213 batting average, .355 OBP and .426 SLG%

So when you look at the numbers Gross>>>>Gwynn.

If you meant Gross > Gwynn at DH, then that makes some sense because SLG is a big factor for DH's. But I fail to see how Tony Gwynn is not superior to Gross based on your evidence. Tony leads in 2 of the categories you listed, whereas Gross is is only superior in 1 category, slugging. Or is SLG the end all with you triwi7 ?

[trwi7]

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If you meant Gross > Gwynn at DH, then that makes some sense because SLG is a big factor for DH's. But I fail to see how Tony Gwynn is not superior to Gross based on your evidence. Tony leads in 2 of the categories you listed, whereas Gross is is only superior in 1 category, slugging. Or is SLG the end all with you triwi7 ?

.308 batting average .372 OBP, OBP is .064 points higher than BA.

.213 batting average .355 OBP, OBP is .142 points higher than BA.

Which means our prototypical leadoff hitter Gwynn doesn't draw as many walks as a player that plays his style should. The slugging% just adds to the fact that Gross is a better player.

[worthlessBucks]

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.308 batting average .372 OBP, OBP is .064 points higher than BA.

.213 batting average .355 OBP, OBP is .142 points higher than BA.

Which means our prototypical leadoff hitter Gwynn doesn't draw as many walks as a player that plays his style should. The slugging% just adds to the fact that Gross is a better player.

Fair enough, your point was that Gwynn doesn't draw enough walks. One glance at his stats would allow me to agree with you. However, the kid is 24 years old and playing in his first full big league year. He's stricken to spot starts and pinch hitting duties, he could find it tough to relax at the plate knowing that he needs to impress with a hit to garner more playing time. Gross has 3 years on Tony, yet he's still under performing in 2 of the 3 categories you listed. And, Gross's inability to hit lefties adds to the fact that Gwynn is the better player.

Anyways, I personally have never thought very highly of Gross. He's an adequate bench guy, he's just nothing more than a 4th or 5th outfielder. Gwynn has less major league experience than Gross, is 3 years younger, has demonstrated an ability to hit both right handers and lefties, and is a threat on the base paths. In an ideal world, neither Corey Hart or Rickie Weeks are batting leadoff, I'd rather take my chances with Tony Gwynn in the future than either of them. I project Hart to develop more power over his next few years; I would definitely prefer to see him lower in the order. I think it's too early in Gwynn's Major League] career to write him off as a prospect incapable of drawing walks. Tony had the OBP in college and the minors that indicates that he can get on base at a respectable clip, writing him off after 155 Major League ABs is silly.

[trwi7]

However, the kid is 24 years old and playing in his first full big league year.

I'm not looking at his stats in the majors, I'm looking at the minors and he didn't do a great job drawing walks there either. What makes you think he'll begin to draw walks against better competition?

Gross has 3 years on Tony, yet he's still under performing in 2 of the 3 categories you listed.

Gross also had a very good year last year and much better numbers than Gwynn did in the minors. Higher OBP, more power etc.

Gross has 3 years on Tony, yet he's still under performing in 2 of the 3 categories you listed.

That's a really small sample. I'm going off minor league numbers and what Gross did in the majors last year.

If Gross goes 4-4 in his next 4 at bats his batting average goes from .213 to .262 and his OBP goes from .355 to .385.

And, Gross's inability to hit lefties adds to the fact that Gwynn is the better player.

I agree Gross doesn't hit lefties well but Gwynn isn't great either. He hit .269 against them in 2005 and 2006 combined between Huntsville and Nashville.

Gwynn has less major league experience than Gross, is 3 years younger, has demonstrated an ability to hit both right handers and lefties, and is a threat on the base paths.

Gross has 490 major league at bats and Gwynn has 155. Before last year Gross had a total of 221 major league at bats. And Gwynn doesn't hit left handers well, better than Gross but not "the ability to hit both." And Gwynn didn't have a great stolen base % in the minors either, Hart was better. Gwynn stole just over 71% successfully in the minors.

In an ideal world, neither Corey Hart or Rickie Weeks are batting leadoff, I'd rather take my chances with Tony Gwynn in the future than either of them.

In an ideal world I agree neither one would bat leadoff but they are better options than Gwynn right now and most likely will continue to be.

I think it's too early in Gwynn's Major League] career to write him off as a prospect incapable of drawing walks.

I agree but it doesn't look good especially when he'll need those walks because he's not a power threat.

Tony had the OBP in college and the minors that indicates that he can get on base at a respectable clip, writing him off after 155 Major League ABs is silly.

I'm not writing him off I'm just saying and have been saying that many of you overrate him badly. And he didn't have a good OBP in the minors either, it was only .347 which is unacceptable if you can't hit for power and rely on speed.

[Ill-yasova]

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There's more to the game than batting average. Our "prototypical leadoff hitter" Gwynn has a .308 batting average and a .372 OBP and only a .359 SLG% compared to Gross's .213 batting average, .355 OBP and .426 SLG%

So when you look at the numbers Gross>>>>Gwynn.

How about Gross has 13 hits while Gwynn has 24. Gwynn has 8 RBI, Gross has 7. Gwynn has 6 SB, Gross 1. Gwynn 10 runs, Gross 9.

Gwynn>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Gross.
Come on

[Ill-yasova]

trwi7= Yost?

[JoeWolfFan]

I agree batting average is overrated. However, someone that bats .213 is barely a major league baseball player and here is why:

Ask yourself this question, "With two outs, runners on second and third, Brewers down one, who would you rather have up, Gross or Gwynn?"

If you said Gross, I suggest you put the crack pipe down and find a new hobby.

[trwi7]

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How about Gross has 13 hits while Gwynn has 24. Gwynn has 8 RBI, Gross has 7. Gwynn has 6 SB, Gross 1. Gwynn 10 runs, Gross 9.

Gwynn>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Gross.
Come on

How about this? Gross has 3 more homeruns, Gwynn has 17 more at bats than Gross, Gwynn only has one more run in 17 more at bats but he's such a great player and leadoff hitter!!

[trwi7]

I agree batting average is overrated. However, someone that bats .213 is barely a major league baseball player and here is why:

Ask yourself this question, "With two outs, runners on second and third, Brewers down one, who would you rather have up, Gross or Gwynn?"

If you said Gross, I suggest you put the crack pipe down and find a new hobby.

So what we're just going to ignore Gross batting about .300 against right handed pitchers last year? We're going to ignore that Gross had better minor league numbers than Gwynn his whole career? But OMG Gwynn is so awesome, he's our future leadoff hitter, his dad is a hall of famer so he must be too!

[Ill-yasova]

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How about this? Gross has 3 more homeruns, Gwynn has 17 more at bats than Gross, Gwynn only has one more run in 17 more at bats but he's such a great player and leadoff hitter!!

The last two home runs were both on May 17th. With the other one coming on April 8th.

And by the way Gwynn has a better OBP now too

[whatthe_buck!?]

There's more to the game than batting average. Our "prototypical leadoff hitter" Gwynn has a .308 batting average and a .372 OBP and only a .359 SLG% compared to Gross's .213 batting average, .355 OBP and .426 SLG%

So when you look at the numbers Gross>>>>Gwynn.

I hate to do this to you trwi7, especially because you have been supporting me in my crusade to shed the light on Yost's shortcomings, but I just read the rest of this thread and I have to say it: your opinion makes almost no sense. If you want to argue that Gross hits with more power than Gwynn, then you will win. Otherwise, you should stay probably stay off the topic of who is a more productive player, and definitely off the subject of who gets on base more.

Even if their offensive stats backed you up at the time you made the arguement, which they didn't, the case could still be made that Gwynn should in all cases play over Gross, because he is a young developing player who needs to be given a chance to blossom as opposed to a washed up ex-first round draft pick who will be out of the league in a couple of years, and that is in addition to the apparent difference in amount of ground they can cover in the outfield.

I have no idea what has caused this irrational defense of Yost's decision to play Gross over Gwynn, but maybe if I tell you, truthfully, that it closely resembles some of Yost's irrational man crushes of the past you will come to you senses. Hopefully the shame of making statements like the following-

If Gross goes 4-4 in his next 4 at bats his batting average goes from .213 to .262 and his OBP goes from .355 to .385.

will teach you the valuable lesson that defending Yost never made anyone look good, quite the contrary. All it will really do for you is to provoke in others a smarta*ss reply such as the following-

"Yeah, well if he goes 0 for 7 in his next seven at-bats his BA goes from .213 to .191 and his OBP goes from .355 to .325"

In case this is some kind of revelation, players who have batting averages in the lower .200's happen to be much more likely to 0 for 7 than 4 for 4.

Unfortunately for you, I think Gwynn's performance in the coming years versus Gross' performance (in the relatively short time he has left in the majors) will only serve to make your opinion look all the worse, but maybe you're right and maybe it turns out that Gwynn really isn't anything special. I believe otherwise, and it stems from my belief that a player's ability to just flat out hit will supersede any deficiencies that player may have when it comes to plate patience and power; although more experience will hopefully serve to remedy the former problem in Gwynn's case, experience he can only get, at least during this season, at the expense of Gross.

[trwi7]

the case could still be made that Gwynn should in all cases play over Gross, because he is a young developing player who needs to be given a chance to blossom

I'll respond to the rest of the point later but this stuck out to me reading it.

I agree which is why I absolutely HATE carrying 6 outfielders. Either Gross should be in the minors so we don't have such a crowded outfield or Gwynn should be in the minors getting everyday playing time.

This is why I was angry when Rottino didn't make the team.

1. We could've used another RH bat off the bench

2. He can play multiple positions.

3. He's 27 so he's entering his prime and isn't going to have potential like Gwynn could possibly have (of course we won't know this because apparently sitting on the bench in the majors is better for your development than playing everyday in the minors.)

[whatthe_buck!?]

I absolutely HATE carrying 6 outfielders. Gross should be in the minors so we don't have such a crowded outfield

We could've used another RH bat off the bench

I agree wholeheartedly on both of these points. One other possibility that I think a non-braindead manager would have tinkered with, as kind of a alternative to bringing up Rottino (not that I disagree), is for the time being to bring in Hall from the outfield to play second until Weeks returns. Look, I know how serious Melvin is about forging Hall into the permanent centerfielder, but we are in a serious short-term bind here with Weeks being injured and I personally think Hall is an intelligent guy, not some idiot whose development as a centerfielder will be dropped back to square one because of a couple of games in the infield. Call me crazy if you want, but I really think most other managers would have tried this by now to make more room for Hart/Gwynn in the outfield while at the same time making it unnecessary to start Graffanino.

[whatthe_buck!?]

Two things you wrote that I should respond to.

He's 27 so he's entering his prime

I have to stop you right there. Most people would agree that, for a good to great player, 27-29 is generally the time when their combination of physical and mental abilities are highest, but Gross is a #2 or #3 reserve outfielder. For guys like him, 27-29 is just the second stage of their sh*tty journeyman careers.

like Gwynn could possibly have (of course we won't know this because apparently sitting on the bench in the majors is better for your development than playing everyday in the minors.)

The problem with these options for Gwynn is that they shouldn't be the only two. With Yost's managing, it seems like the choice is clearcut. Obviously if Gwynn can only be an occational pinch hitter, I want him in the minors playing every damn day. But the other option is what I think Yost should be doing, and that is a Hart/Gwynn RF platoon where Hart would bat leadoff against lefties and Gwynn would bat leadoff against righties, at least until Weeks returns (if it works, continue doing it for the rest of this season). Also, on days that you want to give Hall a blow, you could start Gwynn in center. To me, these two actions in concert would deliver more than enough at bats to justify keeping Gwynn in the majors.

[trwi7]

But the other option is what should Yost should be doing, and that is a Hart/Gwynn RF platoon where Hart would bat leadoff against lefties and Gwynn would bat leadoff against righties, at least until Weeks returns (if it works, continue doing it for the rest of this season). Also, on days that you want to give Hall a blow, you could start Gwynn in center. To me, these two actions in concert would deliver more than enough at bats to justify keeping Gwynn in the majors.

I don't agree with that at all. Hart is only 25 and needs to play everyday and when he has played everyday he's played well. His OBP is up over .370.

[whatthe_buck!?]

I don't agree with that at all. Hart is only 25 and needs to play everyday and when he has played everyday he's played well. His OBP is up over .370.

So you're saying that Hart clearly needs to start everyday because he is less than 26 with an OBP of over .370? Have you not just described Tony Gwynn?

And to your point that a leadoff platoon of Gwynn and Hart is a terrible idea because it would cut down on the playing time of Hart I would say to you that you are simply stuck in the Yost mindset; there seems to me to be no good reason why, in games when we are facing a righty and thus Gwynn would be leading off, you couldn't start Hart as well. That is to say only if he was swinging a hot enough bat to justify sitting Mench, but he has been, so that wouldn't be an issue. Like the idea better now?

Anyway, all this is beside the point. The Gwynn/Hart platoon might be a bad idea (I don't think so, but it's absolutely possible). What isn't possible, is that you are right about Gross vs. Gwynn, and after all that is what we are now discussing. There is no way to know if the Gwynn/Hart platoon is a good idea until it is tried, and although it seems to me to be the perfect solution to our leadoff problem (you will admit that it's better than leading off Counsell), we can not know that because it hasn't been tried.

Just for fun, however, I thought I'd post each guy's splits:

Tony Gwynn against righties- BA .294 OBP .368 SLG .353 OPS .721

Cory Hart against lefties- BA .304 OBP .409 SLG .536 OPS .945

[trwi7]

So you're saying that Hart clearly needs to start everyday because he is less than 26 with an OBP of over .370? Have you not just described Tony Gwynn?

Except Gwynn doesn't have the minor league track record Hart does. Hart has hit for better average, OBP, SLG%, OPS, HR, RBI's better stolen base percentage in the minors than Gwynn. Hart was named MVP of the PCL a couple years ago.

Tony Gwynn against righties- BA .294 OBP .368 SLG .353 OPS .721

Last point.

Corey Hart vs righties- .288/.356/.413/.769 so why exactly should Gwynn start over Hart against righties?

[whatthe_buck!?]

Except Gwynn doesn't have the minor league track record Hart does. Hart has hit for better average, OBP, SLG%, OPS, HR, RBI's better stolen base percentage in the minors than Gwynn. Hart was named MVP of the PCL a couple years ago.

I don't know what to say other than to ask you how in the hell this became a Hart vs. Gwynn argument. This was about Gross vs. Gwynn. I will say, however, that it is a good idea for you to try to change your argument to Gwynn vs Hart because you could actually win that one. If you want to argue about my suggestion of a Hart/Gwynn leadoff platoon, please read my posts in their entirety before you respond to them, because if you had you would know that the argument you made in reply was not valid to the point I was making. I said this-

And to your point that a leadoff platoon of Gwynn and Hart is a terrible idea because it would cut down on the playing time of Hart I would say to you that you are simply stuck in the Yost mindset; there seems to me to be no good reason why, in games when we are facing a righty and thus Gwynn would be leading off, you couldn't start Hart as well. That is to say only if he was swinging a hot enough bat to justify sitting Mench, but he has been, so that wouldn't be an issue. Like the idea better now?

I wrote that with the specific intent to make sure that no one could extract from my suggestion any interpretation perceived by anyone as advocating a drop in Hart's playing time, which I knew could then spark a Hart vs. Gwynn debate. The only reason I listed their splits was to show that they could make a pretty kick-a*ss platoon, not to compare them to each other. If I had wanted to do that I would have listed both their batting averages against the same kind of pitcher. I thought that would be clear. I guess maybe I should have stated "this is not a comparison" but I thought that was clear because of the stats that I used.

[whatthe_buck!?]

This is probably a bad move considering I didn't want have a Gwynn vs Hart debate, but it does feed into my original reason for posting on this thread, and that was because I saw you making a vehement argument for something that was so blatantly in opposition to the facts you were using to support it that it was borderline ridiculous. This is not true to the same degree that it was in the Gwynn/Gross debate, but it is a fallacy of same category, so I can't help but mention it. You said this-

Last point.

Corey Hart vs righties- .288/.356/.413/.769 so why exactly should Gwynn start over Hart against righties?

You have his stats right, but now lets put them side by side with Gwynn's stats against righties-
Hart- .288/.356/.413/.756
Gwynn- .294/.368/.353/.721

So this season against righties Gwynn has been better hitter than Hart by 8 points, better than Hart at getting on base by twelve points, has put up a lower slugging % by 50 points, and has a lower OPS by 34 points (which is, after all, based SLG/OBP so it makes sense that it is also higher for Hart who had a bigger lead in SLG than Gwynn had in OBP).

And yet you have the gall to demand that I explain to you why Gwynn should start over Hart against righties? Couldn't I be asking you that very question in reverse? Remember, we are talking about leading off, where the ability to get on base (combined with quickness, which might be a wash when comparing these two on account of the 6'5'' Hart's improbable speed) is more important than the ability to hit for power (and there is not nearly as big a difference in power between these two when you just compare their slugging against righties).

Like I said, I don't think I can win a debate when it comes to who the better player is if I have to argue for Gwynn over Hart. Maybe that will change when Gwynn starts to get some significant playing time, but I can't right now. But if you try and act like I am obviously wrong -such as in this case of who the better hitter is against righties- when the facts don't justify your level of assurance, I won't hesitate to call you out.