Game #16: NUGGETS (10-6) @ LAC (7-8) MON 11/27—7:30 PM, NBA-TV

[nickhx2]

weirdly this loss hasn't affected me as much as others have in the past, despite me knowing it probably is one of the worst ones you'll see over the course of many years, given the obvious context and factors.

i mean i KNOW, right? but maybe i'm just more at peace with it cause i kinda expected bad things to happen. i kinda expected that a team of 4 high-powered stars (depending on how you define them), was gonna likely feel they could mail it in. and then on top of that, i kinda expected that the guys around them were gonna feel like with the top 4, they could mail it in, too. it's just human nature, i think, and we see this kind of stuff in sports all the time where a huge dog just plays way over their head and gives the other team a big run for their money, before (usually) running out of gas.

and on top of that, this is a team that really still hasn't quite figured out what the hell they're supposed to be yet, and everyone's kinda still in flux. and obviously that's not to excuse the effort, but if there was ever a time to have a buncha role players run amok over this team, it's now.

but it still wasn't supposed to be like that, because superior talent typically just does its thing, especially in a sport like the NBA. and so this kinda points to something a bit unseemly that i prefer to avoid thinking about, but maybe is just reality: this team's not really a functional team with kawhi/pg/harden/westbrook as the four key guys. and i get why people wanna blame lue - and his small-ball lineups aside, i don't see how people can overly misplace blame on him when it was the players who pretty much did ALL the wrong, low-effort, no-effort things that resulted in this loss - but i dunno, i'm just way more seeing how it's not gonna work than how it is gonna work. like, i'm not gonna say that the start of the season was championship-level special, but it sure felt like a good bit of magic watching westbrook lead the team with his energy, and watching the rest of the team feel energized off of that, and swirl around that to become cohesive.

but we took that away to trade for harden. and if you take away westbrook's dynamism, then i think you also take away his energy and effect on the team. and we likely swapped out something that this team had been yearning for, for years: something that was simply not going to be fulfilled by kawhi/PG. now we instead have harden's nonchalance to show for it, and while this team gains from his offensive genius, lowering the energy might be the worst possible thing this team could do to itself, given who kawhi and paul george are.

i realize we are all just fans but i think the majority of NBA fan-dom had legit skepticism over the move, and now here we are: feeling lost and unsure of what's to come.

not a great spot. not a great feeling.

[MartinToVaught]

"Superior talent finds a way" is one of those slogans that sounds right on paper. Then you watch the games and it's usually the best-constructed/coached teams winning and the teams that impulsively trade a decade's worth of draft picks for big names with no concern for fit imploding.

[Scoundreldays]

While firing Ty won't magically fix everything, he's definitely not guilt-free either. But is Brian Shaw the answer? Does Coach Bud come aboard mid-season and turn it all around? Highly unlikely.

Are the stars just a really bad fit and/or on a rapid decline?

For once guys are healthy. They looked good before the trade. Flashes here and there since. Fit may be an issue but Lue won’t try anything else. He’s not shaking the whole tree just the same branches over and over thinking it’ll click one day. Guys still don’t seem to understand their roles. That’s a coaching issue not the players not caring enough. Really makes you wonder what the hell they all talk about.

When the same thing isn’t working you try something different. Do I think Brown would have put Jordan in his place? No. Do I think Miller or Primo is going to shut down Curry? No. But we got some young guys who offer some different things and are hungry. They’re fearless and just go out and play. They don’t overthink everything. But that can lead to mistakes and you can’t have that. All that talk about youth and athleticism was just that.

I don’t think Shaw would take the reins. It would be Dan Craig who I like. Forgot about Bud. It doesn’t matter though. Ballmer has proven he’ll shuffle the players deck but not the coaching one. And they’re too afraid of Lue running to the Lakers.

I mean I don't think a coaching change will fix this 100% but what's the fear of him going to Lakers. I doubt he could do much better than Ham.

[donemilio21]

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honestly, F that. Dribble the ball, ISO play, shoot a 3. That's what Ty wants because there is no coaching involved, then if you lose your excuse is simply "3s weren't going in tonight"

[playaloc916]

I missed the game, but wow... Just when you think the team is starting to figure things out after a nice game against the Mavs, then this happens...

Next game is against the Kings. I'm hoping the team plays inspired ball to redeem themselves, but I'm not counting on it...

[MartinToVaught]

then if you lose your excuse is simply "3s weren't going in tonight"

"It's a make or miss league."

[nickhx2]

I missed the game, but wow... Just when you think the team is starting to figure things out after a nice game against the Mavs, then this happens...

Next game is against the Kings. I'm hoping the team plays inspired ball to redeem themselves, but I'm not counting on it...

i'd expect them to show up for sure, if not because of this loss, then for the fact that the kings will likely have guys that are "worth" getting up for lol

[Wammy Giveaway]

"Superior talent finds a way" is one of those slogans that sounds right on paper. Then you watch the games and it's usually the best-constructed/coached teams winning and the teams that impulsively trade a decade's worth of draft picks for big names with no concern for fit imploding.

I normally don't say this, but welcome back Martin. I was a little worried you got suspended or something. You never actually reply to me or anything on any of my topics directly, but I do appreciate your passion and sense of urgency. I think you gotta keep posting that same energy regardless of outcome; win, lose, it don't matter. Do it in the name of competitiveness. Clippers would rather look cute than be gusty, so your passion is sorely needed in this Ultimatum Killer Kombat season.

[Clemenza]

I honesty doubt a new coach could fix this. And first we would have to know how much the front office's hands are in the mix. Is Lue not allowed to play Bones, Kobe, and Coffey outside of garbage minutes? Was Harden forced unto Lue and his staff and he has to make it work no matter what? Not to mention it is looking like "Russ to the bench" was a front office/coaches decision but lets word it differently and say Russ went to Lue to come off the bench so everyone comes out looking like a team player in all of this. Would a new coach be able to sit one or two of the stars if they play like sh*t on a certain night or over a course of consecutive games?

I'm not necessarily backing Lue but before we scream out for a new coach what would he actually be able to do to turn the team around. Plus it has to be a well known guy that these old fossils respect and not be a pushover. Phjl Jackson had assistant coaches in Kobe Bryant and MJ to rally the troops and keep teammates focused and in line. We don't have that type of leadership over here.

[KL2]

If Lue is just following orders then that’s the worst offense ever. He’s just a yes man collecting a paycheck until they fire him. If he’s not leading then why expect any of the players to?

[wakelaunch1]

UGH.

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[Wammy Giveaway]

I honesty doubt a new coach could fix this. And first we would have to know how much the front office's hands are in the mix. Is Lue not allowed to play Bones, Kobe, and Coffey outside of garbage minutes? Was Harden forced unto Lue and his staff and he has to make it work no matter what? Not to mention it is looking like "Russ to the bench" was a front office/coaches decision but lets word it differently and say Russ went to Lue to come off the bench so everyone comes out looking like a team player in all of this. Would a new coach be able to sit one or two of the stars if they play like sh*t on a certain night or over a course of consecutive games?

Keep in mind, Lawrence Frank used to be a coach, not just assistant. As head coach, he managed New Jersey Nets (2004-09) and Detroit Pistons (2011-13). All of his playoff success were with Nets... never got past the 2nd round though (three out of four times). So yeah, never made playoffs with Pistons.

I also think having to give up K.J. Martin in that Harden trade may have played a part in their dysfunction. Frank coached his father. Another example of "personal emotions getting in the way of business."

[MartinToVaught]

Is Lue not allowed to play Bones, Kobe, and Coffey outside of garbage minutes?

I have zero confidence in the FO either, but... why would they trade for Bones, reach for Kobe in the draft, and re-sign Coffey, and then turn around and tell the coach he's not allowed to play any of them? That makes no sense even for Frank.

Lue has a documented pattern of refusing to play anyone under 30. He was fired in Cleveland because, when they were trying to tank and rebuild post-LeBron, he refused to stop playing George Hill, Korver and JR over the younger players. In true Lue fashion, he didn't learn and remains hellbent on doing it his way. This is on him, not Frank.

I'm not necessarily backing Lue but before we scream out for a new coach what would he actually be able to do to turn the team around.

I think there's way too many problems beyond the coach for this year's team to be salvageable no matter what. But it's a matter of principle for me. Lue should have been fired after blowing the play-in games. He really should have been fired after last year. It's maddening that we're sitting here watching and hearing the same old BS again.

This franchise needs to start holding coaches to a standard instead of giving near-unlimited job security to generationally awful coaches. Really, what this franchise needs is accountability from top to bottom. Nothing will ever improve until mediocrity stops being acceptable.

[Scoundreldays]

I missed the game, but wow... Just when you think the team is starting to figure things out after a nice game against the Mavs, then this happens...

Next game is against the Kings. I'm hoping the team plays inspired ball to redeem themselves, but I'm not counting on it...

Kings play at a very fast pace. Clippers struggle hard against quick Athletic teams

[nickhx2]

I honesty doubt a new coach could fix this. And first we would have to know how much the front office's hands are in the mix. Is Lue not allowed to play Bones, Kobe, and Coffey outside of garbage minutes? Was Harden forced unto Lue and his staff and he has to make it work no matter what? Not to mention it is looking like "Russ to the bench" was a front office/coaches decision but lets word it differently and say Russ went to Lue to come off the bench so everyone comes out looking like a team player in all of this. Would a new coach be able to sit one or two of the stars if they play like sh*t on a certain night or over a course of consecutive games?

I'm not necessarily backing Lue but before we scream out for a new coach what would he actually be able to do to turn the team around. Plus it has to be a well known guy that these old fossils respect and not be a pushover. Phjl Jackson had assistant coaches in Kobe Bryant and MJ to rally the troops and keep teammates focused and in line. We don't have that type of leadership over here.

i think i agree with a good bit of this. when it comes to coaching i kinda prefer not to be as critical or as judgmental if i can avoid it, because being a coach involves SO many things behind the scenes, and as fans we clearly barely even know enough to process what happens on the court from the players in an objective manner, WITH actual game tape.

like some things can be attributed to the coach. and some things can't. and some things we literally have no way of knowing, yet people still do so. i've given up on arguing some of those points because i think people just want to vent and don't really know how to process who to attribute blame to, but it also makes discussion of some of these points kinda useless.

anyway, i'm not necessarily backing lue, either. and i mean if we go back to last season i'm pretty sure i was the loudest guy out there bashing on him and hoping we'd move on. this time around, i am somewhat confident (though less after last night lol) that we shouldn't, because

A: we don't necessarily have better alternatives sitting on the bench (ironically in the way that lue was when blatt got fired with the cavs)

B: my bigger post earlier was kinda all about the whole idea that the team might just be inherently broken, and you can bring the greatest coaching minds to the table but they won't be able to fix what seems to be missing - a complete lack of joy.

(as an aside, i wish i elaborated on that idea more because it was the crux of what i was getting at with trading for harden and pushing russ to the bench. the team sold its soul for the potential with harden, but it came also at the very high risk of sapping the joy from the team, which is perhaps the last missing ingredient to make the team finally GO. obviously subjective, but i've never had joy watching james harden play and it's not hard for me to imagine he deflates that on any team he's on. anyway)

and i'm not certainly not saying that where we're at now is because of lue's saying or not saying a thing, but one thing i was kinda hoping lue would do is explicitly state "yeah we're trading for james harden, but this is russell westbrook's locker room and this is his team," - just to put it out there that there's a guy that everyone can trust to be vocal and look to, because holy hell, if there was ever a time for a leader, it's now. but given the trade, as well as moving russ to the bench, why would the team feel like it needs to follow russ (or anyone) as their guiding light?

it's too bad and i just wonder if the whole thing stinks enough that we may just need to make a dramatic move before deadline.

[nickhx2]

anyway, tons of season left, kawhi might just be starting slow and isn't actually washed and his aggression last night was a good sign, PG had possibly one of the worst games of his career you'll ever see and he's otherwise been lighting it up, james harden still getting into game shape and eventually will remember he's james harden and should shoot about 5 times as much as he currently is, mason plumlee will come back letting theis join the rotation as a PF, if we had the choice of losing this game and winning against better teams that's better cause you can build on that, this is the kind of thing that can perhaps get the right guys to do some soul searching, if things look bleak, we prob make a trade, and if things look super bleak we blow it up and get a buncha assets in return, team's really good at finding diamonds in the rough so it wouldn't take us too long to turn things around and it'd be fun to watch a bones/kobe/whoever young core find themselves, ballmer's richer than pretty much everyone, and new arena

yadda yadda yadda

[esqtvd]

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[wakelaunch1]

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Bones was better in his role without Harden. With Harden its a disaster for him to play with him, Powell, and Harden. Its like watching a train wreck where nobody plays defense at all and everyone just chucks their shot.

Bones with Powell, Plumlee, PG, and Batum was pretty good.

[Clemenza]

Is Lue not allowed to play Bones, Kobe, and Coffey outside of garbage minutes?

I have zero confidence in the FO either, but... why would they trade for Bones, reach for Kobe in the draft, and re-sign Coffey, and then turn around and tell the coach he's not allowed to play any of them? That makes no sense even for Frank.

Lue has a documented pattern of refusing to play anyone under 30. He was fired in Cleveland because, when they were trying to tank and rebuild post-LeBron, he refused to stop playing George Hill, Korver and JR over the younger players. In true Lue fashion, he didn't learn and remains hellbent on doing it his way. This is on him, not Frank.

I'm not necessarily backing Lue but before we scream out for a new coach what would he actually be able to do to turn the team around.

I think there's way too many problems beyond the coach for this year's team to be salvageable no matter what. But it's a matter of principle for me. Lue should have been fired after blowing the play-in games. He really should have been fired after last year. It's maddening that we're sitting here watching and hearing the same old BS again.

This franchise needs to start holding coaches to a standard instead of giving near-unlimited job security to generationally awful coaches. Really, what this franchise needs is accountability from top to bottom. Nothing will ever improve until mediocrity stops being acceptable.

I'm not saying Lue isn't allowed to play the kids per say, but there has to be something in play because Lue seemed to like Bones and Kobe and for them to literally be shelved is off and weird asf. Its probably more along the lines of the locker room turning upside down if Bones plays or takes minutes from Russ, Norm, or Harden and Kobe taking PJ's minutes. I guess its basically keeping peace on that end even if it brings the team down in play and spirit.

Lue was in a really bad spot in Cleveland when Bron bolted for the Lakers. He played some youth mixed in with the older guys but ownership wanted a 100% full blown tank job which isn't going to work with a guy like Lue. Its the same thing Detroit is facing now. Hiring and paying a boatload of money to Monty Williams when you're not a team that's aiming for a championship and have now lost 12 games in a row. Should've hired a developmental coach like Kenny Atkinson and go from there with a young squad like they have.

[esqtvd]

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