BACK TO THE BRONX: TOR @ NYY. Thur., April 26 @ 7:05 p.m. ET

[cmaff051]

what 5 blowout games? even when we were losing by more than 3pints, villone helped the team to stay in the game. In those games we ended coming back within 2-3pts.

Man, I am not going to go through every single game and tell you. You find out yourself. The fact is, he pitched in 5 games where the final score differential was greater than 3.

I give you facts and more facts and then you just ignore them. You are impossible to debate with. If you can't see that Torre picks his favorites out of the bullpen and then burns them out, then I quite frankly have to question whether or not you watch the games. Do you? Or do you just look at the box scores?

I am just going to ask an honest question, and then I'm done with this debate, and I'd appreciate if you would just cut the B.S. and answer it instead of avoiding it: Do you think Torre effectively manages his bullpen?

[ccvle]

why are you looking at the final scores? look at he scores when villone came in. You bet I looked at every single game, and I found only 1 or 2 games where maybe he shouldn't have pitched. I see no 5 Games. There weren't even 5 blow out games when villone came in in the month of august.

[ccvle]

I know I watch my games, I dont know about you. I tell you that Villone didn't pitched in any useless games, and you go out and tell me that villone pitched in so many blowout games.

[ccvle]

8/1/2006 4-1
8/2/2006 x
8/4/2006 4-4
8/5/2006 0-3
8/8/2006 4-4
8/9/2006 x
8/11/2006 4-6
8/13/2006 x
8/15/2006 1-3
8/16/2006 1-3
8/17/2006 2-4
8/18/2006 7-4
8/20/2006 3-3
8/22/2006 5-5
8/25/2006 2-3
8/26/2006 7-9
8/30/2006 3-2

14 games were less than 3pts when villone came in. Torre probably didnt have to use villone on 8/2/06 when the yanks were leading 7-0. On 8-9-06, villone came in when yanks were leading 7-2 but two on and no out. on 8-13-06, Villone came in when the yanks were 5-1, but 4 innings left to play.

So Please, show me when did villone pitched in useless or blowout games?

[ccvle]

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I give you facts and more facts and then you just ignore them. You are impossible to debate with. If you can't see that Torre picks his favorites

what favorites? torre simply picks those who he can trust. Torre used Villone,proctor and Mo the most last season. who else did you trust more than these three?

and what facts are you talking about.

[Pharmcat]

shouldnt we be discussing this year and how screwed this team is?

[34Celtic]

cmaff you should change your picture to my opinion on Torre sucks. The guy has NOTHING TO WORK WITH IN HIS BULLPEN. His starters are not going past 5 or 6 innings so he is forced to use these guys. Even last year Wright and Lidle (RIP) couldnt make it out of the 6th. Give him starters that can go 7 innings like during the Dynasty years and he wont overuse them. You're missing the boat on this. Every pitcher you bring up has been from the last few years when we haven't had the depth in our rotation

[34Celtic]

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many blowouts? Nope. We didn't blow people out everday or get blowed.

out of the 17games that villone pitched in august, 15games were less than 3pts when villone came in.

In baseball its runs, buddy.

[34Celtic]

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TKF you know under Torre he'll never see the 7th inning this season, I was impressed I think Hughes's hype is for real but dammit when will the Yankee brass understand Torre is not the guy for him and take the kid gloves off before he starts believing he's Moose and not pass the 5 - 7th IP role.

Do you understand the Yankee's brass has set Hughes up with a pitch count? Some of you people do not understand the least bit of what's going on.

[34Celtic]

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Why did Villone have to pitch in all 17 of those games? Why couldn't anybody else? Why couldn't somebody pitch his 5 blowout games? Why not Myers? Why did Villone pitch in the 9th innings of blowouts occasionally?

I don't know if you guys realize that Villone has been a strater in his career. He volunteered to start a couple games for us last year. He was a starter in college. I don't think 80 innings would jeapordize his health

IP by year:

1999 : 142.7
2000 : 141.0
2001 : 114.7
2002 : 93.0
2003 : 106.7
2004 : 117.0
2005 : 64.0
2006 : 80.3

Get a clue, I can't believe you are really trying to blame Torre for a guy's arm. Villone has only had an ERA below 4.00 once since '98

[cmaff051]

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Why did Villone have to pitch in all 17 of those games? Why couldn't anybody else? Why couldn't somebody pitch his 5 blowout games? Why not Myers? Why did Villone pitch in the 9th innings of blowouts occasionally?

I don't know if you guys realize that Villone has been a strater in his career. He volunteered to start a couple games for us last year. He was a starter in college. I don't think 80 innings would jeapordize his health

IP by year:

1999 : 142.7
2000 : 141.0
2001 : 114.7
2002 : 93.0
2003 : 106.7
2004 : 117.0
2005 : 64.0
2006 : 80.3

Get a clue, I can't believe you are really trying to blame Torre for a guy's arm. Villone has only had an ERA below 4.00 once since '98

Get a clue, I can't believe you are trying to rationalize 22 innings in a month as a reliever with 17 appearances.

[34Celtic]

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Get a clue, I can't believe you are trying to rationalize 22 innings in a month as a reliever with 17 appearances.

I can't believe you are trying to rationalize that we would be better off WITH RON VILLONE AT 100%!!!!!!!!!!!

In '96 Rivera threw 107 innings
In '96 and '97 Nelson threw over 70 innings
In '98 Stanton threw over 70
In '99 Grimsley led the team with 75
In '00 Grimsley threw 95 (4 starts) and Nelson and Stanton threw over 70
In '01 Stanton and Rivera threw 80, Mendoza over 100 (this is where our starting pitching starts to weaken...notice a trend
I
n '02 Karsay 88, Mendoza 91, Stanton 78
In '03 we had 4 starters throw over 200 Innings, no reliever was overused.
In '04 Quantrill 95, Gordon 89
In '05 I'm not gonna even bother looking at because we used abnout 732233 pitchers
In '06 Our 4th and 5th pitchers struggled to get through the 6th inning. Our bullpen was taxed because of it.

It DOESNT TAKE A GENIOUS TO FIGURE OUT THAT IF YOUR STARTERS CANNOT GO DEEP INTO THE BALLGAME OR ARE INJURED, YOUR BULLPEN IS GOING TO PAY THE PRICE!!!!!

[cmaff051]

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Get a clue, I can't believe you are trying to rationalize 22 innings in a month as a reliever with 17 appearances.

I can't believe you are trying to rationalize that we would be better off WITH RON VILLONE AT 100%!!!!!!!!!!!

In '96 Rivera threw 107 innings
In '96 and '97 Nelson threw over 70 innings
In '98 Stanton threw over 70
In '99 Grimsley led the team with 75
In '00 Grimsley threw 95 (4 starts) and Nelson and Stanton threw over 70
In '01 Stanton and Rivera threw 80, Mendoza over 100 (this is where our starting pitching starts to weaken...notice a trend
I
n '02 Karsay 88, Mendoza 91, Stanton 78
In '03 we had 4 starters throw over 200 Innings, no reliever was overused.
In '04 Quantrill 95, Gordon 89
In '05 I'm not gonna even bother looking at because we used abnout 732233 pitchers
In '06 Our 4th and 5th pitchers struggled to get through the 6th inning. Our bullpen was taxed because of it.

It DOESNT TAKE A GENIOUS TO FIGURE OUT THAT IF YOUR STARTERS CANNOT GO DEEP INTO THE BALLGAME OR ARE INJURED, YOUR BULLPEN IS GOING TO PAY THE PRICE!!!!!

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Joe Torre often yanks his starters early. This is nothing new with him. He yanks his starters from games early than he has to all the time.

[34Celtic]

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Joe Torre often yanks his starters early. This is nothing new with him. He yanks his starters from games early than he has to all the time.

He won't yank a starter early if he is doing a good job. A lot of times, like with Jaret Wright, the guy is all over the strike zone and reaches 100 pitches in the 5th or 6th inning. When he reaches 100 pitches he starts to labor. Doesn't take a genius to figure this out. Wang on the other hand can go 7 or 8 innings and not reach 100 pitches. Same with Pettitte. The starters who have been successful under Torre easily reach 200 innings per season without injury, those who aren't successful do not, reason being their high pitch count and high walk totals.

[cmaff051]

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He won't yank a starter early if he is doing a good job. A lot of times, like with Jaret Wright, the guy is all over the strike zone and reaches 100 pitches in the 5th or 6th inning. When he reaches 100 pitches he starts to labor. Doesn't take a genius to figure this out. Wang on the other hand can go 7 or 8 innings and not reach 100 pitches. Same with Pettitte. The starters who have been successful under Torre easily reach 200 innings per season without injury, those who aren't successful do not, reason being their high pitch count and high walk totals.

bull. I remember in Game 1 of the 2006 ALDS when he pulled Wang after 93 pitches when he was CRUISING. He was cruising!!! After 93 pitches!! And he put in Mike Myers and he gave up a home run!

He took out our ace last year after 93 pitches when he was cruising. Don't give me no Jaret Wright excuses. He pulls even his good starters out early.

[34Celtic]

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bull. I remember in Game 1 of the 2006 ALDS when he pulled Wang after 93 pitches when he was CRUISING. He was cruising!!! After 93 pitches!! And he put in Mike Myers and he gave up a home run!

He took out our ace last year after 93 pitches when he was cruising. Don't give me no Jaret Wright excuses. He pulls even his good starters out early.

This has to be some sort of sick joke right?!?!?!??! We were up 7-3 at this point, Myers came in because he is a lefty specialist, he let up a homerun to Granderson, a lefty hitter. Torre sticks to a system that works. All year it was Proctor, Farnsworth, Mo. He went to Myers because Wang wasn't going out there for the 8th anyways. Against lefty's Granderson hit .218 last year, .274 against righties. He also hit 1 HR every 29 AB's against righties, 1 HR every 36 AB's against lefties last year. Torre had his reasons.

Stop arguing something you cant win.

[cmaff051]

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This has to be some sort of sick joke right?!?!?!??! We were up 7-3 at this point, Myers came in because he is a lefty specialist, he let up a homerun to Granderson, a lefty hitter. Torre sticks to a system that works. All year it was Proctor, Farnsworth, Mo. He went to Myers because Wang wasn't going out there for the 8th anyways. Against lefty's Granderson hit .218 last year, .274 against righties. He also hit 1 HR every 29 AB's against righties, 1 HR every 36 AB's against lefties last year. Torre had his reasons.

Stop arguing something you cant win.

How is this a joke? You are saying that because you know I am right and you are backed into a corner and now you have no legitimate points to debate so now you are going to using the laughing smilie to compensate for your lack of a point.

Cut the B.S. and answer me this question. There is nothing wrong with taking out your ace starting pitcher after 93 pitches when he was cruising in Game 1 of the ALDS?

Nothing wrong at all with taking your starter out after 93 pitches in GAME 1 OF THE ALDS and going to an already overused bullpen at all?

What ever happened to letting your ace making 105-110 pitches. All other managers except for Joey Four Rings do this. They let their aces pitch for 105-110 pitches. But instead Joe Torre overmanages and goes to his bullpen after 93 pitches IN THE ALDS

It is really pointless to debate against you because Joe Torre will always be Joey Four Rings (JFR) to you and he never does anything wrong.

[34Celtic]

You shouldn't be arguing about going to his bullpen too soon. You should be arguing the fact that he didn't bring Wang back in the must win in game 4, the reason that I thought he was going to the bullpen.

[cmaff051]

You shouldn't be arguing about going to his bullpen too soon. You should be arguing the fact that he didn't bring Wang back in the must win in game 4, the reason that I thought he was going to the bullpen.

No, I should be arguing about him going to the bullpen too early. Even if he makes 110 pitches in Game 1, he can still come back in Game 5 and make a start and be just as good.

But Torre decides to pull him after 93 pitches. Idiotic.

And no, I don't blame Joe for not going to him in Game 4. Who was going to pitch Game 5? Jaret Wright. No way. I would have done the same thing Joe did... Wright Game 4, Wang Game 5.

And you still ignore my question, like many of the Joey Four Rings' supporters do.

Nothing wrong at all with taking your starter out after 93 pitches in GAME 1 OF THE ALDS and going to an already overused bullpen when he was just going to pitch in Game 5 anyways?

[NYKnSTILL!]

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Do you understand the Yankee's brass has set Hughes up with a pitch count? Some of you people do not understand the least bit of what's going on.

ok genius how is Hughes suppose to develope arm strength and stamina if he's pulled in the 5th and 6th inning ?

Justice said it perfectly they said Phil is a thoroughbred a work horse who exceeds when he is challenged what's up w/ babying him, a pitch count of 89 -90 com'on bro the pitch count is overrated these days your lucky to get a SP past the 5th inning under Torre this will never happen because a couple of basehits and he's itchin' for the phone already.

Either he has it or not they need to find out all this BS about him getting hurt dude he's 20 years old !!!! he can recover quicker at this rate he might get pass the 90 pitch count at 25 and by then I guess we will be missing the playoffs if it's like that.