Lakers Big Three. Who is your number four?

[stan francisco]

I’d like to argue that we already have a three headed monster. Let’s not kid ourselves about LBJ and AD. They’re still both top ten on offense, as a defensive duo they’re even better.

Let’s not kid ourselves about Reaves, the third wheel. What he did from ASB and out made him the third piece of our big three. It’s also today being reported by Team USA what we all saw with our own eyes in the playoffs — that he’s the real deal.

Fill in the rest with our role players, whom all are poised to potentially claim the fourth spot in terms of importance.

Out of Vando, Vincent, Christie, Reddish, Prince, Lewis, Hachimura, Hayes, Fino; who do you predict as the next most impactful player after our big three?

I say it’s Vando’s defense, but Christie might break through, so might Cam and the rest of them.

[Godfather13]

In order of general competence in being NBA players-
Rui
Vincent
Prince
Russell
Vando
.
.

[dAdo dA dEvil]

I'm picking Rui. Rui is not afraid to shoot and he's got an offensive game. He can shoot the 3, he can over power smaller defenders on the paint, he can attack the basket plus he can also defend. If only Vando can shoot consistently it will be a toss up.

When Rui is hot, he is hot! He can score on consecutive baskets even if he is coming off the bench.

[Up-And-Coming]

It's either Rui or D'Angelo. D'Angelo was a really good regular season player and Rui was a great playoff performer in a limited role. If Rui can build off his playoff performance he would probably edge out D'Angelo but I won't completely rule out D'Angelo just yet.

[Slava]

I don’t understand the undervaluing D’Angelo logic. He’s a bad defender sure but at $19M, a player who can make plays, shoot and create his own shot is excellent when he is a 4th option and you can always rotate him in and out when you need more defense.

Until Rui shows more consistency with the level of play he did in the playoffs, D’Angelo is that 4th guy.

[tamaraw08]

I don’t understand the undervaluing D’Angelo logic. He’s a bad defender sure but at $19M, a player who can make plays, shoot and create his own shot is excellent when he is a 4th option and you can always rotate him in and out when you need more defense.

Until Rui shows more consistency with the level of play he did in the playoffs, D’Angelo is that 4th guy.

I never liked D'Lo bec of his lack of defense, was a meh trade acquisition for me(I wish he had Conley instead) but the guy exceeded my expectations in the regular season and playoffs.... until he completely disappeared against Denver where he shot under 14% from 3 with the Lakers hanging tough and keeping it close in 3 of those 4 games.
For the regular season, I expect the guy to carry the offense bec I anticipate Lebron to either miss at least 20 games early or just chuck 10 3's per game to save his legs for the playoffs.

[Kilroy]

The way teams like this go, you can't always count on the 3rd guy being the 3rd guy each season... It can fluctuate quite a bit... And Reaves is still young... I wouldn't be surprised to see him take a step back this season... Maybe not the whole season, but I think it may be optimistic to call him the 3rd guy out the gate...
I think Rui kind of under-performed for a lot of the season last year... He stepped up in the playoffs... I think because he finally got comfortable... I could see him expanding on that...
And honestly, during the season, D'Lo can pile on points, so he could be the 3rd guy, at least until hopefully, he's traded...

The thing is, these AD/LeBron laker teams seem to have a whole lot of extra factors in decision making, so it's hard to say what the pecking order is going to be... Call it politics if you want, but I always feel like there's at least one odd-man-out each season, who on paper would seem to be better than a couple guys getting regular minutes... So who knows...

But I hope its...
AD
LeBron
Rui
Reaves
Vando

Hayes
Vincent

D'lo will be in the mix somewhere but I'm hoping he's a temp at this point...

[Kilroy]

I don’t understand the undervaluing D’Angelo logic. He’s a bad defender sure but at $19M, a player who can make plays, shoot and create his own shot is excellent when he is a 4th option and you can always rotate him in and out when you need more defense.

Until Rui shows more consistency with the level of play he did in the playoffs, D’Angelo is that 4th guy.

How many disappearing acts in big games does a guy have to have, before he gets devalued? Why did he only get $19M in the first place?
D'Lo contributes, often a lot, in specific (mostly unpredictable) situations... But he's also a massive liability, equally unpredictably...

So where to you put that in the pecking order of a team with post-season aspirations... He's a great regular season asset, but I also get those who would rather see Reaves get those minutes, if for no other reason than heart and energy.

[dockingsched]

Vando will be out of the lineup come playoff time like this past year. He was basically done half way through GSW series.

It’s too easy to figure him out since he’s a non-factor offensively, specially if they intend to give Hayes a role.

[Kilroy]

Vando will be out of the lineup come playoff time like this past year. He was basically done half way through GSW series.

It’s too easy to figure him out since he’s a non-factor offensively, specially if they intend to give Hayes a role.

Yes, because clearly, all we needed was more offense this season... Vando pushed a little too much in the post season, and got into foul trouble early, but there's still not a single reasonable argument for sitting him for Lonnie Walker, who was even worse offensively... Outside of one game in the playoffs, and no where near the presence defensively.

Bottom line, Vando should have played more in the playoffs, because we lost on Defense, not on Offense.

And if the coaching staff thinks Vando play competing roles, we're **** before we begin... Hayes/Rui, maybe...

Vando's more of a long wing defender than a 4... Hays/vando compliment each other defensively, rather than compete...

[dockingsched]

Vando will be out of the lineup come playoff time like this past year. He was basically done half way through GSW series.

It’s too easy to figure him out since he’s a non-factor offensively, specially if they intend to give Hayes a role.

Yes, because clearly, all we needed was more offense this season... Vando pushed a little too much in the post season, and got into foul trouble early, but there's still not a single reasonable argument for sitting him for Lonnie Walker, who was even worse offensively... Outside of one game in the playoffs, and no where near the presence defensively.

Bottom line, Vando should have played more in the playoffs, because we lost on Defense, not on Offense.

And if the coaching staff thinks Vando play competing roles, we're **** before we begin... Hayes/Rui, maybe...

Vando's more of a long wing defender than a 4... Hays/vando compliment each other defensively, rather than compete...

Nah, his defense wasn’t as effective as it was before adjustments were made. Once they figured out his defensive weaknesses, he wasn’t sustainable on the floor.

[stan francisco]

Vando got injured at some point late in the GSW or early DEN series. LBJ was also at limited capacity due to injury late in the post-season.

Vando’s defense is exactly what AD wants to see when he plays C. LBJ is old enough to also fully appreciate some physical D coming from a team mate. That’s one of the things they both love about Reaves. Add a solid three point shot, Vando!


I’m still at a loss for words for D Lo’s no D but I’ve no doubt said it too many times here. He literally plays no-contact basketball, he is the unrivaled king of matador defense, perhaps the worst defensive guard I’ve personally ever watched play in the NBA. For real. Super talented on one end, absolutely useless on the other. Nothing personal, no hate, no hyperbole, simply clear eyed defense focused observation.

Over 82 games, we want to build defensive chemistry which is based on trust… Playing 4 on 5 every time on defense because one guy pretends to care by hiding mid-key-side area every possession is no fun come January. Especially not when the opposing coach goes at D Lo every time down the floor until he’s benched. See Malone, DEN series. It’s demoralizing, detrimental to team defense.

I hope they trade his PnR offense on December 15 to a team who needs that skill sorely. I’d hope we can trade him with a future pick or two for a Tyus Jones level (or near) guard lacking enough PT to feel content staying put.

I’d be cool with going with a big starting five IF Vando can get his three point shot locked in. Perhaps it’s one of the new guys who beats him to it?

PG Reaves
SG Vando
SF LBJ
PF Rui
C AD

… would be a good defensive five.

[SlimShady83]

Lakers have a big 14 on their Roster, just waiting for the 15th?

I'll go with Rui, but If Vando really has grown like they say and hits that corner 3 that he been working on then Vando

[Slava]

I don’t understand the undervaluing D’Angelo logic. He’s a bad defender sure but at $19M, a player who can make plays, shoot and create his own shot is excellent when he is a 4th option and you can always rotate him in and out when you need more defense.

Until Rui shows more consistency with the level of play he did in the playoffs, D’Angelo is that 4th guy.

How many disappearing acts in big games does a guy have to have, before he gets devalued? Why did he only get $19M in the first place?
D'Lo contributes, often a lot, in specific (mostly unpredictable) situations... But he's also a massive liability, equally unpredictably...

So where to you put that in the pecking order of a team with post-season aspirations... He's a great regular season asset, but I also get those who would rather see Reaves get those minutes, if for no other reason than heart and energy.

Well, he's the fourth option and most contending teams should be able to weather their fourth option being inconsistent. I don't think he's in the way of Reaves, who's going to be our third guy and that's a guy we cannot afford being inconsistent alongside an aging Lebron.

[Godfather13]

I don’t understand the undervaluing D’Angelo logic. He’s a bad defender sure but at $19M, a player who can make plays, shoot and create his own shot is excellent when he is a 4th option and you can always rotate him in and out when you need more defense.

Until Rui shows more consistency with the level of play he did in the playoffs, D’Angelo is that 4th guy.

It's certainly a choice to bring up Rui's inconsistency to prop up DLo.

DLo's consistent poor play in the playoffs all but makes him a spare trade chip to me. I hope he proves me wrong, but I also hope he does it on another team.

Essentially, anyone who can be game planned off the court in a series just isn't worth the roster spor for me, which is a feeling that extends to the crowd favourite Vando.

[Kilroy]

Vando will be out of the lineup come playoff time like this past year. He was basically done half way through GSW series.

It’s too easy to figure him out since he’s a non-factor offensively, specially if they intend to give Hayes a role.

Yes, because clearly, all we needed was more offense this season... Vando pushed a little too much in the post season, and got into foul trouble early, but there's still not a single reasonable argument for sitting him for Lonnie Walker, who was even worse offensively... Outside of one game in the playoffs, and no where near the presence defensively.

Bottom line, Vando should have played more in the playoffs, because we lost on Defense, not on Offense.

And if the coaching staff thinks Vando play competing roles, we're **** before we begin... Hayes/Rui, maybe...

Vando's more of a long wing defender than a 4... Hays/vando compliment each other defensively, rather than compete...

Nah, his defense wasn’t as effective as it was before adjustments were made. Once they figured out his defensive weaknesses, he wasn’t sustainable on the floor.

I'd be legit curious what adjustments you saw... The only adjustment I saw affecting Vando's play was the fact that calls started going against him and Hamm having an incredibly short leash with him. He'd get a foul and immediately get pulled... It's hard to be effective like that. Especially as an energy defender...

I agree that the GSW series marked a change... And I also think we were incredibly lucky to get past them, not because they were the better team, but because about 3 games into the series, we seemed to forget what made us the better team... And one of those factors was maximizing Vando's effectiveness on D... I understand maybe he got a little banged up too, so maybe I understand taking the focus off him a little, but still... Hamm seemed to fall back to his old 'small ball/outscore em' mentality and we nearly fumbled that one away... We also completely mismanaged the Denver series... and Vando was a factor there as well...

Reaves and Vando were the primary reasons, along with more intensity and better play from AD, that we were even in the playoffs in the first place... And while Reaves Offense was incredible, I'd say his D and defensive chemistry with AD and Vando, might have been even more impressive... It's no wonder when that started to fall apart and Vando started having trouble staying on the floor, we were cooked...

[Kilroy]

I don’t understand the undervaluing D’Angelo logic. He’s a bad defender sure but at $19M, a player who can make plays, shoot and create his own shot is excellent when he is a 4th option and you can always rotate him in and out when you need more defense.

Until Rui shows more consistency with the level of play he did in the playoffs, D’Angelo is that 4th guy.

How many disappearing acts in big games does a guy have to have, before he gets devalued? Why did he only get $19M in the first place?
D'Lo contributes, often a lot, in specific (mostly unpredictable) situations... But he's also a massive liability, equally unpredictably...

So where to you put that in the pecking order of a team with post-season aspirations... He's a great regular season asset, but I also get those who would rather see Reaves get those minutes, if for no other reason than heart and energy.

Well, he's the fourth option and most contending teams should be able to weather their fourth option being inconsistent. I don't think he's in the way of Reaves, who's going to be our third guy and that's a guy we cannot afford being inconsistent alongside an aging Lebron.

Ok, fair enough... But he's really only a 1 way player, and I don't think many teams can afford a streaky 4th option who also plays no D.

And honestly, we can't afford any of our other options next to LeBron, to be very inconsistent... AD's inconstancy makes us only a borderline playoff team... I agree though that Reeves will likely be a little inconsistent this season, but hopefully he still focuses on both ends of the floor... Because while we can't really afford a lot of inconsistency from our 3rd option, we really can't afford any lack of defensive focus.

Rui was inconsistent until the playoffs, then he was about as consistent as could be expected... He was our 3rd best player for many of those games, despite the hype Reaves (deservedly) gets... He's a vet, so I'm hoping that's now the norm and we don't have to wait another whole season to see it again.

[Godfather13]

Yes, because clearly, all we needed was more offense this season... Vando pushed a little too much in the post season, and got into foul trouble early, but there's still not a single reasonable argument for sitting him for Lonnie Walker, who was even worse offensively... Outside of one game in the playoffs, and no where near the presence defensively.

Bottom line, Vando should have played more in the playoffs, because we lost on Defense, not on Offense.

And if the coaching staff thinks Vando play competing roles, we're **** before we begin... Hayes/Rui, maybe...

Vando's more of a long wing defender than a 4... Hays/vando compliment each other defensively, rather than compete...

Nah, his defense wasn’t as effective as it was before adjustments were made. Once they figured out his defensive weaknesses, he wasn’t sustainable on the floor.

I'd be legit curious what adjustments you saw... The only adjustment I saw affecting Vando's play was the fact that calls started going against him and Hamm having an incredibly short leash with him. He'd get a foul and immediately get pulled... It's hard to be effective like that. Especially as an energy defender...

I agree that the GSW series marked a change... And I also think we were incredibly lucky to get past them, not because they were the better team, but because about 3 games into the series, we seemed to forget what made us the better team... And one of those factors was maximizing Vando's effectiveness on D... I understand maybe he got a little banged up too, so maybe I understand taking the focus off him a little, but still... Hamm seemed to fall back to his old 'small ball/outscore em' mentality and we nearly fumbled that one away... We also completely mismanaged the Denver series... and Vando was a factor there as well...

Reaves and Vando were the primary reasons, along with more intensity and better play from AD, that we were even in the playoffs in the first place... And while Reaves Offense was incredible, I'd say his D and defensive chemistry with AD and Vando, might have been even more impressive... It's no wonder when that started to fall apart and Vando started having trouble staying on the floor, we were cooked...

Grizzlies Series - Vando's primary assignments - Bane(G1) & Ja(G2) were getting whatever they wanted till Ham switched up to playing AD in a really high drop on a low activity poorest shooter on the floor(Tillman), as Lebron switched onto JJJ, to contain Ja basically driving right through Vando right to the bucket. It needs to be said Grizzlies coaching staff made no adjustments to this and just watched the paint dry. And as Ham learnt the the lack of impact he was having on defense + the absolute liability he is to offensive spacing and flow, his minutes regressed each game.

Minutes - 23 > 21, 21 > 19 > 17 > 15

GSW - Kerr adjusted from playing Steph off ball after G1 to putting Steph on ball and exposing Vando's biggest weakness - screen navigation, after which he became useless for the rest of the playoffs, including the Denver series, while Ham didn't get it for like 8 games after it.

Minutes - 25 > 19 > 15 > 11 > 10 > 3

Denver came with a better game plan from the jump and just exposed him on both ends in the same manner with screens & occasionally exploiting him in mismatches in post ups, where he has horrible defensive technique adding to his lack of weight/strength to be ever an average defender.

Minutes - 10, 16, 13, DNP

And this isn't an aberration in the playoffs, Vando has been game planned out of minutes in the two months he spent in the regular season as well if anyone wants to just look at his game logs for his time with the Lakers. For someone who is known to make his bread and butter on the defensive end as a POA defensive specialist, these are massive weaknesses that basically eliminate him from any consideration of even whiffing at being an All NBA level defender -
- Screen Navigation
- Lack of discipline to defend without fouling
- Lack of speed to keep up with faster guards
- Lack of size/strength & technique when he gets switched into post ups - like it or not, this is not the 90s and even James f***ing Harden is a better post up defender than Vando

Given context, I think he's just a slighlty above average defender, who gets a lot more credit than he should on that end because of his high activity play style, ala Pat Bev. Frauds Inc.

[Kilroy]

Nah, his defense wasn’t as effective as it was before adjustments were made. Once they figured out his defensive weaknesses, he wasn’t sustainable on the floor.

I'd be legit curious what adjustments you saw... The only adjustment I saw affecting Vando's play was the fact that calls started going against him and Hamm having an incredibly short leash with him. He'd get a foul and immediately get pulled... It's hard to be effective like that. Especially as an energy defender...

I agree that the GSW series marked a change... And I also think we were incredibly lucky to get past them, not because they were the better team, but because about 3 games into the series, we seemed to forget what made us the better team... And one of those factors was maximizing Vando's effectiveness on D... I understand maybe he got a little banged up too, so maybe I understand taking the focus off him a little, but still... Hamm seemed to fall back to his old 'small ball/outscore em' mentality and we nearly fumbled that one away... We also completely mismanaged the Denver series... and Vando was a factor there as well...

Reaves and Vando were the primary reasons, along with more intensity and better play from AD, that we were even in the playoffs in the first place... And while Reaves Offense was incredible, I'd say his D and defensive chemistry with AD and Vando, might have been even more impressive... It's no wonder when that started to fall apart and Vando started having trouble staying on the floor, we were cooked...

Grizzlies Series - Vando's primary assignments - Bane(G1) & Ja(G2) were getting whatever they wanted till Ham switched up to playing AD in a really high drop on a low activity poorest shooter on the floor(Tillman), as Lebron switched onto JJJ, to contain Ja basically driving right through Vando right to the bucket. It needs to be said Grizzlies coaching staff made no adjustments to this and just watched the paint dry. And as Ham learnt the the lack of impact he was having on defense + the absolute liability he is to offensive spacing and flow, his minutes regressed each game.

Minutes - 23 > 21, 21 > 19 > 17 > 15

GSW - Kerr adjusted from playing Steph off ball after G1 to putting Steph on ball and exposing Vando's biggest weakness - screen navigation, after which he became useless for the rest of the playoffs, including the Denver series, while Ham didn't get it for like 8 games after it.

Minutes - 25 > 19 > 15 > 11 > 10 > 3

Denver came with a better game plan from the jump and just exposed him on both ends in the same manner with screens & occasionally exploiting him in mismatches in post ups, where he has horrible defensive technique adding to his lack of weight/strength to be ever an average defender.

Minutes - 10, 16, 13, DNP

And this isn't an aberration in the playoffs, Vando has been game planned out of minutes in the two months he spent in the regular season as well if anyone wants to just look at his game logs for his time with the Lakers. For someone who is known to make his bread and butter on the defensive end as a POA defensive specialist, these are massive weaknesses that basically eliminate him from any consideration of even whiffing at being an All NBA level defender -
- Screen Navigation
- Lack of discipline to defend without fouling
- Lack of speed to keep up with faster guards
- Lack of size/strength & technique when he gets switched into post ups - like it or not, this is not the 90s and even James f***ing Harden is a better post up defender than Vando

Given context, I think he's just a slighlty above average defender, who gets a lot more credit than he should on that end because of his high activity play style, ala Pat Bev. Frauds Inc.

So we're now saying Vando always sucked on D, but everyone was just duped and bamboozled into thinking he was good?

So why did Kerr and Denver adjust then?

The fact that Hamm had no answer to those adjustments doesn't make Vando a fraud... It makes Hamm one.

[stan francisco]

I'd be legit curious what adjustments you saw... The only adjustment I saw affecting Vando's play was the fact that calls started going against him and Hamm having an incredibly short leash with him. He'd get a foul and immediately get pulled... It's hard to be effective like that. Especially as an energy defender...

I agree that the GSW series marked a change... And I also think we were incredibly lucky to get past them, not because they were the better team, but because about 3 games into the series, we seemed to forget what made us the better team... And one of those factors was maximizing Vando's effectiveness on D... I understand maybe he got a little banged up too, so maybe I understand taking the focus off him a little, but still... Hamm seemed to fall back to his old 'small ball/outscore em' mentality and we nearly fumbled that one away... We also completely mismanaged the Denver series... and Vando was a factor there as well...

Reaves and Vando were the primary reasons, along with more intensity and better play from AD, that we were even in the playoffs in the first place... And while Reaves Offense was incredible, I'd say his D and defensive chemistry with AD and Vando, might have been even more impressive... It's no wonder when that started to fall apart and Vando started having trouble staying on the floor, we were cooked...

Grizzlies Series - Vando's primary assignments - Bane(G1) & Ja(G2) were getting whatever they wanted till Ham switched up to playing AD in a really high drop on a low activity poorest shooter on the floor(Tillman), as Lebron switched onto JJJ, to contain Ja basically driving right through Vando right to the bucket. It needs to be said Grizzlies coaching staff made no adjustments to this and just watched the paint dry. And as Ham learnt the the lack of impact he was having on defense + the absolute liability he is to offensive spacing and flow, his minutes regressed each game.

Minutes - 23 > 21, 21 > 19 > 17 > 15

GSW - Kerr adjusted from playing Steph off ball after G1 to putting Steph on ball and exposing Vando's biggest weakness - screen navigation, after which he became useless for the rest of the playoffs, including the Denver series, while Ham didn't get it for like 8 games after it.

Minutes - 25 > 19 > 15 > 11 > 10 > 3

Denver came with a better game plan from the jump and just exposed him on both ends in the same manner with screens & occasionally exploiting him in mismatches in post ups, where he has horrible defensive technique adding to his lack of weight/strength to be ever an average defender.

Minutes - 10, 16, 13, DNP

And this isn't an aberration in the playoffs, Vando has been game planned out of minutes in the two months he spent in the regular season as well if anyone wants to just look at his game logs for his time with the Lakers. For someone who is known to make his bread and butter on the defensive end as a POA defensive specialist, these are massive weaknesses that basically eliminate him from any consideration of even whiffing at being an All NBA level defender -
- Screen Navigation
- Lack of discipline to defend without fouling
- Lack of speed to keep up with faster guards
- Lack of size/strength & technique when he gets switched into post ups - like it or not, this is not the 90s and even James f***ing Harden is a better post up defender than Vando

Given context, I think he's just a slighlty above average defender, who gets a lot more credit than he should on that end because of his high activity play style, ala Pat Bev. Frauds Inc.

So we're now saying Vando always sucked on D, but everyone was just duped and bamboozled into thinking he was good?

So why did Kerr and Denver adjust then?

The fact that Hamm had no answer to those adjustments doesn't make Vando a fraud... It makes Hamm one.

I think Vando got injured in the GSW series. Prior, he played Ariza level defense from 2008.

Coach Malone completely punked Ham. Ham needs a senior assistant, a previous head coach or a Rondo.

Ja runs through anyone in the history of the game. Can’t blame Vando too much for not single handedly stopping the GSW pick n roll. Murray and Jokic are hard to stop. You’re talking about historically great players.

I’ll look at D Lo, not Vando for our most immediate defensive individual improvements needed.


Game 1, not injured:

Watch on YouTube

Next game injury, 2nd quarter. After this, Vando didn’t impress in the playoffs. No wonder.

Watch on YouTube