Lakers Big Three. Who is your number four?

[dockingsched]

I'd be legit curious what adjustments you saw... The only adjustment I saw affecting Vando's play was the fact that calls started going against him and Hamm having an incredibly short leash with him. He'd get a foul and immediately get pulled... It's hard to be effective like that. Especially as an energy defender...

I agree that the GSW series marked a change... And I also think we were incredibly lucky to get past them, not because they were the better team, but because about 3 games into the series, we seemed to forget what made us the better team... And one of those factors was maximizing Vando's effectiveness on D... I understand maybe he got a little banged up too, so maybe I understand taking the focus off him a little, but still... Hamm seemed to fall back to his old 'small ball/outscore em' mentality and we nearly fumbled that one away... We also completely mismanaged the Denver series... and Vando was a factor there as well...

Reaves and Vando were the primary reasons, along with more intensity and better play from AD, that we were even in the playoffs in the first place... And while Reaves Offense was incredible, I'd say his D and defensive chemistry with AD and Vando, might have been even more impressive... It's no wonder when that started to fall apart and Vando started having trouble staying on the floor, we were cooked...

Grizzlies Series - Vando's primary assignments - Bane(G1) & Ja(G2) were getting whatever they wanted till Ham switched up to playing AD in a really high drop on a low activity poorest shooter on the floor(Tillman), as Lebron switched onto JJJ, to contain Ja basically driving right through Vando right to the bucket. It needs to be said Grizzlies coaching staff made no adjustments to this and just watched the paint dry. And as Ham learnt the the lack of impact he was having on defense + the absolute liability he is to offensive spacing and flow, his minutes regressed each game.

Minutes - 23 > 21, 21 > 19 > 17 > 15

GSW - Kerr adjusted from playing Steph off ball after G1 to putting Steph on ball and exposing Vando's biggest weakness - screen navigation, after which he became useless for the rest of the playoffs, including the Denver series, while Ham didn't get it for like 8 games after it.

Minutes - 25 > 19 > 15 > 11 > 10 > 3

Denver came with a better game plan from the jump and just exposed him on both ends in the same manner with screens & occasionally exploiting him in mismatches in post ups, where he has horrible defensive technique adding to his lack of weight/strength to be ever an average defender.

Minutes - 10, 16, 13, DNP

And this isn't an aberration in the playoffs, Vando has been game planned out of minutes in the two months he spent in the regular season as well if anyone wants to just look at his game logs for his time with the Lakers. For someone who is known to make his bread and butter on the defensive end as a POA defensive specialist, these are massive weaknesses that basically eliminate him from any consideration of even whiffing at being an All NBA level defender -
- Screen Navigation
- Lack of discipline to defend without fouling
- Lack of speed to keep up with faster guards
- Lack of size/strength & technique when he gets switched into post ups - like it or not, this is not the 90s and even James f***ing Harden is a better post up defender than Vando

Given context, I think he's just a slighlty above average defender, who gets a lot more credit than he should on that end because of his high activity play style, ala Pat Bev. Frauds Inc.

So we're now saying Vando always sucked on D, but everyone was just duped and bamboozled into thinking he was good?

So why did Kerr and Denver adjust then?

The fact that Hamm had no answer to those adjustments doesn't make Vando a fraud... It makes Hamm one.

He did adjust by removing Vando’s minutes because he doesn’t have the skill set to overcome those weaknesses. And “we’re now saying” is not accurate, Vando being able to exposed on defense has been a hot topic since the playoffs.

[ROballer]

I will bet my house, my future unborn son and my 94 year old grandmother that Christie will be that guy by next playoffs.

The kid checks too many boxes. He will have a Reaves type ascension, where he will fight for minutes early on and then end up being in the starting lineup for whoever gets the nod between Vando or Rui.

I see Reaves/Christie/Lebron/Davis finishing the year as the clear cut starters, while Vincent or D'lo being the 5th starter depending on the matchups in the playoffs.

This kid is pure gold and worth investing some stock in. Quote me on this.

[stan francisco]

I will bet my house, my future unborn son and my 94 year old grandmother that Christie will be that guy by next playoffs.

The kid checks too many boxes. He will have a Reaves type ascension, where he will fight for minutes early on and then end up being in the starting lineup for whoever gets the nod between Vando or Rui.

I see Reaves/Christie/Lebron/Davis finishing the year as the clear cut starters, while Vincent or D'lo being the 5th starter depending on the matchups in the playoffs.

This kid is pure gold and worth investing some stock in. Quote me on this.

I so hope you’re right because his ceiling is sky high. I’d guess next year but maybe he’s ready already. And, he plays both ends. Very efficient, makes almost no mental mistakes. Very smart player.

[ROballer]

Yeah, Ham has a lot of faults as a coach but from what I've seen, he runs a meritocracy first rotation which is very nice to see.

Reaves being a 2nd year undrafted white boy last season, he wouldn't have had the chances he had on most NBA teams.
Unfortunately, coaches often still play the "contracts" and perceived experience over real value and difference making.


That's why 20 year old Christie shouldn't have a problem with the perception of his age/inexperience. If he proves himself better than Rui/Vando/Reddish/Prince and whatever he may have as a competition, Ham will simply play him and that's the end of the story.

And that's exactly how it should be in the entire league, I see some guys buried on the depth charts behind cleary inferior players based on various shady agendas, which just saddens me.

I see Christie as a more complete player both than Rui(who is still not a great 3 point threat and is better suited as a sparkplug/6th man off the bench, as we saw in the playoffs last year) and Vando(who has no offensive game).
That's why barring other trades, I see him as a 30 min starter at some point during the season.

[Godfather13]

I'd be legit curious what adjustments you saw... The only adjustment I saw affecting Vando's play was the fact that calls started going against him and Hamm having an incredibly short leash with him. He'd get a foul and immediately get pulled... It's hard to be effective like that. Especially as an energy defender...

I agree that the GSW series marked a change... And I also think we were incredibly lucky to get past them, not because they were the better team, but because about 3 games into the series, we seemed to forget what made us the better team... And one of those factors was maximizing Vando's effectiveness on D... I understand maybe he got a little banged up too, so maybe I understand taking the focus off him a little, but still... Hamm seemed to fall back to his old 'small ball/outscore em' mentality and we nearly fumbled that one away... We also completely mismanaged the Denver series... and Vando was a factor there as well...

Reaves and Vando were the primary reasons, along with more intensity and better play from AD, that we were even in the playoffs in the first place... And while Reaves Offense was incredible, I'd say his D and defensive chemistry with AD and Vando, might have been even more impressive... It's no wonder when that started to fall apart and Vando started having trouble staying on the floor, we were cooked...

Grizzlies Series - Vando's primary assignments - Bane(G1) & Ja(G2) were getting whatever they wanted till Ham switched up to playing AD in a really high drop on a low activity poorest shooter on the floor(Tillman), as Lebron switched onto JJJ, to contain Ja basically driving right through Vando right to the bucket. It needs to be said Grizzlies coaching staff made no adjustments to this and just watched the paint dry. And as Ham learnt the the lack of impact he was having on defense + the absolute liability he is to offensive spacing and flow, his minutes regressed each game.

Minutes - 23 > 21, 21 > 19 > 17 > 15

GSW - Kerr adjusted from playing Steph off ball after G1 to putting Steph on ball and exposing Vando's biggest weakness - screen navigation, after which he became useless for the rest of the playoffs, including the Denver series, while Ham didn't get it for like 8 games after it.

Minutes - 25 > 19 > 15 > 11 > 10 > 3

Denver came with a better game plan from the jump and just exposed him on both ends in the same manner with screens & occasionally exploiting him in mismatches in post ups, where he has horrible defensive technique adding to his lack of weight/strength to be ever an average defender.

Minutes - 10, 16, 13, DNP

And this isn't an aberration in the playoffs, Vando has been game planned out of minutes in the two months he spent in the regular season as well if anyone wants to just look at his game logs for his time with the Lakers. For someone who is known to make his bread and butter on the defensive end as a POA defensive specialist, these are massive weaknesses that basically eliminate him from any consideration of even whiffing at being an All NBA level defender -
- Screen Navigation
- Lack of discipline to defend without fouling
- Lack of speed to keep up with faster guards
- Lack of size/strength & technique when he gets switched into post ups - like it or not, this is not the 90s and even James f***ing Harden is a better post up defender than Vando

Given context, I think he's just a slighlty above average defender, who gets a lot more credit than he should on that end because of his high activity play style, ala Pat Bev. Frauds Inc.

So we're now saying Vando always sucked on D, but everyone was just duped and bamboozled into thinking he was good?

So why did Kerr and Denver adjust then?

The fact that Hamm had no answer to those adjustments doesn't make Vando a fraud... It makes Hamm one.

Did I say 'sucked'? Your words, not mine.

I gave an emperical analysis of what I saw, supported by facts, which you are free to counter with the same. Don't put words in my mouth.

[Godfather13]

I think Vando got injured in the GSW series. Prior, he played Ariza level defense from 2008.

Coach Malone completely punked Ham. Ham needs a senior assistant, a previous head coach or a Rondo.

Ja runs through anyone in the history of the game. Can’t blame Vando too much for not single handedly stopping the GSW pick n roll. Murray and Jokic are hard to stop. You’re talking about historically great players.

I’ll look at D Lo, not Vando for our most immediate defensive individual improvements needed.


Game 1, not injured:

Watch on YouTube

Next game injury, 2nd quarter. After this, Vando didn’t impress in the playoffs. No wonder.

Watch on YouTube

I don't know about the injury, but I agree Ham did leave a lot on the table throughout the playoffs - regarding to a lot of aspects other than Vando too.

I thought the adjustment(to run Vando into screens), with Steph bringing the ball up was pretty apparent from Game 2 onwards. Vando was just dying on Dray/Looney's screens, as he has for his entire Lakers tenure. Ham took 3 quarters to realize what was happening, by when they already had like a 30 point lead.

Ham also needed another 7 games after to realize Vando in starting line ups was a cooked idea, by when we were 0-3 in the Nuggets series.

Basketball isn't a great game for specialists like most of the other team sports - everyone has to play both sides of the court at a reasonably decent level. The only exception to that rule are the offensive juggernauts(Luka, Steph, Joker, Spida, etc) that can carry enough of a weight on that side of the floor to cancel out their weaknesses on defense. Vando's defense isn't elite enough to do that for his offense, which is specially hard cos Adam Silver's league rewards offense 2x defense anyway.

[Godfather13]

I will bet my house, my future unborn son and my 94 year old grandmother that Christie will be that guy by next playoffs.

The kid checks too many boxes. He will have a Reaves type ascension, where he will fight for minutes early on and then end up being in the starting lineup for whoever gets the nod between Vando or Rui.

I see Reaves/Christie/Lebron/Davis finishing the year as the clear cut starters, while Vincent or D'lo being the 5th starter depending on the matchups in the playoffs.

This kid is pure gold and worth investing some stock in. Quote me on this.

I feel Max already has way better technique, agility & defensive awareness than Reaves, and already feels like a top 3-5 defender on the team. His ascension in minutes > starters totally hinges on his ability to make some shots. We know he's a total gym rat like Reaves and definitely puts in the work, and his shooting technique is about as good as it can be. So, I feel it's on;y a matter of time. Not gonna put pressure on a 20 year old to take massive leaps, but yeah.. the future is definitely bright.

[Kilroy]

Grizzlies Series - Vando's primary assignments - Bane(G1) & Ja(G2) were getting whatever they wanted till Ham switched up to playing AD in a really high drop on a low activity poorest shooter on the floor(Tillman), as Lebron switched onto JJJ, to contain Ja basically driving right through Vando right to the bucket. It needs to be said Grizzlies coaching staff made no adjustments to this and just watched the paint dry. And as Ham learnt the the lack of impact he was having on defense + the absolute liability he is to offensive spacing and flow, his minutes regressed each game.

Minutes - 23 > 21, 21 > 19 > 17 > 15

GSW - Kerr adjusted from playing Steph off ball after G1 to putting Steph on ball and exposing Vando's biggest weakness - screen navigation, after which he became useless for the rest of the playoffs, including the Denver series, while Ham didn't get it for like 8 games after it.

Minutes - 25 > 19 > 15 > 11 > 10 > 3

Denver came with a better game plan from the jump and just exposed him on both ends in the same manner with screens & occasionally exploiting him in mismatches in post ups, where he has horrible defensive technique adding to his lack of weight/strength to be ever an average defender.

Minutes - 10, 16, 13, DNP

And this isn't an aberration in the playoffs, Vando has been game planned out of minutes in the two months he spent in the regular season as well if anyone wants to just look at his game logs for his time with the Lakers. For someone who is known to make his bread and butter on the defensive end as a POA defensive specialist, these are massive weaknesses that basically eliminate him from any consideration of even whiffing at being an All NBA level defender -
- Screen Navigation
- Lack of discipline to defend without fouling
- Lack of speed to keep up with faster guards
- Lack of size/strength & technique when he gets switched into post ups - like it or not, this is not the 90s and even James f***ing Harden is a better post up defender than Vando

Given context, I think he's just a slighlty above average defender, who gets a lot more credit than he should on that end because of his high activity play style, ala Pat Bev. Frauds Inc.

So we're now saying Vando always sucked on D, but everyone was just duped and bamboozled into thinking he was good?

So why did Kerr and Denver adjust then?

The fact that Hamm had no answer to those adjustments doesn't make Vando a fraud... It makes Hamm one.

He did adjust by removing Vando’s minutes because he doesn’t have the skill set to overcome those weaknesses. And “we’re now saying” is not accurate, Vando being able to exposed on defense has been a hot topic since the playoffs.

Given context, I think he's just a slighlty above average defender, who gets a lot more credit than he should on that end because of his high activity play style, ala Pat Bev. Frauds Inc.

So how do you read this, then? Who was saying Vando was a mediocre defender during the season and up until midway through the GSW series?
Not anyone...

I'm convinced what's happening here is people who didn't actually watch the games coming up with a narrative that suits the results based on internet conjecture...

Putting Vando in Fraud's category... Is just brain-dead... You can say he's a liability on offense if you want, but then you'll have to explain why LW4 played instead... Because outside of 1 game, he was much worse... And he played no D.

At some point, if pulling the player that "couldn't adjust" didn't improve the defense, you have to question if that actually qualifies as an adjustment... Given that Defense is a team effort, wouldn't have made sense to instead modify the switching scheme to maximize the player, who up until the last few game, had been clearly one of, if not your best, defender?

[Kilroy]

Grizzlies Series - Vando's primary assignments - Bane(G1) & Ja(G2) were getting whatever they wanted till Ham switched up to playing AD in a really high drop on a low activity poorest shooter on the floor(Tillman), as Lebron switched onto JJJ, to contain Ja basically driving right through Vando right to the bucket. It needs to be said Grizzlies coaching staff made no adjustments to this and just watched the paint dry. And as Ham learnt the the lack of impact he was having on defense + the absolute liability he is to offensive spacing and flow, his minutes regressed each game.

Minutes - 23 > 21, 21 > 19 > 17 > 15

GSW - Kerr adjusted from playing Steph off ball after G1 to putting Steph on ball and exposing Vando's biggest weakness - screen navigation, after which he became useless for the rest of the playoffs, including the Denver series, while Ham didn't get it for like 8 games after it.

Minutes - 25 > 19 > 15 > 11 > 10 > 3

Denver came with a better game plan from the jump and just exposed him on both ends in the same manner with screens & occasionally exploiting him in mismatches in post ups, where he has horrible defensive technique adding to his lack of weight/strength to be ever an average defender.

Minutes - 10, 16, 13, DNP

And this isn't an aberration in the playoffs, Vando has been game planned out of minutes in the two months he spent in the regular season as well if anyone wants to just look at his game logs for his time with the Lakers. For someone who is known to make his bread and butter on the defensive end as a POA defensive specialist, these are massive weaknesses that basically eliminate him from any consideration of even whiffing at being an All NBA level defender -
- Screen Navigation
- Lack of discipline to defend without fouling
- Lack of speed to keep up with faster guards
- Lack of size/strength & technique when he gets switched into post ups - like it or not, this is not the 90s and even James f***ing Harden is a better post up defender than Vando

Given context, I think he's just a slighlty above average defender, who gets a lot more credit than he should on that end because of his high activity play style, ala Pat Bev. Frauds Inc.

So we're now saying Vando always sucked on D, but everyone was just duped and bamboozled into thinking he was good?

So why did Kerr and Denver adjust then?

The fact that Hamm had no answer to those adjustments doesn't make Vando a fraud... It makes Hamm one.

Did I say 'sucked'? Your words, not mine.

I gave an emperical analysis of what I saw, supported by facts, which you are free to counter with the same. Don't put words in my mouth.

Why waste time addressing flawed points...
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1629020/head-to-head?dir=D&sort=SECONDS&SeasonType=Playoffs
He matched up with Ja more than anyone else, for 66 min... for the series... In which Ja got 39 points in 296 possessions...
He matched up with Bane for 4min 27sec... In which Bane got a cool 4 pts, on 33% shooting...
He also didn't foul bane and Ja only got 3 FTs...
JJ was the one who had the most success 11min and 16pts...

So mediocre ... Here's what Ham had to say about him on Ja and Bane... https://lebronwire.usatoday.com/2023/04/17/darvin-ham-praises-jarred-vanderbilts-defense-after-win-vs-grizzlies/

“It’s a testament to him, and it’s a teachable moment for all young basketball players out there,” Ham said. “They just think it’s all about making threes or dunking on people or whatever. If you’re able to lock in defensively, rebound, and really embrace that role, there will always be a place for you on a high-level basketball team and in a high-level league such as the NBA. His ability to just lock in and be selfless, taking tough matchups, diving on the floor, doing the dirty work, setting screens, going to the second or third action when he’s involved — it’s great. It’s invaluable. And I’m just happy we have an asset like that on our roster.”

He got Curry for 18min in which Curry got 5 pts on a little more than 26% shooting... But he matched up more with Dray at 25min, in which dray got 9pts... I thought he did an excellent job on Klay for the 6 min he got him... 2pts 33%

About that Denver series.... Jamal Murray... Vanderbilt had him for almost 28 mins... During which Murray only attempted 5 shots and got 3 pts... Porter Jr had a high percentage on him but then again they only saw each other for about 3 min in which Porter got 5 pts...

So if there was anything wrong with our D... I don't think it had anything to do with Vando...

[Godfather13]

So we're now saying Vando always sucked on D, but everyone was just duped and bamboozled into thinking he was good?

So why did Kerr and Denver adjust then?

The fact that Hamm had no answer to those adjustments doesn't make Vando a fraud... It makes Hamm one.

Did I say 'sucked'? Your words, not mine.

I gave an emperical analysis of what I saw, supported by facts, which you are free to counter with the same. Don't put words in my mouth.

Why waste time addressing flawed points...
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1629020/head-to-head?dir=D&sort=SECONDS&SeasonType=Playoffs
He matched up with Ja more than anyone else, for 66 min... for the series... In which Ja got 39 points in 296 possessions...
He matched up with Bane for 4min 27sec... In which Bane got a cool 4 pts, on 33% shooting...
He also didn't foul bane and Ja only got 3 FTs...
JJ was the one who had the most success 11min and 16pts...

So mediocre ... Here's what Ham had to say about him on Ja and Bane... https://lebronwire.usatoday.com/2023/04/17/darvin-ham-praises-jarred-vanderbilts-defense-after-win-vs-grizzlies/

“It’s a testament to him, and it’s a teachable moment for all young basketball players out there,” Ham said. “They just think it’s all about making threes or dunking on people or whatever. If you’re able to lock in defensively, rebound, and really embrace that role, there will always be a place for you on a high-level basketball team and in a high-level league such as the NBA. His ability to just lock in and be selfless, taking tough matchups, diving on the floor, doing the dirty work, setting screens, going to the second or third action when he’s involved — it’s great. It’s invaluable. And I’m just happy we have an asset like that on our roster.”

He got Curry for 18min in which Curry got 5 pts on a little more than 26% shooting... But he matched up more with Dray at 25min, in which dray got 9pts... I thought he did an excellent job on Klay for the 6 min he got him... 2pts 33%

About that Denver series.... Jamal Murray... Vanderbilt had him for almost 28 mins... During which Murray only attempted 5 shots and got 3 pts... Porter Jr had a high percentage on him but then again they only saw each other for about 3 min in which Porter got 5 pts...

So if there was anything wrong with our D... I don't think it had anything to do with Vando...

I think the lack of minutes on Steph & Murray kinda re-affirms what I said about teams with capable coaches running him into screens to render his minutes useless by getting him switched off their primary ball handlers. Those minutes dumps aren’t a large enough sample size to delve into for any kinda serious analysis. They just go onto proove that other teams were able to game plan his key strength out of the ball game, while continuing to exploit his weakness on offense.

Ja’s the guy he got to guard most, which is mostly thanks to poor coaching by Memphis. Here’s Ja’s splits in the Lakers series -
@ Vando 55.6% FG (15/27) | 50% 3FG (6/12)
@ anyone else 38% (30/79) | 36.8% 3FG (36.8%
Overall 42.5% FG(45/106) | 41.9% 3FG (13/31)

FYI – The 296 number is for partial possessions, which is a whole lot different from actual possessions. Be more careful throwing it around as it would amount to 220 pace of play or something crazy like that. Also interesting that you found that more pertinent to bring up than Ja’s efficiency numbers against Vando

That statement from Ham kinda rings hollow, considering he was the one responsible for reducing Vando’s minutes throughout the regular season & playoffs. But that’s Ham for you – all vibes, zero substance. Man would definitely make for a great commentator one day, regardless of how his coaching career goes.

Diving deeper into Vando, since you already got me there -
- Man’s never had a positive +/- season in the playoffs or regular season after his debut season, when he played less the 5 & 2 mpg in both formats respectively.
- Only two seasons when he has averaged a positive Steals:TOVs ratio, which is absolutely unacceptable unfiltered dogsh*t for a non playmaking defensive specialist
- DRTg & NetRTg
Regular Season -
Vando DRTG 112.1 NetRTg -1.5
Overall DRTG 111.7 NetRTg +4.4

Playoffs -
Vando DRTG 109.1 NetRTg -3.0
Overall DRTG 110.3 NetRTg +2.4

*Regular Season NBA.com data averaged for Feb-April
https://www.nba.com/stats/team/1610612747/advanced?SeasonType=Playoffs
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1629020?SeasonType=Regular+Season

So we were a 1 point better defensively & 6.4 points worse offensively in our minutes with Vando on the floor in the playoffs, than otherwise. Context: most of his minutes probably came with AD as a starter, who was undebatably the best defensive player in the playoffs. And the -5.4 pt Net Rating swing likely could have won us a couple of close games against the Nuggets, had our dumbass coach known to kick him out of the rotation before Game 4.

Hope this is wholesome enough to convince you that Vando is a slightly above average defender & a bad NBA player who contributes negatively to the team’s winning chances, which is a feature that is only exacerbated in the playoffs. Either way have a nice day!

[stan francisco]

Yeah, Ham has a lot of faults as a coach but from what I've seen, he runs a meritocracy first rotation which is very nice to see.

Reaves being a 2nd year undrafted white boy last season, he wouldn't have had the chances he had on most NBA teams.
Unfortunately, coaches often still play the "contracts" and perceived experience over real value and difference making.


That's why 20 year old Christie shouldn't have a problem with the perception of his age/inexperience. If he proves himself better than Rui/Vando/Reddish/Prince and whatever he may have as a competition, Ham will simply play him and that's the end of the story.

And that's exactly how it should be in the entire league, I see some guys buried on the depth charts behind cleary inferior players based on various shady agendas, which just saddens me.

I see Christie as a more complete player both than Rui(who is still not a great 3 point threat and is better suited as a sparkplug/6th man off the bench, as we saw in the playoffs last year) and Vando(who has no offensive game).
That's why barring other trades, I see him as a 30 min starter at some point during the season.

Good points. I agree with your take on how it should be, and on Christie 100%, and I hope I’m wrong in thinking his frame is too fragile for all of that to blow up this year. He’s got the athleticism, the brains(!), and if he’s strong enough to defend Kawhi, George, Luka, Murray, Beal, Klay, then your prediction will be spot on. I think he might get there soon but it’ll take half a season or a full one in the gym.

To me, if Vando plays Ariza 2008 like interference defense like he did until he got injured against GSW, he’s number four for me. LBJ’s knees, need our fourth best player to be a badass wing defender.

In fact, I wouldn’t mind if both started.

PG: Reaves
SG: Christie
SF: Vando
PF: LBJ
C: Davis

The defense…

[stan francisco]

No comments on Vando’s injury ^ after all the semi-unjustified bashing of him above? We’ll ignore that our best wing defender got injured beginning of game 2 against GSW in order to make believe he suddenly sucked instead? Cool stories.

[Godfather13]

No comments on Vando’s injury ^ after all the semi-unjustified bashing of him above? We’ll ignore that our best wing defender got injured beginning of game 2 against GSW in order to make believe he suddenly sucked instead? Cool stories.

Lol.. calling my **** out. I love it.

I saw the videos > registered them > and appreciate the context. But honestly, I didn't see him hindered much at all in the two series after that from a physical ability side, as much I noticed him being exploited for pre-existing weaknesses he carried into the playoffs. I saw the series pretty closely & re-watched all but the final Nugs game, so there's that too. Also, by that time of the season, pretty much everyone is carrying some sort of injuries here and there -
- Lebron, AD likely had surgeries immediately following the playoffs. Lebron walked straight back into the playoffs and probably had his worst post season run ever. AD was a walking heart attack waiting to crush our hopes and dreams all through the post season
- Steph & Ja were dinged
- The last two years' champions didn't face one fully healthy team in their championship runs, which kinda legitimized the Lakers 2020 title even more as the same 4 teams, with the same cores made the CFs again

**** like this happens, and you still mostly judge people mostly based on results.

I've seen those problems with his game before and in the regular season & playoffs & it's got hard factual evidence in his screen navigation & switchability grades on BBI as well as his playing time trends through regular season/playoffs with the Lakers. None of this is new information either, as it's plagued him throughout his career. Hell, the same dude with a legit jumper is probably a 25 mil/Yr guy, which we couldn't afford.

Lastly, I'd resist using the word 'semi-unjustified bashing', as I tried and produced as much empirical data evidence about my point of view as possible. It may not be correct, and I'd be happy to hear a real argument be made against it. However, injury may have been a slight factor, but his minutes on Steph & Jamal(or the lack of minutes to be accurate) is proof that most of his ineffectiveness was as result of his defensive strength being game planned against by opposing coaches.

[Godfather13]

No comments on Vando’s injury ^ after all the semi-unjustified bashing of him above? We’ll ignore that our best wing defender got injured beginning of game 2 against GSW in order to make believe he suddenly sucked instead? Cool stories.

Damn just looking at the depth chart in your signature. You really bought in on Wood eh?

[stan francisco]

And, I’m going to have to continue to call out your ****, it seems, so I’m glad you love it.

You can’t just look away from the fact that he completely sucked ass after that injury just because you’d like to because it fits your argument that he always sucked anyway. Lol. Facts are not opinions. Opinions are not always factually sourced. Like in this case, if I may be so blunt. You seem to recognize my point but then ignore it again…?

Vando for real had Curry’s and Ja’s number as much as that’s now humanly possible. He annoyed them both to death, didn’t give them a breath of air for a second. In their grill. Both were clearly negatively impacted by his intense and long armed defense. It was close to Ariza 2008 level. Until…

After that knee bending injury, he had little to no impact defensively guarding anyone. Guarding Curry one-on-one is an elite athletic level reactive activity which simply cannot be done by almost any healthy human, and it certainly can’t be done with a serious knee injury that was likely an ACL and MCL strained or worse, based on the angle of the impact (not a doc).

Night and day difference in Vando’s game before and after injury, takes no doctor to see that. That’s surely provable by the advanced defensive numbers on some site somewhere but I’m too tired of continuing arguments like this only to find for you what’s already apparent from here.

I posted that video because I remembered thinking when it happened, “that’s the season”. Which it was. And I’m having a hard time believing that you really watched it all intently twice and missed how pivotal that injury was. You must have either A) smoked something or B) texted too much while ‘watching’, or maybe both? Peace.

Either that, or might you be one of them offense-only fans? In either case it’s not my place to guess on how you digest basketball on TV but facts will remain facts. When peeps willfully ignore pertinent facts so that they can continue to make their same ‘case’, I gotta continue to call BS. Cheers, brother.

[stan francisco]

No comments on Vando’s injury ^ after all the semi-unjustified bashing of him above? We’ll ignore that our best wing defender got injured beginning of game 2 against GSW in order to make believe he suddenly sucked instead? Cool stories.

Damn just looking at the depth chart in your signature. You really bought in on Wood eh?

Deep indeed. He makes us MUCH better offensively. Our offense will be sick. Reaves to Wood lob. Pick and pop with LBJ, Pick and roll with AD(!). He adds a ton of cutting space with his unguardable three pointer.

Which actually means nothing unless he plays defense. With Ham coaching, no defense means no PT. No PT, no scoring. Simple math.

Looking forward to the season. I think AD will introduce Wood to the world of dominant defense. In a hurry. Because AD must surely realize what that would mean. Twin tower position less ball. Impossible to guard.

Defense first, then the glam!

[Godfather13]

And, I’m going to have to continue to call out your ****, it seems, so I’m glad you love it.

You can’t just look away from the fact that he completely sucked ass after that injury just because you’d like to because it fits your argument that he always sucked anyway. Lol. Facts are not opinions. Opinions are not always factually sourced. Like in this case, if I may be so blunt. You seem to recognize my point but then ignore it again…?

Vando for real had Curry’s and Ja’s number as much as that’s now humanly possible. He annoyed them both to death, didn’t give them a breath of air for a second. In their grill. Both were clearly negatively impacted by his intense and long armed defense. It was close to Ariza 2008 level. Until…

After that knee bending injury, he had little to no impact defensively guarding anyone. Guarding Curry one-on-one is an elite athletic level reactive activity which simply cannot be done by almost any healthy human, and it certainly can’t be done with a serious knee injury that was likely an ACL and MCL strained or worse, based on the angle of the impact (not a doc).

Night and day difference in Vando’s game before and after injury, takes no doctor to see that. That’s surely provable by the advanced defensive numbers on some site somewhere but I’m too tired of continuing arguments like this only to find for you what’s already apparent from here.

I posted that video because I remembered thinking when it happened, “that’s the season”. Which it was. And I’m having a hard time believing that you really watched it all intently twice and missed how pivotal that injury was. You must have either A) smoked something or B) texted too much while ‘watching’, or maybe both? Peace.

Either that, or might you be one of them offense-only fans? In either case it’s not my place to guess on how you digest basketball on TV but facts will remain facts. When peeps willfully ignore pertinent facts so that they can continue to make their same ‘case’, I gotta continue to call BS. Cheers, brother.

I promise not to be hurt by being called out / being proven wrong, as long as it's doesn't get personal my friend. And so far from my time in these forums, you come across as a real fan, so nothing but love.

As for the injury, I'm not ignoring it. I acknowledged the injury and said I didn't notice enough of a difference in his movement going forward to absolve him of everything that proceeded from there on. I believe it was like a niggle that may have impacted him in a bigger way immediately, but one of those injuries you either heal from next day, or do not hinder you much from being yourself.

And yes it fits my narrative, but so do these facts which I've explained previously in much greater detail.

- He got game planned out of minutes in the regular season as well, if you pay a close look at his minutes there - before the injury. Tim/Cranjis brought this up in a tweet as well if you wanna search it

- Ja, despite Jenkins' poor game planning, had, by far, the best time offensively against Vando of all Lakers defenders he faced - before the injury. The difference is actually laughable for someone we wanna hang our hat on as out POA defensive stopper. What you said about Vando having Ja's number is a 100% false. I shared the breakdown earlier.

- Kerr & Malone got him playing more minutes on their offensively inactive bigs than the PGs he was supposed to have as his primary assignment, because his screen navigation sucks ass

- He doesn't pair well with poor shooting stars like AD/2022-23 LeBron well to start with, which is a feature that only exacerbated against any half decent coaches / PGs who're worth their salt.

Now three of these are true for before and after his injury, so make of it what you must.

Now, did you not notice the change in strategy by Kerr after Game 2 to eliminate Vando from active coverages?

Denver attacked him the same way to an even higher degree by running him through screens to get their slashers on free rolls to the bucket, cos we couldn't let Joker(like Dray/Looney) alone even at the perimeter. Denver were also even more shamelessly disrespectful to him on offense making AD-Bron's life miserable in the paint whenever Vando was on the floor.

I may have smoked something & been texting too much at the same time, but how else do you explain the numbers I used to support my thoughts?

Let's turn this around and have you or anyone else answer these basic questions -

Why did he spend more time guarding Dray than Steph?
Why did Ja's efficiency go from 37% to 50% when he was on Ja, if he's such an elite POA defender as you believe?
Why did his minutes regress every series & through the regular season?

Let's hear it. Honestly open to being proved wrong, but I don't think you have a shot in hell on this one.


The word elite gets thrown around with too little context. Alex Caruso, Matisse Thybulle, Ben Simmons, Jrue Holiday, Marcus Smart, Dillon Brooks are some elite perimeter POA defenders. I'm sorry, but Vando just doesn't begin to even sniff that category & his offensive weaknesses just make him borderline unplayable - which is a fact that Ham finally happened to discover after 15 games in the playoffs.

I compare him to DLo. Not good enough on one end to carry his weaknesses on the other. Ergo, waste of a roster spot for the playoffs if you wanna be a serious contender.

[Godfather13]

No comments on Vando’s injury ^ after all the semi-unjustified bashing of him above? We’ll ignore that our best wing defender got injured beginning of game 2 against GSW in order to make believe he suddenly sucked instead? Cool stories.

Damn just looking at the depth chart in your signature. You really bought in on Wood eh?

Deep indeed. He makes us MUCH better offensively. Our offense will be sick. Reaves to Wood lob. Pick and pop with LBJ, Pick and roll with AD(!). He adds a ton of cutting space with his unguardable three pointer.

Which actually means nothing unless he plays defense. With Ham coaching, no defense means no PT. No PT, no scoring. Simple math.

Looking forward to the season. I think AD will introduce Wood to the world of dominant defense. In a hurry. Because AD must surely realize what that would mean. Twin tower position less ball. Impossible to guard.

Defense first, then the glam!

I am pretty excited about Wood too - have been one of the very few advocates of signing him even if it cost Vando in this forum. I love the ideas of his pairing with AD, LeBron, Reaves, Gabe, DLo, etc too.

My only problem with it is that I'm just having a moment imagining LeBron watching his tiny SF assignments either spotting up in open corners OR slashing right by him, cos he just doesn't care about it anymore in the regular season. And if AD's getting his wish of being a PF, can you really trust Wood to defend the rim.

I feel that'll be reductive enough to cancel out Woods offensive impact on the starters, so it's best we try to exploit these combos in bench line ups against the other team's bench.

I figure Wood will get to start all games that AD's out(about 40) & depending on how he does, some game LeBron is out(35ish iirc), so he will get a his share of minutes. Hopefully he finds a purpose playing with an actual contender, with some of the all time greats who know how to win for the first time. Fwiw, I think Ham's the perfect kinda sweet talking motivational coach that will get him to buy into playing defense, which will be crucial to him retaining his spot in the playoffs.

[stan francisco]

And, I’m going to have to continue to call out your ****, it seems, so I’m glad you love it.

You can’t just look away from the fact that he completely sucked ass after that injury just because you’d like to because it fits your argument that he always sucked anyway. Lol. Facts are not opinions. Opinions are not always factually sourced. Like in this case, if I may be so blunt. You seem to recognize my point but then ignore it again…?

Vando for real had Curry’s and Ja’s number as much as that’s now humanly possible. He annoyed them both to death, didn’t give them a breath of air for a second. In their grill. Both were clearly negatively impacted by his intense and long armed defense. It was close to Ariza 2008 level. Until…

After that knee bending injury, he had little to no impact defensively guarding anyone. Guarding Curry one-on-one is an elite athletic level reactive activity which simply cannot be done by almost any healthy human, and it certainly can’t be done with a serious knee injury that was likely an ACL and MCL strained or worse, based on the angle of the impact (not a doc).

Night and day difference in Vando’s game before and after injury, takes no doctor to see that. That’s surely provable by the advanced defensive numbers on some site somewhere but I’m too tired of continuing arguments like this only to find for you what’s already apparent from here.

I posted that video because I remembered thinking when it happened, “that’s the season”. Which it was. And I’m having a hard time believing that you really watched it all intently twice and missed how pivotal that injury was. You must have either A) smoked something or B) texted too much while ‘watching’, or maybe both? Peace.

Either that, or might you be one of them offense-only fans? In either case it’s not my place to guess on how you digest basketball on TV but facts will remain facts. When peeps willfully ignore pertinent facts so that they can continue to make their same ‘case’, I gotta continue to call BS. Cheers, brother.

I promise not to be hurt by being called out / being proven wrong, as long as it's doesn't get personal my friend. And so far from my time in these forums, you come across as a real fan, so nothing but love.

As for the injury, I'm not ignoring it. I acknowledged the injury and said I didn't notice enough of a difference in his movement going forward to absolve him of everything that proceeded from there on. I believe it was like a niggle that may have impacted him in a bigger way immediately, but one of those injuries you either heal from next day, or do not hinder you much from being yourself.

And yes it fits my narrative, but so do these facts which I've explained previously in much greater detail.

- He got game planned out of minutes in the regular season as well, if you pay a close look at his minutes there - before the injury. Tim/Cranjis brought this up in a tweet as well if you wanna search it

- Ja, despite Jenkins' poor game planning, had, by far, the best time offensively against Vando of all Lakers defenders he faced - before the injury. The difference is actually laughable for someone we wanna hang our hat on as out POA defensive stopper. What you said about Vando having Ja's number is a 100% false. I shared the breakdown earlier.

- Kerr & Malone got him playing more minutes on their offensively inactive bigs than the PGs he was supposed to have as his primary assignment, because his screen navigation sucks ass

- He doesn't pair well with poor shooting stars like AD/2022-23 LeBron well to start with, which is a feature that only exacerbated against any half decent coaches / PGs who're worth their salt.

Now three of these are true for before and after his injury, so make of it what you must.

Now, did you not notice the change in strategy by Kerr after Game 2 to eliminate Vando from active coverages?

Denver attacked him the same way to an even higher degree by running him through screens to get their slashers on free rolls to the bucket, cos we couldn't let Joker(like Dray/Looney) alone even at the perimeter. Denver were also even more shamelessly disrespectful to him on offense making AD-Bron's life miserable in the paint whenever Vando was on the floor.

I may have smoked something & been texting too much at the same time, but how else do you explain the numbers I used to support my thoughts?

Let's turn this around and have you or anyone else answer these basic questions -

Why did he spend more time guarding Dray than Steph?
Why did Ja's efficiency go from 37% to 50% when he was on Ja, if he's such an elite POA defender as you believe?
Why did his minutes regress every series & through the regular season?

Let's hear it. Honestly open to being proved wrong, but I don't think you have a shot in hell on this one.


The word elite gets thrown around with too little context. Alex Caruso, Matisse Thybulle, Ben Simmons, Jrue Holiday, Marcus Smart, Dillon Brooks are some elite perimeter POA defenders. I'm sorry, but Vando just doesn't begin to even sniff that category & his offensive weaknesses just make him borderline unplayable - which is a fact that Ham finally happened to discover after 15 games in the playoffs.

I compare him to DLo. Not good enough on one end to carry his weaknesses on the other. Ergo, waste of a roster spot for the playoffs if you wanna be a serious contender.

Good post, good points. Maybe I need to rewatch. Still, I believe the change in tactics in game two was created by his injury in game one against GSW. We put him on slower players like Green after that because of the injury, which is not his comfort zone. I’d like to give Kerr and Malone the credit but I credit the injury more. See his sudden drop in intensity, not just stats. By the eye test, Ja was bothered and we win that series. I’d argue, a lot thanks to Vando’s defense on Ja. Let’s agree to disagree? Cheers.

[Godfather13]

And, I’m going to have to continue to call out your ****, it seems, so I’m glad you love it.

You can’t just look away from the fact that he completely sucked ass after that injury just because you’d like to because it fits your argument that he always sucked anyway. Lol. Facts are not opinions. Opinions are not always factually sourced. Like in this case, if I may be so blunt. You seem to recognize my point but then ignore it again…?

Vando for real had Curry’s and Ja’s number as much as that’s now humanly possible. He annoyed them both to death, didn’t give them a breath of air for a second. In their grill. Both were clearly negatively impacted by his intense and long armed defense. It was close to Ariza 2008 level. Until…

After that knee bending injury, he had little to no impact defensively guarding anyone. Guarding Curry one-on-one is an elite athletic level reactive activity which simply cannot be done by almost any healthy human, and it certainly can’t be done with a serious knee injury that was likely an ACL and MCL strained or worse, based on the angle of the impact (not a doc).

Night and day difference in Vando’s game before and after injury, takes no doctor to see that. That’s surely provable by the advanced defensive numbers on some site somewhere but I’m too tired of continuing arguments like this only to find for you what’s already apparent from here.

I posted that video because I remembered thinking when it happened, “that’s the season”. Which it was. And I’m having a hard time believing that you really watched it all intently twice and missed how pivotal that injury was. You must have either A) smoked something or B) texted too much while ‘watching’, or maybe both? Peace.

Either that, or might you be one of them offense-only fans? In either case it’s not my place to guess on how you digest basketball on TV but facts will remain facts. When peeps willfully ignore pertinent facts so that they can continue to make their same ‘case’, I gotta continue to call BS. Cheers, brother.

I promise not to be hurt by being called out / being proven wrong, as long as it's doesn't get personal my friend. And so far from my time in these forums, you come across as a real fan, so nothing but love.

As for the injury, I'm not ignoring it. I acknowledged the injury and said I didn't notice enough of a difference in his movement going forward to absolve him of everything that proceeded from there on. I believe it was like a niggle that may have impacted him in a bigger way immediately, but one of those injuries you either heal from next day, or do not hinder you much from being yourself.

And yes it fits my narrative, but so do these facts which I've explained previously in much greater detail.

- He got game planned out of minutes in the regular season as well, if you pay a close look at his minutes there - before the injury. Tim/Cranjis brought this up in a tweet as well if you wanna search it

- Ja, despite Jenkins' poor game planning, had, by far, the best time offensively against Vando of all Lakers defenders he faced - before the injury. The difference is actually laughable for someone we wanna hang our hat on as out POA defensive stopper. What you said about Vando having Ja's number is a 100% false. I shared the breakdown earlier.

- Kerr & Malone got him playing more minutes on their offensively inactive bigs than the PGs he was supposed to have as his primary assignment, because his screen navigation sucks ass

- He doesn't pair well with poor shooting stars like AD/2022-23 LeBron well to start with, which is a feature that only exacerbated against any half decent coaches / PGs who're worth their salt.

Now three of these are true for before and after his injury, so make of it what you must.

Now, did you not notice the change in strategy by Kerr after Game 2 to eliminate Vando from active coverages?

Denver attacked him the same way to an even higher degree by running him through screens to get their slashers on free rolls to the bucket, cos we couldn't let Joker(like Dray/Looney) alone even at the perimeter. Denver were also even more shamelessly disrespectful to him on offense making AD-Bron's life miserable in the paint whenever Vando was on the floor.

I may have smoked something & been texting too much at the same time, but how else do you explain the numbers I used to support my thoughts?

Let's turn this around and have you or anyone else answer these basic questions -

Why did he spend more time guarding Dray than Steph?
Why did Ja's efficiency go from 37% to 50% when he was on Ja, if he's such an elite POA defender as you believe?
Why did his minutes regress every series & through the regular season?

Let's hear it. Honestly open to being proved wrong, but I don't think you have a shot in hell on this one.


The word elite gets thrown around with too little context. Alex Caruso, Matisse Thybulle, Ben Simmons, Jrue Holiday, Marcus Smart, Dillon Brooks are some elite perimeter POA defenders. I'm sorry, but Vando just doesn't begin to even sniff that category & his offensive weaknesses just make him borderline unplayable - which is a fact that Ham finally happened to discover after 15 games in the playoffs.

I compare him to DLo. Not good enough on one end to carry his weaknesses on the other. Ergo, waste of a roster spot for the playoffs if you wanna be a serious contender.

Good post, good points. Maybe I need to rewatch. Still, I believe the change in tactics in game two was created by his injury in game one against GSW. We put him on slower players like Green after that because of the injury, which is not his comfort zone. I’d like to give Kerr and Malone the credit but I credit the injury more. See his sudden drop in intensity, not just stats. By the eye test, Ja was bothered and we win that series. I’d argue, a lot thanks to Vando’s defense on Ja. Let’s agree to disagree? Cheers.

RealGM really needs to up its emoji game man. I wanted to post the shake hands emoji. No gifs. No emojis. What year is this?