Cade + for Wagner

[AaronB]

Anybody whos watched Cade knows he's a team player. He looks to set up his guys before looking for his own when he has to take over.

He can be better but blaming this mess on him when the rest of the roster is G league is a low blow.

He needs to start being more selfish but Cade will certainly play better with better teammates.

Also Wemby is a freak and not really comparable to guys like Cade or Franz. That's All-star potential vs superstar

Cade's problem is not unselfishness.

Cade's problems are that he has little to no interest in defense and that his leadership skills are severely lacking.

He could change that in a minute, if he had the interest,

Let me reiterate the comparison 1 more time:

Franz's worst year in EPM and EW was his rookie year on a 22-win Magic team.

His EPM and EW were still a lot better than Cade's best year, this last year.

To top it off, Cade is getting ready to get paid. One wonders how much motivation Cade will have to get better.

One thing about Franz is that he is a fiery competitor and will not get complacent once he gets paid. That and his brother will kick his but if he ever did.

Thats nice but his overall numbers are still around a .9 OBPM compared to a 2.0 OBPM to Cade.

Cade still produces more on that side

24 to 17 to 14 wins

Whatever Cade is doing, he needs to figure out something better.

[AaronB]

I like both of them alot though so i dont want to bash them. They're both AllStars down the line in my opinion.

I think Cade's lack of motivation to play both sides of the court has him more in line with being one of the game's most overpaid players than an all-star.

[MotownMadness]

I like both of them alot though so i dont want to bash them. They're both AllStars down the line in my opinion.

I think Cade's lack of motivation to play both sides of the court has him more in line with being one of the game's most overpaid players than an all-star.

We'll see but i have seen him at his best for stretches and it's pretty damn good. He'll be worth the rookie max as he still has growth to his game to get more consistent.

If not then we're just where we started anyways lol

[MotownMadness]

Cade's problem is not unselfishness.

Cade's problems are that he has little to no interest in defense and that his leadership skills are severely lacking.

He could change that in a minute, if he had the interest,

Let me reiterate the comparison 1 more time:

Franz's worst year in EPM and EW was his rookie year on a 22-win Magic team.

His EPM and EW were still a lot better than Cade's best year, this last year.

To top it off, Cade is getting ready to get paid. One wonders how much motivation Cade will have to get better.

One thing about Franz is that he is a fiery competitor and will not get complacent once he gets paid. That and his brother will kick his but if he ever did.

Thats nice but his overall numbers are still around a .9 OBPM compared to a 2.0 OBPM to Cade.

Cade still produces more on that side

24 to 17 to 14 wins

Whatever Cade is doing, he needs to figure out something better.

Well when the FO openly tanks and kicks away the cap space for 3 years

Detroit kinda made their own bed from a competitive nature with a bunch of kids

[BDM22]

Perfect example.

If the Spurs go from 22 to 17 to 14 wins over the next 2 years, then I think we should question that big dude's impact on the game.

No way that happens. Why? That big dude plays both ends of the court.

Cade has shown he is not that interested in playing both ends of the court, and this is a terrible example to the rest of the team.

Despite what most Piston fans are saying, the Pistons have talent.

What they don't have is any on-court leadership.

If the Spurs hire Monty Williams and start Wemby next to the likes of Killian Hayes, Isaiah Livers, Kevin Knox, etc (most starting lineups of any team in league history), it might happen! lol

Spurs are a functional franchise though, so that isn't likely.

Monty Williams has coached in the NBA for 10 years.

By record, he is the very definition of a mediocre coach.

He has a 10-year record that backs that up.

While surely partly responsible for a 14-win season, not all.

Of course, he also had a trash roster. No one denies that. That's kind of what this whole discussion is about. He just took a trash roster and utilized the very worst aspects of it lol.

What we haven't seen is Franz play on a trash roster other than his rookie year when Orlando lost 60 games (hence they got the #1 pick the next year). The upswing started when Paolo came in to be the #1 option, and then a guy like Suggs finally started clicking as that top tier 3&D guard. Throw in WCJ.

Paolo would be the best player on the Pistons. Suggs & WCJ would easily be the 2nd best players on the Pistons behind Cade. You understand how you cannot compare these situations in terms of wins and losses, right? Franz and Cade are just a piece of the puzzle. Neither are winning anything alone.

[BadWolf]

Just what the Magic need, less shooting.

[Slim Charless]

Perfect example.

If the Spurs go from 22 to 17 to 14 wins over the next 2 years, then I think we should question that big dude's impact on the game.

No way that happens. Why? That big dude plays both ends of the court.

Cade has shown he is not that interested in playing both ends of the court, and this is a terrible example to the rest of the team.

Despite what most Piston fans are saying, the Pistons have talent.

What they don't have is any on-court leadership.

If the Spurs hire Monty Williams and start Wemby next to the likes of Killian Hayes, Isaiah Livers, Kevin Knox, etc (most starting lineups of any team in league history), it might happen! lol

Spurs are a functional franchise though, so that isn't likely.

Monty Williams has coached in the NBA for 10 years.

By record, he is the very definition of a mediocre coach.

He has a 10-year record that backs that up.

While surely partly responsible for a 14-win season, not all.

Monty Williams is the worst coach in the NBA. 3 franchises have fired him....soon to be a 4th I'd imagine.

I understand you're feeling defensive about the poll results and Franz, but to place a greater share of the blame of this Pistons season on Cade then Monty is just dishonest. Or maybe you didn't watch any DET games this year too.

The coach is responsible for setting the lineups, making adjustments and everything else lol. If DET had YOUR coach they would've won another 15 games. Minimum.

[Karmaloop]

Wagner > Cade (that would be majority and universal)

Black = Thompson (each team will like their rookie)

#18 for Sarr SWAP (which doesn’t have to be #1 overall)

I'm not sure that Wagner is clearly more valuable than Cade. I'd say they're probably closer to equal in value than Wagner being clearly better (and more valuable) than Cade. I don't really hate the idea of Black and Thompson being roughly similar in value. I don't think either showcased enough to justify them as clearly more valuable than the other. The guaranteed top 5 picks is exponentially more valuable than the 18th pick even in a weak draft.

[Kalamazoo317]

Just what the Magic need, less shooting.

Funny, I had the exact same reaction to the idea for the Pistons.

[AaronB]

If the Spurs hire Monty Williams and start Wemby next to the likes of Killian Hayes, Isaiah Livers, Kevin Knox, etc (most starting lineups of any team in league history), it might happen! lol

Spurs are a functional franchise though, so that isn't likely.

Monty Williams has coached in the NBA for 10 years.

By record, he is the very definition of a mediocre coach.

He has a 10-year record that backs that up.

While surely partly responsible for a 14-win season, not all.

Monty Williams is the worst coach in the NBA. 3 franchises have fired him....soon to be a 4th I'd imagine.

I understand you're feeling defensive about the poll results and Franz, but to place a greater share of the blame of this Pistons season on Cade then Monty is just dishonest. Or maybe you didn't watch any DET games this year too.

The coach is responsible for setting the lineups, making adjustments and everything else lol. If DET had YOUR coach they would've won another 15 games. Minimum.

Dude, Monty Williams was coach of the year in 2022.

Now he may not be a great coach, but his suckiness is vastly over rated.

Is he a great coach? No.

Does he $uck? No.

He is the very definition of a mediocre coach.

Cade is the very definition of a mediocre player who has tons of talent and not so much motivation. Wait until he gets paid.

This summer, both will get paid. I doubt there is one Magic fan who does not think Wagner will work on his game like a demon over the summer.

Cade will spend his summer being the poster child of a 14-win team.

[Slim Charless]

Monty Williams has coached in the NBA for 10 years.

By record, he is the very definition of a mediocre coach.

He has a 10-year record that backs that up.

While surely partly responsible for a 14-win season, not all.

Monty Williams is the worst coach in the NBA. 3 franchises have fired him....soon to be a 4th I'd imagine.

I understand you're feeling defensive about the poll results and Franz, but to place a greater share of the blame of this Pistons season on Cade then Monty is just dishonest. Or maybe you didn't watch any DET games this year too.

The coach is responsible for setting the lineups, making adjustments and everything else lol. If DET had YOUR coach they would've won another 15 games. Minimum.

Dude, Monty Williams was coach of the year in 2022.

Now he may not be a great coach, but his suckiness is vastly over rated.

Is he a great coach? No.

Does he $uck? No.

He is the very definition of a mediocre coach.

Cade is the very definition of a mediocre player who has tons of talent and not so much motivation. Wait until he gets paid.

This summer, both will get paid. I doubt there is one Magic fan who does not think Wagner will work on his game like a demon over the summer.

Cade will spend his summer being the poster child of a 14-win team.

Na you're wrong. Fired by 3 soon to be 4 teams. In 10 years, as you put it. He sucks.


What you're doing now, is trying to prop him up to make your case against Cade look better. No one is being fooled....as you can see from the unchanged poll results. Most of the forum thinks that gulf between Franz and Cade is minor...if it exists at all.

I reiterate: if the Pistons had your coach, they win another 15 games. Minimum.

PS: Judging by the response from Orlando fans, I can see this struck a chord. Hence the defensiveness. That's fine. Fans like their own players. Most of the RealGM disagrees, and that's fine too.

[BDM22]

Monty Williams has coached in the NBA for 10 years.

By record, he is the very definition of a mediocre coach.

He has a 10-year record that backs that up.

While surely partly responsible for a 14-win season, not all.

Monty Williams is the worst coach in the NBA. 3 franchises have fired him....soon to be a 4th I'd imagine.

I understand you're feeling defensive about the poll results and Franz, but to place a greater share of the blame of this Pistons season on Cade then Monty is just dishonest. Or maybe you didn't watch any DET games this year too.

The coach is responsible for setting the lineups, making adjustments and everything else lol. If DET had YOUR coach they would've won another 15 games. Minimum.

Dude, Monty Williams was coach of the year in 2022.

Now he may not be a great coach, but his suckiness is vastly over rated.

Is he a great coach? No.

Does he $uck? No.

He is the very definition of a mediocre coach.

Cade is the very definition of a mediocre player who has tons of talent and not so much motivation. Wait until he gets paid.

This summer, both will get paid. I doubt there is one Magic fan who does not think Wagner will work on his game like a demon over the summer.

Cade will spend his summer being the poster child of a 14-win team.

You're wrong on this one. He's horrible. You obviously didn't pay attention to the kind of nonsense he was pulling on a nightly basis in Detroit (I don't blame you). This guy was riding Killian Hayes throughout the longest losing streak of all time. The front office had to literally waive Killian Hayes and trade away Isaiah Livers to get him to stop STARTING 2 total non-NBA players.

He won COTY because CP3 is a great coach and his roster in Phoenix was absolutely stacked with CP, Booker, Mikal, Cam, Ayton, etc.

The ONLY argument for Monty not being a bottom-5 coach is if you operate under the notion that he was intentionally sabotaging this season in an effort to collect the check and get himself fired (since he never wanted the job to begin with). That's it.

[AaronB]

Monty Williams is the worst coach in the NBA. 3 franchises have fired him....soon to be a 4th I'd imagine.

I understand you're feeling defensive about the poll results and Franz, but to place a greater share of the blame of this Pistons season on Cade then Monty is just dishonest. Or maybe you didn't watch any DET games this year too.

The coach is responsible for setting the lineups, making adjustments and everything else lol. If DET had YOUR coach they would've won another 15 games. Minimum.

Dude, Monty Williams was coach of the year in 2022.

Now he may not be a great coach, but his suckiness is vastly over rated.

Is he a great coach? No.

Does he $uck? No.

He is the very definition of a mediocre coach.

Cade is the very definition of a mediocre player who has tons of talent and not so much motivation. Wait until he gets paid.

This summer, both will get paid. I doubt there is one Magic fan who does not think Wagner will work on his game like a demon over the summer.

Cade will spend his summer being the poster child of a 14-win team.

Na you're wrong. Fired by 3 soon to be 4 teams. In 10 years, as you put it. He sucks.


What you're doing now, is trying to prop him up to make your case against Cade look better. No one is being fooled....as you can see from the unchanged poll results. Most of the forum thinks that gulf between Franz and Cade is minor...if it exists at all.

I reiterate: if the Pistons had your coach, they win another 15 games. Minimum.

PS: Judging by the response from Orlando fans, I can see this struck a chord. Hence the defensiveness. That's fine. Fans like their own players. Most of the RealGM disagrees, and that's fine too.

LOL, Larry Brown coached for 8 teams. He is a hall of fame coach.

Williams is a mediocre coach. His 10 year record indicates that.

Anything else is just people's twisted way to not hold Cade accountable for his poor basketball play.

They were a 14-win team with Cade as their leader. Nothing changes that.

He has really good offensive stats by stat padding in blowouts, which were many.

His bad defensive stats cannot be hidden or swept under a rug.

Simply put, he is just not a very good all-round basketball player.

That will most likely continue after he gets paid and the Pistons will have a hard time getting out of the teens in terms of wins unless they do something about their on court leadership.

[Slim Charless]

Monty Williams is the worst coach in the NBA. 3 franchises have fired him....soon to be a 4th I'd imagine.

I understand you're feeling defensive about the poll results and Franz, but to place a greater share of the blame of this Pistons season on Cade then Monty is just dishonest. Or maybe you didn't watch any DET games this year too.

The coach is responsible for setting the lineups, making adjustments and everything else lol. If DET had YOUR coach they would've won another 15 games. Minimum.

Dude, Monty Williams was coach of the year in 2022.

Now he may not be a great coach, but his suckiness is vastly over rated.

Is he a great coach? No.

Does he $uck? No.

He is the very definition of a mediocre coach.

Cade is the very definition of a mediocre player who has tons of talent and not so much motivation. Wait until he gets paid.

This summer, both will get paid. I doubt there is one Magic fan who does not think Wagner will work on his game like a demon over the summer.

Cade will spend his summer being the poster child of a 14-win team.

You're wrong on this one. He's horrible. You obviously didn't pay attention to the kind of nonsense he was pulling on a nightly basis in Detroit (I don't blame you). This guy was riding Killian Hayes throughout the longest losing streak of all time. The front office had to literally waive Killian Hayes and trade away Isaiah Livers to get him to stop STARTING 2 total non-NBA players.

He won COTY because CP3 is a great coach and his roster in Phoenix was absolutely stacked with CP, Booker, Mikal, Cam, Ayton, etc.

The ONLY argument for Monty not being a bottom-5 coach is if you operate under the notion that he was intentionally sabotaging this season in an effort to collect the check and get himself fired (since he never wanted the job to begin with). That's it.

I'm not sure if he's being serious. I don't think he's actually watched Detroit games. He's appears to be a little sensitive to the poll results and is striking back accordingly.

Monty is awful. Anyone who watched the games knows this.

[MotownMadness]

Dude, Monty Williams was coach of the year in 2022.

Now he may not be a great coach, but his suckiness is vastly over rated.

Is he a great coach? No.

Does he $uck? No.

He is the very definition of a mediocre coach.

Cade is the very definition of a mediocre player who has tons of talent and not so much motivation. Wait until he gets paid.

This summer, both will get paid. I doubt there is one Magic fan who does not think Wagner will work on his game like a demon over the summer.

Cade will spend his summer being the poster child of a 14-win team.

Na you're wrong. Fired by 3 soon to be 4 teams. In 10 years, as you put it. He sucks.


What you're doing now, is trying to prop him up to make your case against Cade look better. No one is being fooled....as you can see from the unchanged poll results. Most of the forum thinks that gulf between Franz and Cade is minor...if it exists at all.

I reiterate: if the Pistons had your coach, they win another 15 games. Minimum.

PS: Judging by the response from Orlando fans, I can see this struck a chord. Hence the defensiveness. That's fine. Fans like their own players. Most of the RealGM disagrees, and that's fine too.

LOL, Larry Brown coached for 8 teams. He is a hall of fame coach.

Williams is a mediocre coach. His 10 year record indicates that.

Anything else is just people's twisted way to not hold Cade accountable for his poor basketball play.

They were a 14-win team with Cade as their leader. Nothing changes that.

He has really good offensive stats by stat padding in blowouts, which were many.

His bad defensive stats cannot be hidden or swept under a rug.

Simply put, he is just not a very good all-round basketball player.

That will most likely continue after he gets paid and the Pistons will have a hard time getting out of the teens in terms of wins unless they do something about their on court leadership.

You're just assuming and never watched Detroit. Most the time Cade is facing a double team through out a game

Is there a way to see players who face the most double teams? He's gotta be up there

Theres nothing easier for him playing on this roster

[zaymon]

Right now it may look like Detroid gets more value, but its mostly #1 pick shine still left on Cade and #1 shine attributed to Sarr. The vote can look much different year from now. If Sarr is good than poll looks legit but if he is not that good Detroid got a lopsided win.
Magic wont downgrade talent to risk on upside in such a weak draft. I would say there is about 40% chance Sarr is good enough to warrant the trade but then still Orlando gives up the best player. I dont see anything in Sarr that screams superstar.

[AaronB]

Dude, Monty Williams was coach of the year in 2022.

Now he may not be a great coach, but his suckiness is vastly over rated.

Is he a great coach? No.

Does he $uck? No.

He is the very definition of a mediocre coach.

Cade is the very definition of a mediocre player who has tons of talent and not so much motivation. Wait until he gets paid.

This summer, both will get paid. I doubt there is one Magic fan who does not think Wagner will work on his game like a demon over the summer.

Cade will spend his summer being the poster child of a 14-win team.

You're wrong on this one. He's horrible. You obviously didn't pay attention to the kind of nonsense he was pulling on a nightly basis in Detroit (I don't blame you). This guy was riding Killian Hayes throughout the longest losing streak of all time. The front office had to literally waive Killian Hayes and trade away Isaiah Livers to get him to stop STARTING 2 total non-NBA players.

He won COTY because CP3 is a great coach and his roster in Phoenix was absolutely stacked with CP, Booker, Mikal, Cam, Ayton, etc.

The ONLY argument for Monty not being a bottom-5 coach is if you operate under the notion that he was intentionally sabotaging this season in an effort to collect the check and get himself fired (since he never wanted the job to begin with). That's it.

I'm not sure if he's being serious. I don't think he's actually watched Detroit games. He's appears to be a little sensitive to the poll results and is striking back accordingly.

Monty is awful. Anyone who watched the games knows this.

I am absolutely serious. This whole notion that Williams has gone from being a mediocre coach with a 10-year track record of being a mediocre coach to back it up to being a horrendous coach is complete fiction.

The only difference is the players, Cade being the most important one of the players.

[DiegoChara]

I have no dog in this fight, but the number of players that can turn around an absolutely abysmal situation by themselves is tiny. It’s very fair to say Cade isn’t one of those players.
It’s less fair to say that he’s therefore responsible for the situation.
Just look at a guy like Booker. Labeled a good stats bad team guy until there was a competent team around him.
A lot of what happens on a basketball court is context dependent. Playing on the worst team in the league just isn’t going to bring out the best in anyone. Nobody is giving the same level of effort and defensive focus on a 15 win team that’s down 20+ in the second half. That’s just human nature.

Obviously there’s a bit of a chicken and egg issue there, but I also think it’s reasonable to guess that we’d see better from Cade if he woke up tomorrow and was flipped places with like Jamal Murray.

[AaronB]

Na you're wrong. Fired by 3 soon to be 4 teams. In 10 years, as you put it. He sucks.


What you're doing now, is trying to prop him up to make your case against Cade look better. No one is being fooled....as you can see from the unchanged poll results. Most of the forum thinks that gulf between Franz and Cade is minor...if it exists at all.

I reiterate: if the Pistons had your coach, they win another 15 games. Minimum.

PS: Judging by the response from Orlando fans, I can see this struck a chord. Hence the defensiveness. That's fine. Fans like their own players. Most of the RealGM disagrees, and that's fine too.

LOL, Larry Brown coached for 8 teams. He is a hall of fame coach.

Williams is a mediocre coach. His 10 year record indicates that.

Anything else is just people's twisted way to not hold Cade accountable for his poor basketball play.

They were a 14-win team with Cade as their leader. Nothing changes that.

He has really good offensive stats by stat padding in blowouts, which were many.

His bad defensive stats cannot be hidden or swept under a rug.

Simply put, he is just not a very good all-round basketball player.

That will most likely continue after he gets paid and the Pistons will have a hard time getting out of the teens in terms of wins unless they do something about their on court leadership.

You're just assuming and never watched Detroit. Most the time Cade is facing a double team through out a game

Is there a way to see players who face the most double teams? He's gotta be up there

Theres nothing easier for him playing on this roster

Doubt it.

Most teams single covered Cade and let him get his points and made sure that the other players did not beat them.

This is what the Magic did and I am sure what has gone around the NBA.

[MotownMadness]

LOL, Larry Brown coached for 8 teams. He is a hall of fame coach.

Williams is a mediocre coach. His 10 year record indicates that.

Anything else is just people's twisted way to not hold Cade accountable for his poor basketball play.

They were a 14-win team with Cade as their leader. Nothing changes that.

He has really good offensive stats by stat padding in blowouts, which were many.

His bad defensive stats cannot be hidden or swept under a rug.

Simply put, he is just not a very good all-round basketball player.

That will most likely continue after he gets paid and the Pistons will have a hard time getting out of the teens in terms of wins unless they do something about their on court leadership.

You're just assuming and never watched Detroit. Most the time Cade is facing a double team through out a game

Is there a way to see players who face the most double teams? He's gotta be up there

Theres nothing easier for him playing on this roster

Doubt it.

Most teams single covered Cade and let him get his points and made sure that the other players did not beat them.

This is what the Magic did and I am sure what has gone around the NBA.

lol you're seriously hurt over this