Cade + for Wagner

[AaronB]

I have said all I choose in this thread.

Notice what I have not done is build up Wagner's value to justify the trade. I would rather the Magic not trade Wagner at any price, certainly not to significantly downgrade the talent which is my opinion of Cade, backed by data.

Any team would have to look at a trade that would bring back a superstar, top 5 player in the league. However, I am quite happy with watching Wagner play for the Magic for the next 5 or 6 years, his game is a joy to watch as he plays both sides of the ball with equal determination.

It isn't perfect, but it is pretty darn good.

Likewise, Piston fans, if they like watching a guy that basically plays half the basketball game really well and puts up little or no effort defensively (something that will likely get worse after getting paid), then they should be happy with their guy.

But don't expect much sympathy when you come back complaining after the next 3 years of 22, 20 and 24 wins and say "if we just had a better coach" or "we really need to surround Cade with better players".

[MotownMadness]

I have said all I choose in this thread.

Notice what I have not done is build up Wagner's value to justify the trade. I would rather the Magic not trade Wagner at any price, certainly not to significantly downgrade the talent which is my opinion of Cade, backed by data.

Any team would have to look at a trade that would bring back a superstar, top 5 player in the league. However, I am quite happy with watching Wagner play for the Magic for the next 5 or 6 years, his game is a joy to watch as he plays both sides of the ball with equal determination.

It isn't perfect, but it is pretty darn good.

Likewise, Piston fans, if they like watching a guy that basically plays half the basketball game really well and puts up little or no effort defensively (something that will likely get worse after getting paid), then they should be happy with their guy.

But don't expect much sympathy when you come back complaining after the next 3 years of 22, 20 and 24 wins and say "if we just had a better coach" or "we really need to surround Cade with better players".

Dont forget to check back in next season to compare them

[TPA]

If Cade and Wagner switched teams last season, Cade is an all-star and the Pistons win 10 games.

[BDM22]

LOL, Larry Brown coached for 8 teams. He is a hall of fame coach.

Larry Brown had a hall of fame wandering eye. This is a dude that was literally talking to the Knicks about becoming their coach while the Pistons were playing in the playoffs in 2005, trying to repeat as champs and he was under contract. Great coach but a lot of baggage, which often had him moving around. Totally different than Monty who has baggage AND is terrible at the coaching part. Bad comparison.

Please provide data to your "terrible" coach statement.

I at least brought data.

He has coached for 10 years and brings basically just under 400 wins and about a 50% winning percentage.

This is the very definition of a mediocre, maybe slightly above for longevity.

Where is your data that he is a horrible coach? Waiting ....

Use your eyes and watch his teams play.

The man does not have a single playoff game win without Chris Paul on his roster.

He had a stacked roster in Phoenix and a GOAT tier coach on the floor in CP3 that is responsible for the vast majority of those wins.

If you have no nuance beyond record being the end-all be-all, we can't have a discussion. Next you're gonna tell me Robert Horry was better than MJ. After all, he's got more wins and more rings.

[Slim Charless]

If Cade and Wagner switched teams last season, Cade is an all-star and the Pistons win 10 games.

..... and Orlando is still playing right now. Possibly with a 2-1 lead.

[TPA]

If Cade and Wagner switched teams last season, Cade is an all-star and the Pistons win 10 games.

..... and Orlando is still playing right now. Possibly with a 2-1 lead.

Can you imagine how good Orlando would look if they could swap Cade for Wagner? Like, take the discussion back to a man for man swap. Let's say Detroit's incompetent GM (Weaver) calls and offers a straight up trade, Cade for Mo... I think Orlando accepts that trade immediately.

[orlando_joe]

If Cade and Wagner switched teams last season, Cade is an all-star and the Pistons win 10 games.

..... and Orlando is still playing right now. Possibly with a 2-1 lead.

Can you imagine how good Orlando would look if they could swap Cade for Wagner? Like, take the discussion back to a man for man swap. Let's say Detroit's incompetent GM (Weaver) calls and offers a straight up trade, Cade for Mo... I think Orlando accepts that trade immediately.

you saying mo wagner just says it all...lol

[TPA]

..... and Orlando is still playing right now. Possibly with a 2-1 lead.

Can you imagine how good Orlando would look if they could swap Cade for Wagner? Like, take the discussion back to a man for man swap. Let's say Detroit's incompetent GM (Weaver) calls and offers a straight up trade, Cade for Mo... I think Orlando accepts that trade immediately.

you saying mo wagner just says it all...lol

Riiiiiight. I watched both brothers play UofM ball. Franz. You know what I mean, and you know the point I was making.

[AaronB]

Can you imagine how good Orlando would look if they could swap Cade for Wagner? Like, take the discussion back to a man for man swap. Let's say Detroit's incompetent GM (Weaver) calls and offers a straight up trade, Cade for Mo... I think Orlando accepts that trade immediately.

you saying mo wagner just says it all...lol

Riiiiiight. I watched both brothers play UofM ball. Franz. You know what I mean, and you know the point I was making.

I am sorry, but I have to say a couple of more things.

There is actually a pretty good stat for replacing Franz with Cade. It is called Estimated Wins.

According to Estimated Wins, replacing Franz with Cade would have led to 6 fewer wins for the Magic as Cade is worth about half the wins as Franz. This means that the Magic would have at best played the Celtics in the first round.

According to EW, Cade is about half the player that Franz is and that meets the eyeball test as Cade only plays half the game - no D.

Maybe we should just start typing his name "Cae" because the guy has no "D".

The funny part of all this "imagine if Cae replaces Franz" stuff is that it is just imagination "what if" just like Cae's game. It is mostly imagination.

[AaronB]

Larry Brown had a hall of fame wandering eye. This is a dude that was literally talking to the Knicks about becoming their coach while the Pistons were playing in the playoffs in 2005, trying to repeat as champs and he was under contract. Great coach but a lot of baggage, which often had him moving around. Totally different than Monty who has baggage AND is terrible at the coaching part. Bad comparison.

Please provide data to your "terrible" coach statement.

I at least brought data.

He has coached for 10 years and brings basically just under 400 wins and about a 50% winning percentage.

This is the very definition of a mediocre, maybe slightly above for longevity.

Where is your data that he is a horrible coach? Waiting ....

Use your eyes and watch his teams play.

The man does not have a single playoff game win without Chris Paul on his roster.

He had a stacked roster in Phoenix and a GOAT tier coach on the floor in CP3 that is responsible for the vast majority of those wins.

If you have no nuance beyond record being the end-all be-all, we can't have a discussion. Next you're gonna tell me Robert Horry was better than MJ. After all, he's got more wins and more rings.

One always knows they have won an argument when the other side begins to lie.

Chris Paul did not play in 2 of the wins in the last playoff appearance by Williams in 2023 gainst the Nuggets due to a pulled hamstring. I know that you will use the caveat "on the roster" as your out, but that just means that the lie was intentional.

It was an intentional lie and stupid.

Again, I have never said the guy is a great coach. He is the poster child of a mediocre coach with just a little under 400 wins and just a little over 400 losses.

I get the "blame the coach" part. For Piston fans, the fantasy is that if the Pistons can only replace the coach and surround Cae (the guy has no "D") with stars, then the team can return to glory.

Right now, the data suggest Cae (again, no D) is more of an off-the-bench offensive spark kind of guy than a star. More of a "Simons or Monk" kind of player than a "Franz or Suggs" kind of player.

A "Simons or Monk" kind of player is an important player and the Magic could have used one this year. But they are not the kind of player that you build a team around.

They are especially not the kind of player a team pays a Max salary for and that is precisely what the Pistons are going to do.

[BDM22]

Please provide data to your "terrible" coach statement.

I at least brought data.

He has coached for 10 years and brings basically just under 400 wins and about a 50% winning percentage.

This is the very definition of a mediocre, maybe slightly above for longevity.

Where is your data that he is a horrible coach? Waiting ....

Use your eyes and watch his teams play.

The man does not have a single playoff game win without Chris Paul on his roster.

He had a stacked roster in Phoenix and a GOAT tier coach on the floor in CP3 that is responsible for the vast majority of those wins.

If you have no nuance beyond record being the end-all be-all, we can't have a discussion. Next you're gonna tell me Robert Horry was better than MJ. After all, he's got more wins and more rings.

One always knows they have won an argument when the other side begins to lie.

Chris Paul did not play in 2 of the wins in the last playoff appearance by Williams in 2023 gainst the Nuggets due to a pulled hamstring. I know that you will use the caveat "on the roster" as your out, but that just means that the lie was intentional.

It was an intentional lie and stupid.\

"On the roster". How is it an "out" if you completely understood me. CP3 WAS the coach.

Didn't win a damn thing after CP3 left in New Orleans (he had Anthony Davis and Jrue). Didn't win a damn thing until CP3 arrived in Phoenix. Again, STACKED roster in Phoenix. And then that team goes out and gets absolutely annihilated in games 6 and 7 against Dallas when they were up 3-2. Up 2-0 against the Bucks in the finals then collapsed, losing 4 straight and making zero adjustments.

Killian Hayes, Isaiah Livers. 5-man bench units. Putting Ivey in the doghouse behind future Shanghai Sharks for no reason. All while losing 28 games in a row. Google some of his press conferences where he admits he "never thought" about giving Ivey the ball like 2/3rds of the way into the season. Front office had to have an intervention with him multiple times. He did the same with Mikal Bridges when Booker was out in Phoenix. Drove Suns fans insane. The Pistons FO had to trade away or waive non-NBA players because he was starting them every game.

I've seen a lot of terrible coaches come through the Pistons organization over the last 15-20 years. I've never seen the national media openly criticize the inexplicable coaching moves like I saw this year with Monty.

Dwane Casey was missing Cade Cunningham all last year and Monty managed to lower the win total even though he was healthy this year. Impressive.

He's terrible. Full stop. Not sure who on earth would ride so hard for someone that is so terrible at their job. But yeah, you don't actually believe anything you write about Monty, this is somehow your mission to ride for Franz Wagner in a roundabout way lol

[Slim Charless]

Please provide data to your "terrible" coach statement.

I at least brought data.

He has coached for 10 years and brings basically just under 400 wins and about a 50% winning percentage.

This is the very definition of a mediocre, maybe slightly above for longevity.

Where is your data that he is a horrible coach? Waiting ....

Use your eyes and watch his teams play.

The man does not have a single playoff game win without Chris Paul on his roster.

He had a stacked roster in Phoenix and a GOAT tier coach on the floor in CP3 that is responsible for the vast majority of those wins.

If you have no nuance beyond record being the end-all be-all, we can't have a discussion. Next you're gonna tell me Robert Horry was better than MJ. After all, he's got more wins and more rings.

One always knows they have won an argument when the other side begins to lie.

Chris Paul did not play in 2 of the wins in the last playoff appearance by Williams in 2023 gainst the Nuggets due to a pulled hamstring. I know that you will use the caveat "on the roster" as your out, but that just means that the lie was intentional.

It was an intentional lie and stupid.

Again, I have never said the guy is a great coach. He is the poster child of a mediocre coach with just a little under 400 wins and just a little over 400 losses.

I get the "blame the coach" part. For Piston fans, the fantasy is that if the Pistons can only replace the coach and surround Cae (the guy has no "D") with stars, then the team can return to glory.

Right now, the data suggest Cae (again, no D) is more of an off-the-bench offensive spark kind of guy than a star. More of a "Simons or Monk" kind of player than a "Franz or Suggs" kind of player.

A "Simons or Monk" kind of player is an important player and the Magic could have used one this year. But they are not the kind of player that you build a team around.

They are especially not the kind of player a team pays a Max salary for and that is precisely what the Pistons are going to do.

Na. You're still wrong. Monty sucks.

Numerous Pistons fans and Suns fans have told you this. You'd think you would listen, since we're the ones that have to watch our teams with him. Yet on you continue....

Continue though, you're getting more and more upset with each post. Amusing, since no one is trying to say Franz is a bad player. He's quite fine. You seem to think the board is bashing him relentlessly.

Now, more angry posting from you in 3.....2.......1....

[AaronB]

Use your eyes and watch his teams play.

The man does not have a single playoff game win without Chris Paul on his roster.

He had a stacked roster in Phoenix and a GOAT tier coach on the floor in CP3 that is responsible for the vast majority of those wins.

If you have no nuance beyond record being the end-all be-all, we can't have a discussion. Next you're gonna tell me Robert Horry was better than MJ. After all, he's got more wins and more rings.

One always knows they have won an argument when the other side begins to lie.

Chris Paul did not play in 2 of the wins in the last playoff appearance by Williams in 2023 gainst the Nuggets due to a pulled hamstring. I know that you will use the caveat "on the roster" as your out, but that just means that the lie was intentional.

It was an intentional lie and stupid.\

"On the roster". Reading comprehension. I choose my words carefully. CP3 WAS the coach.

Didn't win a damn thing after CP3 left in New Orleans (he had Anthony Davis and Jrue). Didn't win a damn thing until CP3 arrived in Phoenix. Again, STACKED roster in Phoenix. And then that team goes out and gets absolutely annihilated in games 6 and 7 against Dallas when they were up 3-2. Up 2-0 against the Bucks in the finals then collapsed, losing 4 straight and making zero adjustments.

Killian Hayes, Isaiah Livers. 5-man bench units. Putting Ivey in the doghouse behind future Shanghai Sharks for no reason. All while losing 28 games in a row. Google some of his press conferences where he admits he "never thought" about giving Ivey the ball like 2/3rds of the way into the season. Front office had to have an intervention with him multiple times. He did the same with Mikal Bridges when Booker was out in Phoenix. Drove Suns fans insane. The Pistons FO had to trade away or waive non-NBA players because he was starting them every game.

Dwane Casey was missing Cade Cunningham all last year and Monty managed to lower the win total even though he was healthy this year. Impressive.

He's terrible. Full stop. Not sure who on earth would ride so hard for this guy.

My reading comprehension is just fine and you still lied.

I imagine this will be locked soon as you are a liar who chooses his words carefully. Very simple. This is not a personal attack. It is simply the truth. It is like 1 + 1 = 2.

Your clear implication was that Paul was the "coach on the floor" when, in 2 of their playoff wins, Paul was not even on the floor.

You knew this to be the case and still chose the weasel word lie.

Frankly, these kinds of lies are an embarrassment and ruin the civility of this board.

[Slim Charless]

Chris Paul was the true coach of that team. Monty was along for the ride.

[Texas Chuck]

Quality discussion ended pages ago. TOD 8:19 CST