Orlando - Portland - NOP - Detroit

[jayjaysee]

I liked it a lot more before people pointed out cutting the other teams out. I take 5th and the 30 million dollar TPE here. Can trade Nance and a 2025 first for WCJ. Or can dump Nance and overpay Claxton or Hartenstein with the newly created cap space here.

But I also think NOP wants to get better now and needs to add talent. 5th being out there means NOP’s quantity offer becomes a quality offer really quickly. Despite the talk of how terrible the draft is. Clingan or Topic should be there at 5, mix that with a few future picks and salary flexibility.. you could do Murray for 2 future firsts and keep 5…

yea maybe a better variation is

Orlando out: WCJ, 2025 DEN 1st
Orlando in: Simons

Portland out: Simons
Portland in: Nance, 2025 DEN 1st, 2025 (one of) NOP/LAL protected 1st

Detroit out: 5
Detroit in: Ingram, 21, 2nds/other minor value

NOP out: Ingram, Lance, 21, 2025 (one of) NOP/LAL protected 1st
NOP in: WCJ, 5

I think I’d give a Detroit a future first instead of 21. Understand NOP probably prefers to trade 21, but think Detroit is owed some sort of upside here. Even if it’s top 10 protected for years..

But I like that a lot.

[JRoy]

yea maybe a better variation is

Orlando out: WCJ, 2025 DEN 1st
Orlando in: Simons

Portland out: Simons
Portland in: Lance, 2025 DEN 1st, 2025 (one of) NOP/LAL protected 1st

Detroit out: 5
Detroit in: Ingram, 21, 2nds/other minor value

NOP out: Ingram, Lance, 21, 2025 (one of) NOP/LAL protected 1st
NOP in: WCJ, 5

Who is Lance?

sry meant nance, just expiring filler

Thanks, wracking my brain for a Lance.

[Snakebites]

I don't have 14,18, 34 and WCJ as salary as getting you to 5 which is the value here.

Don't mind this for Orlando.
Hate it for Detroit
Love it for Portland
Meh for NOP. I get this deal for them, but obviously if just the Detroit portion was available I'm cutting the rest of this out. I could easily replace the value of 18 internally. Now I have 5 and a huge TPE and plenty of assets to use to get a center while still having pick 5.

There's a part of me that says "we won 14 games, we should be looking for any kind of potential help".

But then there's also another part of me that's really spooked by Ingram's likely new contract, and the fact that he doesn't fit super well with Cade.

I dunno. Guess we should be choosey beggars.

[tiderulz]

Simons is a good offensive player, but man that defense is just intolerable.

How bad is his defense one may ask?

If one were to filter defensive EPM for players who play more than 30 minutes per game (starters basically) and played more than 40 games (enough sample size), then we see a list of the following numbers as the worst defenders:

-1.3, -1.4, -1,4, -1,4, -1,4, -1.5, -1.7, -1.8, -2.1, -2.2

Then comes Simons at -3.5 almost as an outlier.

If the NBA ever awards the worst defensive player in the NBA at the end of the season, they should call it the "Simons Award".

I think the Magic would rather keep WCJ and just sign someone than take on Simons; contract.

has anyone had good defensive stats coming out of Portland in awhile?

[AaronB]

Simons is a good offensive player, but man that defense is just intolerable.

How bad is his defense one may ask?

If one were to filter defensive EPM for players who play more than 30 minutes per game (starters basically) and played more than 40 games (enough sample size), then we see a list of the following numbers as the worst defenders:

-1.3, -1.4, -1,4, -1,4, -1,4, -1.5, -1.7, -1.8, -2.1, -2.2

Then comes Simons at -3.5 almost as an outlier.

If the NBA ever awards the worst defensive player in the NBA at the end of the season, they should call it the "Simons Award".

I think the Magic would rather keep WCJ and just sign someone than take on Simons; contract.

has anyone had good defensive stats coming out of Portland in awhile?

Thybulle can play defense.

[tiderulz]

Simons is a good offensive player, but man that defense is just intolerable.

How bad is his defense one may ask?

If one were to filter defensive EPM for players who play more than 30 minutes per game (starters basically) and played more than 40 games (enough sample size), then we see a list of the following numbers as the worst defenders:

-1.3, -1.4, -1,4, -1,4, -1,4, -1.5, -1.7, -1.8, -2.1, -2.2

Then comes Simons at -3.5 almost as an outlier.

If the NBA ever awards the worst defensive player in the NBA at the end of the season, they should call it the "Simons Award".

I think the Magic would rather keep WCJ and just sign someone than take on Simons; contract.

has anyone had good defensive stats coming out of Portland in awhile?

Thybulle can play defense.

you could say he learned defense in Philly, but looking at his last 2 years in portland, his defensive metrics have taken a big hit. something about the water in Portland, defense is just not there.

[Texas Chuck]

I'm not trying to sell anyone on any specific player. But if I were a Magic fan I'd feel really good about my ability to have a really good defense next year even if I add the offense the team desperately needs. I believe in that coach and the culture he's instilled. Suggs and Banchero and the boys aren't going to stand for someone to come in and not compete at that end.

I mean just look at my little Mavs since the deadline with a backcourt of Luka/Kyrie and playing elite defense. Magic have a much more established system and while Gafford and Washington were nice additions, these aren't all-defense additions Dallas made. There is no Suggs on the roster.

My priority would be for the GM to go get me a best or 2nd best offensive player and trust my coach and culture on the defense.

[Norm2953]

Skybox has been pounding the table for Simons to Orlando for most of the season.

He may get his wish if Portland drafts Castle with the 7th pick in the 2024 draft

[AaronB]

I'm not trying to sell anyone on any specific player. But if I were a Magic fan I'd feel really good about my ability to have a really good defense next year even if I add the offense the team desperately needs. I believe in that coach and the culture he's instilled. Suggs and Banchero and the boys aren't going to stand for someone to come in and not compete at that end.

I mean just look at my little Mavs since the deadline with a backcourt of Luka/Kyrie and playing elite defense. Magic have a much more established system and while Gafford and Washington were nice additions, these aren't all-defense additions Dallas made. There is no Suggs on the roster.

My priority would be for the GM to go get me a best or 2nd best offensive player and trust my coach and culture on the defense.

I don't disagree with anything that you said. I do disagree that Simons should be that guy. A guy like Russell would make so much more sense. He is just as good offensively as Simons (very close Offensive EPM) but is only just bad defensively.

Simons is not just bad defensively; he is epically bad. If I was the Portland FO, I would pay to get out of the contract. A defensive EPM of -3.5 is embarrassing.

I would much prefer a Monk or Russell overpay than a Simons overpay.

[AaronB]

Skybox has been pounding the table for Simons to Orlando for most of the season.

He may get his wish if Portland drafts Castle with the 7th pick in the 2024 draft

I'm afraid I have to disagree with Skybox.

IMO, the Magic do not need to bring a high-usage player to take shots away from Franz or Paolo or Suggs. They need Suggs to shoot more and Franz and Paolo to shoot better. Given their ages, this is very likely to happen naturally.

If the Magic improve around the edges (upgrade Fultz and Harris for example), which could even be accomplished internally with Black and Howard, then they are going to be much much better next year than this year.

One of the reasons I like Russell is that he is used to playing around high-usage players and succeeding.

[tiderulz]

Skybox has been pounding the table for Simons to Orlando for most of the season.

He may get his wish if Portland drafts Castle with the 7th pick in the 2024 draft

I'm afraid I have to disagree with Skybox.

IMO, the Magic do not need to bring a high-usage player to take shots away from Franz or Paolo or Suggs. They need Suggs to shoot more and Franz and Paolo to shoot better. Given their ages, this is very likely to happen naturally.

If the Magic improve around the edges (upgrade Fultz and Harris for example), which could even be accomplished internally with Black and Howard, then they are going to be much much better next year than this year.

One of the reasons I like Russell is that he is used to playing around high-usage players and succeeding.

Magic need offense, but i would prefer a PG over a SG because I dont really see Suggs as a full time PG. I think Simons would help, he would provide gravity with his outside shooting and overall scoring ability. And if Kyrie can suddenly put out defensive effort, I think Simons could improve his defense with Orlando. But i still prefer a PG over another SG.

[A BETTER DJ]

Skybox has been pounding the table for Simons to Orlando for most of the season.

He may get his wish if Portland drafts Castle with the 7th pick in the 2024 draft

I'm afraid I have to disagree with Skybox.

IMO, the Magic do not need to bring a high-usage player to take shots away from Franz or Paolo or Suggs. They need Suggs to shoot more and Franz and Paolo to shoot better. Given their ages, this is very likely to happen naturally.

If the Magic improve around the edges (upgrade Fultz and Harris for example), which could even be accomplished internally with Black and Howard, then they are going to be much much better next year than this year.

One of the reasons I like Russell is that he is used to playing around high-usage players and succeeding.

Magic need offense, but i would prefer a PG over a SG because I dont really see Suggs as a full time PG. I think Simons would help, he would provide gravity with his outside shooting and overall scoring ability. And if Kyrie can suddenly put out defensive effort, I think Simons could improve his defense with Orlando. But i still prefer a PG over another SG.

I agree that Suggs is not a PG. He's a great SG, but we need a PG that can get to the hole like Fultz but can also shoot 3s when we need them. I don't think the Magic are going to sign someone or trade for a player that is as bad as Simons on D if there are any other choices out there. We are in a good position. We have cap, picks, and we could trade WCJ for the right deal.

[JRoy]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with Skybox.

IMO, the Magic do not need to bring a high-usage player to take shots away from Franz or Paolo or Suggs. They need Suggs to shoot more and Franz and Paolo to shoot better. Given their ages, this is very likely to happen naturally.

If the Magic improve around the edges (upgrade Fultz and Harris for example), which could even be accomplished internally with Black and Howard, then they are going to be much much better next year than this year.

One of the reasons I like Russell is that he is used to playing around high-usage players and succeeding.

Magic need offense, but i would prefer a PG over a SG because I dont really see Suggs as a full time PG. I think Simons would help, he would provide gravity with his outside shooting and overall scoring ability. And if Kyrie can suddenly put out defensive effort, I think Simons could improve his defense with Orlando. But i still prefer a PG over another SG.

I agree that Suggs is not a PG. He's a great SG, but we need a PG that can get to the hole like Fultz but can also shoot 3s when we need them. I don't think the Magic are going to sign someone or trade for a player that is as bad as Simons on D if there are any other choices out there. We are in a good position. We have cap, picks, and we could trade WCJ for the right deal.

You’re a wedding DJ?

Are you in FLA?

[Mr Peanut]

I'd do it for Detroit. We need talent in the worst way, and I don't think the 5th pick in this draft will provide immediate help. If we pick up the 21st pick too we could still draft a rotation player as well.

[Ducklett]

I'm not trying to sell anyone on any specific player. But if I were a Magic fan I'd feel really good about my ability to have a really good defense next year even if I add the offense the team desperately needs. I believe in that coach and the culture he's instilled. Suggs and Banchero and the boys aren't going to stand for someone to come in and not compete at that end.

I mean just look at my little Mavs since the deadline with a backcourt of Luka/Kyrie and playing elite defense. Magic have a much more established system and while Gafford and Washington were nice additions, these aren't all-defense additions Dallas made. There is no Suggs on the roster.

My priority would be for the GM to go get me a best or 2nd best offensive player and trust my coach and culture on the defense.

I am fine with Simons, just not at this price point. The dude is a negative on the court even being a special offensive player. It is one thing to say that Suggs and Paolo aren't going to stand for him, but if you blow all these assets on it, it is too late.

[Village Idiot]

I can see Detroit and Portland just dealing directly with each other. Simons and 14 for 5 works if consummated after the new salary year begins. Simons would be a great compliment next to Cade.

Regarding Simons defense. It's not great but it's not the horror the statheads make it out to be. You have to put things in context. Billups is a horrible coach. As someone pointed out, good defensive players get worse in Portland. The team was also tanking and had like 50 different starting lineups

[Skybox]

Skybox has been pounding the table for Simons to Orlando for most of the season.

He may get his wish if Portland drafts Castle with the 7th pick in the 2024 draft

Been a lot more than this season

There's better fits, like Dejounte, but Simons also makes some sense for POR. I don't propose any trades that don't make sense for both...at least not intentionally. POR's cap situation and their position in their rebuild makes Simons a luxury...as soon as they get competitive, he'll be ready for a big raise based on empty stats and the trade return will be less. Sharpe and Scoot are the future...$25m is a good salary for 25ppg/40+% on high-volume 3pts, but it's too much for a third guard (same situation that led NYK to trade IQ before his RFA)-he's worth more to another team than presently to POR, imo.

Defense is cultural, other than freakish outliers like Isaac, Suggs, Gobert, etc...a coach like Mosely and strong teammates make defensive effort contagious - unless you're just a complete washout like Bamba. ORL fans talk about Simons like he's in a wheelchair defensively but Fultz was NEVER a good defender until Mose got there. Cole Anthony, INGLES? How did ORL manage to survive and thrive defensively this year? Simons is elite athletically, young, and has a 6'9 wingspan...I think he won't sink ORL by himself.

As far as "taking shots away" from Paolo & Franz...that's the point. I can't see how anyone watching ORL all season thinks that handing the ball to a 6'10 guy 25' from the basket and watching is a plan that will take ORL much farther. Paolo doing more or "becoming more efficient" is unrealistic to expect without giving him (and Franz) some support. Simons won't score 25ppg in ORL...more like 18-20 and largely opportunistic...there are very few guys who shoot 3's as effortlessly and effectively as Simons.

He averages over 5.5 assists...he's "PG enough" to work with Franz & Paolo well. That's kind of the point that's been established...a "true" PG like Trae or even a non-scorer, super efficient PG like Tyus will do more to take the ball out of their hands than Simons or Monk, who are really more like perimeter versions of P&F...guys that can score on all 3 levels, drive, shoot, and pass. He plays a greedier role on POR because they don't have a Paolo or Franz...they'll be great together.

POR is, I think, the ONLY team that's down in the standings and also well over the cap. They're a perfect trade partner for a team with lots of cap space and frps (ORL). I like POR's young core and, even if I was a POR fan, I'd be looking to move off Simons and soon.

[Kalamazoo317]

I don't have 14,18, 34 and WCJ as salary as getting you to 5 which is the value here.

Don't mind this for Orlando.
Hate it for Detroit
Love it for Portland
Meh for NOP. I get this deal for them, but obviously if just the Detroit portion was available I'm cutting the rest of this out. I could easily replace the value of 18 internally. Now I have 5 and a huge TPE and plenty of assets to use to get a center while still having pick 5.

I'm curious why you hate it for Detroit. Ingram is probably a better prospect than we're likely to get at #5 and is still young enough. You obviously only do it if you're planning (and feel likely to be able) to re-sign Ingram longterm. Do you not like Ingram's fit on the Pistons or do you not think he + 18 are fair value for the 5?

[Texas Chuck]

I don't have 14,18, 34 and WCJ as salary as getting you to 5 which is the value here.

Don't mind this for Orlando.
Hate it for Detroit
Love it for Portland
Meh for NOP. I get this deal for them, but obviously if just the Detroit portion was available I'm cutting the rest of this out. I could easily replace the value of 18 internally. Now I have 5 and a huge TPE and plenty of assets to use to get a center while still having pick 5.

I'm curious why you hate it for Detroit. Ingram is probably a better prospect than we're likely to get at #5 and is still young enough. You obviously only do it if you're planning (and feel likely to be able) to re-sign Ingram longterm. Do you not like Ingram's fit on the Pistons or do you not think he + 18 are fair value for the 5?

I just don't think Ingram is good enough to move Detroit meaningfully forward and then in a year he and Cade are both on max deals and the team is expensive and still shy on talent.

I know the talk in Detroit is we can't have another season like that and so some short-term thinking is being bandied about, but the suffering already happened. Don't compound it by Josh Smith/Ben Gordoning yourself all over again. I want to keep adding all the young talent I can and then I can spend free agent money on vets to help me win 30 games this year if I want. (I'd probably try and sell space for assets).

[AaronB]

Fortunately, from my perspective, the Magic FO is highly conservative (business-wise, I don't know about politics) and risk-adverse.

They will not bring in a player like Simons, no matter what.

They also have the job security of absolutely nailing 2 of the last 3 drafts and possibly 3 of the last 3 drafts.

I think that Black and Jett are going to be extremely good players, really really good.

Jett was moving so much better at the end of the season than in anything I have ever seen from him.

I think Black becomes a taller Murray much sooner than later.