Det Was swapping for fit

[Kalamazoo317]

Saw this just now in another thread and felt it deserved its own topic:

Duren and Ivey for Avdija, Kispert and Kuzma

Washington gets a young athletic big and let Ivey find his full potential as an on-ball scorer, while getting some cap relief while they rebuild around this year's top pick. Detroit loads up on wings to go with Cade and has the flexibility of chasing a defensive anchor at center and more of a catch and shoot guard with their draft pick and in free agency.

About $32 million of cap going from the Wizards to the Pistons and an estimated 0 win difference for either team on the Tradespo trade machine.

I'd at least consider it for Detroit. Kispert's on a one year deal, Kuzma is three, and Avdija is four but Kuzma and Avdija are both on declining contracts, so it wouldn't be finally crippling even if it's not an ideal fit. And they at least have the potential to work pretty well around Cade and Ausar.

[TGW]

Avdija is going nowhere. Especially not for this package.

[babyjax13]

I have Avdija as clearly the most valuable guy.

[9 and 20]

Wiz pass on this. Remove Deni and one of Duren or Ivey, and it probably works though, from the Wiz perspective. Deni is too important to Wiz to include in a trade like this.

[LaSheed]

Nope it's posted. Sorry Wizard fans a deal is a deal!

[Skybox]

Subbing in…

DET sends: Duren & Ivey
ORL sends: Wendell Carter, Jett Howard

DET adds much improved shooting at two positions. WCJ is already a better defender and a heady PnR player for Cade. Carter is a well-liked, versatile "vet" for young DET, but still only 25. Jett could be the steal of the trade as he has shown glimpses of offensive creation as well as exceptional range. Bigger, better complement to DET's primary ball handlers. Certainly unproven but on a rookie deal and known to Michigan faithful. All of this additional floor spreading potential makes Asaur playable as a swiss-army-knife type without any shooting range.

ORL believes Duren's a raw block of athletic granite that Mosely can turn into a tremendous defender. Ivey is more of a modern Lead Guard, in the same vein as Malik Monk, but younger and potentially with a higher upside. Ivey is not a good fit next to Cade and now Sasser.

[BK_2020]

Why are two teams that won 14 and 15 games swapping players for fit? We are not talking about two teams that have their roster set and just need to tweak. Those teams need everything, and even their future core guys (Cade & Couly I guess?) aren't even locks.

[Skybox]

Why are two teams that won 14 and 15 games swapping players for fit? We are not talking about two teams that have their roster set and just need to tweak. Those teams need everything, and even their future core guys (Cade & Couly I guess?) aren't even locks.

Why are you opposed to it? Are you saying they sit just sit on their hands and root for BOS?

Both of them have some young talent (admittedly ill-fitting) and options going forward.

[nate33]

Deni is not being traded. It's just not happening.

[Colbinii]

Deni is not being traded. It's just not happening.

100%.

Washington values him at a star level.

No team other than Washington would pay star value for him.

[nate33]

Deni is not being traded. It's just not happening.

100%.

Washington values him at a star level.

No team other than Washington would pay star value for him.

Exactly.

Right or wrong, when a young player breaks out and posts numbers like Deni has while also playing top tier defense, teams don't trade them. Everyone continues to value Deni as a useful role player - maybe a 4th starter. The Wizards perceive him as, at worst, an elite role player - a Mikal Bridges/Aaron Gordon type - who might still develop into a 2nd option caliber two-way star like a Jaylen Brown.

And why not?

Deni averaged 19, 9 and 4 on a over .600 TS% over the second half of the season. And he is locked into an absurdly cheap deal for 4 more years.

Maybe the Wizards are overrating their guy. But that's what teams do when they develop their own homegrown talent. Those guys only get traded as part of a package for a star (like Bridges for Durant, SGA for Paul George, Haliburton for Sabonis). They don't get traded for other prospects or picks.

[tcheco]

I will agree with most people here. Deni, although not a star, he is locked in a cheap contract and showed a lot of improvements. That's the guy you keep around. But Detroit can easily have Kuzma for Ivey I guess

[BDM22]

Subbing in…

DET sends: Duren & Ivey
ORL sends: Wendell Carter, Jett Howard

DET adds much improved shooting at two positions. WCJ is already a better defender and a heady PnR player for Cade. Carter is a well-liked, versatile "vet" for young DET, but still only 25. Jett could be the steal of the trade as he has shown glimpses of offensive creation as well as exceptional range. Bigger, better complement to DET's primary ball handlers. Certainly unproven but on a rookie deal and known to Michigan faithful. All of this additional floor spreading potential makes Asaur playable as a swiss-army-knife type without any shooting range.

ORL believes Duren's a raw block of athletic granite that Mosely can turn into a tremendous defender. Ivey is more of a modern Lead Guard, in the same vein as Malik Monk, but younger and potentially with a higher upside. Ivey is not a good fit next to Cade and now Sasser.

No thanks. As a Michigan fan, I don't value Jett that highly at all. He was like a late 1st guy to me. In the 20's. Orlando taking him high doesn't change that for me. Orlando had a desperate need for shooting and offensive creation but he couldn't get on the floor for them. Not a great sign.

And while WCJ is a nice player when he plays, he's also constantly injured and will be an unrestricted FA in 2 years while Ivey/Duren are under team control for the foreseeable future. I'm also strongly of the opinion that the Pistons can't be capping their ceiling for win-now moves. They need all the ceiling they can get and they're sending out by far the 2 highest ceiling players in the deal. No interest in being Orlando's farm team.

Duren is 20 and Ivey is 22. It's wayyyyy premature to move them unless they're either blowing it up entirely or packaging a bunch of stuff for a real difference maker. Or I suppose if they see some perfect fit in a similar type of rookie-deal player (and that ain't Jett Howard).

Pistons can get their floor raising players in free agency. They basically have to spend that money anyways. No need to sell the few assets they've got for it.

As for the original deal in the thread, it doesn't make sense for Washington to move Deni at all. They're going to want far more than market value and this isn't that. They're gonna set the cost at "what if Deni hits his ceiling" and so it's basically impossible to work out a deal for him. The contract and the mold of player being so important makes any Deni deal basically a non-starter, regardless of what you see him becoming.

[BK_2020]

Why are two teams that won 14 and 15 games swapping players for fit? We are not talking about two teams that have their roster set and just need to tweak. Those teams need everything, and even their future core guys (Cade & Couly I guess?) aren't even locks.

Why are you opposed to it? Are you saying they sit just sit on their hands and root for BOS?

Both of them have some young talent (admittedly ill-fitting) and options going forward.

Because there is no point other than shuffling players for the sake of shuffling players?

[Billl]

Washington isn't trading Deni, nor should they. It's not that I think he's a star or doing to develop into a star, but he's the type of guy that 100% of nba teams want to plug in on the wings. 50% from the floor 37% from deep and really good defense. Short of the true stars in the league, that's the hardest and most valuable player to find. And already locked up on a reasonable deal? You would have to offer a major haul for them to even consider moving him.

[Kalamazoo317]

Why are two teams that won 14 and 15 games swapping players for fit? We are not talking about two teams that have their roster set and just need to tweak. Those teams need everything, and even their future core guys (Cade & Couly I guess?) aren't even locks.

Why are you opposed to it? Are you saying they sit just sit on their hands and root for BOS?

Both of them have some young talent (admittedly ill-fitting) and options going forward.

Because there is no point other than shuffling players for the sake of shuffling players?

You must've missed the "fit" part. Rosters that fit better play better. And teams that play better develop their young talent better.
Apparently teams that are bad shouldn't try to get any better unless they're adding all-stars? Sometimes the best way to *attract* all stars or to have tradable assets for all stars is to show you have winning players, which you can't do on an ill-fitting roster.

[Kalamazoo317]

But fair enough. Seems like the conversation has nowhere to go on this one. Seems like the value in the OP is fair, but that Wiz have no need or desire to move Deni for fair value (which I get - I feel that way about a lot of Pistons players). Without Deni, nothing to discuss, imo.

[Skybox]

Subbing in…

DET sends: Duren & Ivey
ORL sends: Wendell Carter, Jett Howard

DET adds much improved shooting at two positions. WCJ is already a better defender and a heady PnR player for Cade. Carter is a well-liked, versatile "vet" for young DET, but still only 25. Jett could be the steal of the trade as he has shown glimpses of offensive creation as well as exceptional range. Bigger, better complement to DET's primary ball handlers. Certainly unproven but on a rookie deal and known to Michigan faithful. All of this additional floor spreading potential makes Asaur playable as a swiss-army-knife type without any shooting range.

ORL believes Duren's a raw block of athletic granite that Mosely can turn into a tremendous defender. Ivey is more of a modern Lead Guard, in the same vein as Malik Monk, but younger and potentially with a higher upside. Ivey is not a good fit next to Cade and now Sasser.

No thanks. As a Michigan fan, I don't value Jett that highly at all. He was like a late 1st guy to me. In the 20's. Orlando taking him high doesn't change that for me. Orlando had a desperate need for shooting and offensive creation but he couldn't get on the floor for them. Not a great sign.

And while WCJ is a nice player when he plays, he's also constantly injured and will be an unrestricted FA in 2 years while Ivey/Duren are under team control for the foreseeable future. I'm also strongly of the opinion that the Pistons can't be capping their ceiling for win-now moves. They need all the ceiling they can get and they're sending out by far the 2 highest ceiling players in the deal. No interest in being Orlando's farm team.

Duren is 20 and Ivey is 22. It's wayyyyy premature to move them unless they're either blowing it up entirely or packaging a bunch of stuff for a real difference maker. Or I suppose if they see some perfect fit in a similar type of rookie-deal player (and that ain't Jett Howard).

Pistons can get their floor raising players in free agency. They basically have to spend that money anyways. No need to sell the few assets they've got for it..

I agree with last paragraph in that it’s not THE MOVE…Certainly isn’t for ORL either…it would, imo, constitute better fits and both teams would still have lots to shop with. Value of all 4 is certainly debatable and dissectable…but I felt it helped both without burning much cap or on either side.

Carry on

[Snakebites]

Wiz pass on this. Remove Deni and one of Duren or Ivey, and it probably works though, from the Wiz perspective. Deni is too important to Wiz to include in a trade like this.

That makes the deal entirely pointless for the Pistons then.

I agree that I don’t think the original deal is something the Wizards would consider though.

[theBigLip]

Not sure if two rebuilding teams are great trade partners since both want young building blocks on rookie deals.

Maybe a simpler deal for fit, like a big for a shooter, makes sense.