Cade + for Wagner

[AaronB]

I have no dog in this fight, but the number of players that can turn around an absolutely abysmal situation by themselves is tiny. It’s very fair to say Cade isn’t one of those players.
It’s less fair to say that he’s therefore responsible for the situation.
Just look at a guy like Booker. Labeled a good stats bad team guy until there was a competent team around him.
A lot of what happens on a basketball court is context dependent. Playing on the worst team in the league just isn’t going to bring out the best in anyone. Nobody is giving the same level of effort and defensive focus on a 15 win team that’s down 20+ in the second half. That’s just human nature.

Obviously there’s a bit of a chicken and egg issue there, but I also think it’s reasonable to guess that we’d see better from Cade if he woke up tomorrow and was flipped places with like Jamal Murray.

If the expectation was to turn around the Pistons, then this is fair.

However, Cade has literally made the situation worse.

They have gone from 24 wins in Cade's rookie year to 17 wins to 14 wins.

That is the exact opposite of turning things around.

[MotownMadness]

I have no dog in this fight, but the number of players that can turn around an absolutely abysmal situation by themselves is tiny. It’s very fair to say Cade isn’t one of those players.
It’s less fair to say that he’s therefore responsible for the situation.
Just look at a guy like Booker. Labeled a good stats bad team guy until there was a competent team around him.
A lot of what happens on a basketball court is context dependent. Playing on the worst team in the league just isn’t going to bring out the best in anyone. Nobody is giving the same level of effort and defensive focus on a 15 win team that’s down 20+ in the second half. That’s just human nature.

Obviously there’s a bit of a chicken and egg issue there, but I also think it’s reasonable to guess that we’d see better from Cade if he woke up tomorrow and was flipped places with like Jamal Murray.

If the expectation was to turn around the Pistons, then this is fair.

However, Cade has literally made the situation worse.

They have gone from 24 wins in Cade's rookie year to 17 wins to 14 wins.

That is the exact opposite of turning things around.

Cadw didn't play in year 2 and the teams been tanking every year anyways

Nevermind bro, Nobody is making this trade regardless

[AaronB]

You're just assuming and never watched Detroit. Most the time Cade is facing a double team through out a game

Is there a way to see players who face the most double teams? He's gotta be up there

Theres nothing easier for him playing on this roster

Doubt it.

Most teams single covered Cade and let him get his points and made sure that the other players did not beat them.

This is what the Magic did and I am sure what has gone around the NBA.

lol you're seriously hurt over this

Actually, when I saw the poll results I laughed.

It was like reading a poll where 70% of the people said the earth was flat.

Based on this survey, Cade is one of the most over-rated players I have ever seen.

Forgetting Wagner, it could be any player in the other spot.

To be honest, I actually feel sorry for the Piston fans.

The Pistons are getting ready to give Cade a max contract and I don't think any fan base deserves that.

[MotownMadness]

Doubt it.

Most teams single covered Cade and let him get his points and made sure that the other players did not beat them.

This is what the Magic did and I am sure what has gone around the NBA.

lol you're seriously hurt over this

Actually, when I saw the poll results I laughed.

It was like reading a poll where 70% of the people said the earth was flat.

Based on this survey, Cade is one of the most over-rated players I have ever seen.

Forgetting Wagner, it could be any player in the other spot.

To be honest, I actually feel sorry for the Piston fans.

The Pistons are getting ready to give Cade a max contract and I don't think any fan base deserves that.

Oh you actually thought Wagner had that type of value?

Yeah everyone else is crazy

[AaronB]

I have no dog in this fight, but the number of players that can turn around an absolutely abysmal situation by themselves is tiny. It’s very fair to say Cade isn’t one of those players.
It’s less fair to say that he’s therefore responsible for the situation.
Just look at a guy like Booker. Labeled a good stats bad team guy until there was a competent team around him.
A lot of what happens on a basketball court is context dependent. Playing on the worst team in the league just isn’t going to bring out the best in anyone. Nobody is giving the same level of effort and defensive focus on a 15 win team that’s down 20+ in the second half. That’s just human nature.

Obviously there’s a bit of a chicken and egg issue there, but I also think it’s reasonable to guess that we’d see better from Cade if he woke up tomorrow and was flipped places with like Jamal Murray.

If the expectation was to turn around the Pistons, then this is fair.

However, Cade has literally made the situation worse.

They have gone from 24 wins in Cade's rookie year to 17 wins to 14 wins.

That is the exact opposite of turning things around.

Cadw didn't play in year 2 and the teams been tanking every year anyways

Nevermind bro, Nobody is making this trade regardless

That makes the pro Cade argument better. /sarc

They actually won 3 more games the year that he did not play (17) than the year he did (14).

[MotownMadness]

If the expectation was to turn around the Pistons, then this is fair.

However, Cade has literally made the situation worse.

They have gone from 24 wins in Cade's rookie year to 17 wins to 14 wins.

That is the exact opposite of turning things around.

Cadw didn't play in year 2 and the teams been tanking every year anyways

Nevermind bro, Nobody is making this trade regardless

That makes the pro Cade argument better. /sarc

They actually won 3 more games the year that he did not play (17) than the year he did (14).

14,17 ,22 its all about the same which is a concern for the Pistons and putting some players around Cade or move on

[BDM22]

LOL, Larry Brown coached for 8 teams. He is a hall of fame coach.

Williams is a mediocre coach. His 10 year record indicates that.

Anything else is just people's twisted way to not hold Cade accountable for his poor basketball play.

They were a 14-win team with Cade as their leader. Nothing changes that.

He has really good offensive stats by stat padding in blowouts, which were many.

His bad defensive stats cannot be hidden or swept under a rug.

Simply put, he is just not a very good all-round basketball player.

That will most likely continue after he gets paid and the Pistons will have a hard time getting out of the teens in terms of wins unless they do something about their on court leadership.

You're just assuming and never watched Detroit. Most the time Cade is facing a double team through out a game

Is there a way to see players who face the most double teams? He's gotta be up there

Theres nothing easier for him playing on this roster

Doubt it.

Most teams single covered Cade and let him get his points and made sure that the other players did not beat them.

This is what the Magic did and I am sure what has gone around the NBA.

Sadly NBA.com has gotten rid of the "court optix" portion of their site which housed these stats, but Cade was the 13th most double teamed player in the league when he was a rookie.

[Ducklett]

Dude, Monty Williams was coach of the year in 2022.

Now he may not be a great coach, but his suckiness is vastly over rated.

Is he a great coach? No.

Does he $uck? No.

He is the very definition of a mediocre coach.

Cade is the very definition of a mediocre player who has tons of talent and not so much motivation. Wait until he gets paid.

This summer, both will get paid. I doubt there is one Magic fan who does not think Wagner will work on his game like a demon over the summer.

Cade will spend his summer being the poster child of a 14-win team.

Na you're wrong. Fired by 3 soon to be 4 teams. In 10 years, as you put it. He sucks.


What you're doing now, is trying to prop him up to make your case against Cade look better. No one is being fooled....as you can see from the unchanged poll results. Most of the forum thinks that gulf between Franz and Cade is minor...if it exists at all.

I reiterate: if the Pistons had your coach, they win another 15 games. Minimum.

PS: Judging by the response from Orlando fans, I can see this struck a chord. Hence the defensiveness. That's fine. Fans like their own players. Most of the RealGM disagrees, and that's fine too.

LOL, Larry Brown coached for 8 teams. He is a hall of fame coach.

Williams is a mediocre coach. His 10 year record indicates that.

Anything else is just people's twisted way to not hold Cade accountable for his poor basketball play.

They were a 14-win team with Cade as their leader. Nothing changes that.

He has really good offensive stats by stat padding in blowouts, which were many.

His bad defensive stats cannot be hidden or swept under a rug.

Simply put, he is just not a very good all-round basketball player.

That will most likely continue after he gets paid and the Pistons will have a hard time getting out of the teens in terms of wins unless they do something about their on court leadership.

Cade is an extremely talented offensive player and hand waving it away with stat padding seems a bit disingenuous. What everyone in here fails to be disingenuous about is that this year he had the 11th WORST defensive rating in the league. I mean he was down right horrible.

[Slim Charless]

You're just assuming and never watched Detroit. Most the time Cade is facing a double team through out a game

Is there a way to see players who face the most double teams? He's gotta be up there

Theres nothing easier for him playing on this roster

Doubt it.

Most teams single covered Cade and let him get his points and made sure that the other players did not beat them.

This is what the Magic did and I am sure what has gone around the NBA.

lol you're seriously hurt over this

He's what the kids call "down bad" for Franz. Or maybe a relative

[MotownMadness]

Na you're wrong. Fired by 3 soon to be 4 teams. In 10 years, as you put it. He sucks.


What you're doing now, is trying to prop him up to make your case against Cade look better. No one is being fooled....as you can see from the unchanged poll results. Most of the forum thinks that gulf between Franz and Cade is minor...if it exists at all.

I reiterate: if the Pistons had your coach, they win another 15 games. Minimum.

PS: Judging by the response from Orlando fans, I can see this struck a chord. Hence the defensiveness. That's fine. Fans like their own players. Most of the RealGM disagrees, and that's fine too.

LOL, Larry Brown coached for 8 teams. He is a hall of fame coach.

Williams is a mediocre coach. His 10 year record indicates that.

Anything else is just people's twisted way to not hold Cade accountable for his poor basketball play.

They were a 14-win team with Cade as their leader. Nothing changes that.

He has really good offensive stats by stat padding in blowouts, which were many.

His bad defensive stats cannot be hidden or swept under a rug.

Simply put, he is just not a very good all-round basketball player.

That will most likely continue after he gets paid and the Pistons will have a hard time getting out of the teens in terms of wins unless they do something about their on court leadership.

Cade is an extremely talented offensive player and hand waving it away with stat padding seems a bit disingenuous. What everyone in here fails to be disingenuous about is that this year he had the 11th WORST defensive rating in the league. I mean he was down right horrible.

Yeah thats not good

Didn't realize he was ranking that low

[BDM22]

LOL, Larry Brown coached for 8 teams. He is a hall of fame coach.

Larry Brown had a hall of fame wandering eye. This is a dude that was literally talking to the Knicks about becoming their coach while the Pistons were playing in the playoffs in 2005, trying to repeat as champs and he was under contract. Great coach but a lot of baggage, which often had him moving around. Totally different than Monty who has baggage AND is terrible at the coaching part. Bad comparison.

[orlando_joe]

Doubt it.

Most teams single covered Cade and let him get his points and made sure that the other players did not beat them.

This is what the Magic did and I am sure what has gone around the NBA.

lol you're seriously hurt over this

He's what the kids call "down bad" for Franz. Or maybe a relative

are you just mad suns have no cap space no picks.no swaps and did not even win as many playoff games as franz magic team? maybe?
sweep and a team of vets?

[Slim Charless]

lol you're seriously hurt over this

He's what the kids call "down bad" for Franz. Or maybe a relative

are you just mad suns have no cap space no picks.no swaps and did not even win as many playoff games as franz magic team? maybe?
sweep and a team of vets?

Nope. I'm not the one reacting with anger here lol. As I said before, this whole thing has pissed a number of Orlando fans off apparently lol.

It's fine. You can like your guy. Don't get angry if ppl have different opinions

[orlando_joe]

He's what the kids call "down bad" for Franz. Or maybe a relative

are you just mad suns have no cap space no picks.no swaps and did not even win as many playoff games as franz magic team? maybe?
sweep and a team of vets?

Nope. I'm not the one reacting with anger here lol. As I said before, this whole thing has pissed a number of Orlando fans off apparently lol.

It's fine. You can like your guy. Don't get angry if ppl have different opinions

only the way you act like the poll is franz vs cade and its not...yet you act like it says franz is worse then cade..that is not what poll says at all..i find you funny..caring about franz so much to tear him down ..maybe i see sarr as wisemen and ausar as nothing maybe a bust you could take him out ..see as wagner better then cade and black and #18 for a wisemen type player not a wemby..me i would keep franz. black and 18? looks better over cade and wisemen...could be wrong just 1 opinion
in a different draft ...almost any other draft ..and if just saying #1 pick ...then sure ..that is why poll is what it is...but what if sarr is wisemen is it good trade ?

[JennetteMcCurdy]

only the way you act like the poll is franz vs cade and its not...yet you act like it says franz is worse then cade..that is not what poll says at all..i find you funny..caring about franz so much to tear him down ..maybe i see sarr as wisemen and ausar as nothing maybe a bust you could take him out ..see as wagner better then cade and black and #18 for a wisemen type player not a wemby..me i would keep franz. black and 18? looks better over cade and wisemen...could be wrong just 1 opinion
in a different draft ...almost any other draft ..and if just saying #1 pick ...then sure ..that is why poll is what it is...but what if sarr is wisemen is it good trade ?

Medication can help in situations like these, take regularly.

[orlando_joe]

only the way you act like the poll is franz vs cade and its not...yet you act like it says franz is worse then cade..that is not what poll says at all..i find you funny..caring about franz so much to tear him down ..maybe i see sarr as wisemen and ausar as nothing maybe a bust you could take him out ..see as wagner better then cade and black and #18 for a wisemen type player not a wemby..me i would keep franz. black and 18? looks better over cade and wisemen...could be wrong just 1 opinion
in a different draft ...almost any other draft ..and if just saying #1 pick ...then sure ..that is why poll is what it is...but what if sarr is wisemen is it good trade ?

Medication can help in situations like these, take regularly.

for what? are you a doctor? or a 5 yr old being dumb
cant accept different opinion ?
or worse did not follow all his comments?

[DiegoChara]

I have no dog in this fight, but the number of players that can turn around an absolutely abysmal situation by themselves is tiny. It’s very fair to say Cade isn’t one of those players.
It’s less fair to say that he’s therefore responsible for the situation.
Just look at a guy like Booker. Labeled a good stats bad team guy until there was a competent team around him.
A lot of what happens on a basketball court is context dependent. Playing on the worst team in the league just isn’t going to bring out the best in anyone. Nobody is giving the same level of effort and defensive focus on a 15 win team that’s down 20+ in the second half. That’s just human nature.

Obviously there’s a bit of a chicken and egg issue there, but I also think it’s reasonable to guess that we’d see better from Cade if he woke up tomorrow and was flipped places with like Jamal Murray.

If the expectation was to turn around the Pistons, then this is fair.

However, Cade has literally made the situation worse.

They have gone from 24 wins in Cade's rookie year to 17 wins to 14 wins.

That is the exact opposite of turning things around.

Correlation does not equal causation. Things have gotten worse for the Pistons. I don’t think that necessarily means Cade has made things worse.

[AaronB]

LOL, Larry Brown coached for 8 teams. He is a hall of fame coach.

Larry Brown had a hall of fame wandering eye. This is a dude that was literally talking to the Knicks about becoming their coach while the Pistons were playing in the playoffs in 2005, trying to repeat as champs and he was under contract. Great coach but a lot of baggage, which often had him moving around. Totally different than Monty who has baggage AND is terrible at the coaching part. Bad comparison.

Please provide data to your "terrible" coach statement.

I at least brought data.

He has coached for 10 years and brings basically just under 400 wins and about a 50% winning percentage.

This is the very definition of a mediocre, maybe slightly above for longevity.

Where is your data that he is a horrible coach? Waiting ....

[AaronB]

I have no dog in this fight, but the number of players that can turn around an absolutely abysmal situation by themselves is tiny. It’s very fair to say Cade isn’t one of those players.
It’s less fair to say that he’s therefore responsible for the situation.
Just look at a guy like Booker. Labeled a good stats bad team guy until there was a competent team around him.
A lot of what happens on a basketball court is context dependent. Playing on the worst team in the league just isn’t going to bring out the best in anyone. Nobody is giving the same level of effort and defensive focus on a 15 win team that’s down 20+ in the second half. That’s just human nature.

Obviously there’s a bit of a chicken and egg issue there, but I also think it’s reasonable to guess that we’d see better from Cade if he woke up tomorrow and was flipped places with like Jamal Murray.

If the expectation was to turn around the Pistons, then this is fair.

However, Cade has literally made the situation worse.

They have gone from 24 wins in Cade's rookie year to 17 wins to 14 wins.

That is the exact opposite of turning things around.

Correlation does not equal causation. Things have gotten worse for the Pistons. I don’t think that necessarily means Cade has made things worse.

You are correct, but it does mean that the underlying factors need some analysis.

Blaming it on WIlliams (who was never a great coach) is not the solution. He is a mediocre coach, not some zombie coach.

Blaming everyone but Cade for a 14-win season seems pretty intellectually dishonest, especially since Cade makes so little effort on defense, and the offensive numbers are clearly inflated because teams do not play as hard on defense when they are up by 20 points.

Again, forget the Franz part of the equation and put any other player in the NBA on the other side of the trade and I will make the same argument.

I am not defending Wagner at all. Just merely pointing out the complete non-sensical position of the Cade supporters in this thread.

Cade is not a very good all-round player, and the results speak for themselves.

[AaronB]

Doubt it.

Most teams single covered Cade and let him get his points and made sure that the other players did not beat them.

This is what the Magic did and I am sure what has gone around the NBA.

lol you're seriously hurt over this

He's what the kids call "down bad" for Franz. Or maybe a relative

You are the one making personal attacks, not me.

As I said, Wagner is not even the issue. Put any other player on the other side of the trade and the argument is the same.