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Kiss of Death wrote:

tmorgan wrote:

Xman wrote:Houston might give #9. And Landale or Tate. Try to fix him like JGreen is looking.

Pg Vleet, Ivey
Sg jgreen, amen
Sf brooks, Whitmore
Pf Jabari, Eason
C. Sengun, Adams

Seems odd. Is Amen already not a PG in Houston’s eyes?

Amen has been so good as a wing that it is hard to see him as a PG now. I think the Rockets will try to find a PG more similar to FVV for the second unit and Amen will eventually be a starting SF/PF.

tmorgan wrote:

Kiss of Death wrote:
Amen has been so good as a wing that it is hard to see him as a PG now. I think the Rockets will try to find a PG more similar to FVV for the second unit and Amen will eventually be a starting SF/PF.

Sounds exactly like Ausar, then.

tmorgan wrote:

Kiss of Death wrote:

tmorgan wrote:
Seems odd. Is Amen already not a PG in Houston’s eyes?

Amen has been so good as a wing that it is hard to see him as a PG now. I think the Rockets will try to find a PG more similar to FVV for the second unit and Amen will eventually be a starting SF/PF.

Sounds exactly like Ausar, then.

Kiss of Death wrote:

tmorgan wrote:

Kiss of Death wrote:
Amen has been so good as a wing that it is hard to see him as a PG now. I think the Rockets will try to find a PG more similar to FVV for the second unit and Amen will eventually be a starting SF/PF.

Sounds exactly like Ausar, then.

As far as rebounding and defense, yes. But Amen also has playmaking skills.

I’m pretty sure that Amen could start anywhere 1-4 and be effective. His defense and rebounding is probably ahead of his ball-handling at this point.

He started at PG last night:

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nate33 wrote:I'd trade Kispert for Ivey.

The Wizards are so far away from competing that they should be willing to trade a useful role player like Kispert for a boom/bust gamble on Ivey.

I'd trade Kuzma for Ivey too, but I'm assuming Detroit wants someone younger.

nate33 wrote:I'd trade Kispert for Ivey.

The Wizards are so far away from competing that they should be willing to trade a useful role player like Kispert for a boom/bust gamble on Ivey.

I'd trade Kuzma for Ivey too, but I'm assuming Detroit wants someone younger.

tmorgan wrote:

mg wrote:At this point Detroit should probably just keep him and hope he starts to live up to his draft slot. They would get pennies on the dollar. He's been disappointing and his position generally doesn't have alot of value unless you are a Donovan Mitchell type. Not to mention there will be a handful of more proven, smallish scoring guards hitting FA or the trade block this summer.

I agree he’s been disappointing, but he isn’t a Don Mitchell size guard, either. Mitchell may be listed at 6’3”, but he clearly isn’t — he just has long arms. Ivey is listed at 6’4” and clearly is that tall, with broad shoulders and long arms (though not as long as Mitchell’s). Heck, the only good element of Ivey’s defense is his shot-blocking. He has horrible instincts, gambles too much, and gets lost off-ball way too often. It’s incomprehensible to me that the son of a college coach (his mom) could be this raw as a player.

But that, of course, is the appeal. He has the physical tools of a star. Who knows, really. At this point, some organization has to think it’s possible to extract value out of players the Pistons keep failing to develop. What’s hilarious is that the Pistons keep thinking they can do that to other teams’ failures. Hasn’t worked yet, not even once.

wemby wrote:

tmorgan wrote:

mg wrote:At this point Detroit should probably just keep him and hope he starts to live up to his draft slot. They would get pennies on the dollar. He's been disappointing and his position generally doesn't have alot of value unless you are a Donovan Mitchell type. Not to mention there will be a handful of more proven, smallish scoring guards hitting FA or the trade block this summer.

I agree he’s been disappointing, but he isn’t a Don Mitchell size guard, either. Mitchell may be listed at 6’3”, but he clearly isn’t — he just has long arms. Ivey is listed at 6’4” and clearly is that tall, with broad shoulders and long arms (though not as long as Mitchell’s). Heck, the only good element of Ivey’s defense is his shot-blocking. He has horrible instincts, gambles too much, and gets lost off-ball way too often. It’s incomprehensible to me that the son of a college coach (his mom) could be this raw as a player.

But that, of course, is the appeal. He has the physical tools of a star. Who knows, really. At this point, some organization has to think it’s possible to extract value out of players the Pistons keep failing to develop. What’s hilarious is that the Pistons keep thinking they can do that to other teams’ failures. Hasn’t worked yet, not even once.

Ivey isn't 6'4", in this photo he's between Mathurin and Shaedon Sharpe, who measured at 6'4.5" and 6'4.25" (without shoes) respectively at the combine, and both look a couple inches taller. He's probably 6'2.5" without shoes

His archetype (undersized shooting guard who's a poor shooter, playmaker and defender) isn't the most sought after and he's already half way through his rookie deal without much to show for, so I don't think the Pistons can recoupe similar value to the pick they used on him, probably late lottery at best. If they want that to change, they will have to develop him better, and that seems difficult with Monty. Not an easy situation.

nate33 wrote:I'd trade Kispert for Ivey.

The Wizards are so far away from competing that they should be willing to trade a useful role player like Kispert for a boom/bust gamble on Ivey.

I'd trade Kuzma for Ivey too, but I'm assuming Detroit wants someone younger.

Skybox wrote:I agree DET shouldn't move him for picks now (or more realistically "pick"). Maybe in a package for a win-now player.

Having said that, I'd love to give him a look in ORL. Wouldn't stop me from going for a proven upgrade like Dejounte Murray, etc at the same time, but, if the price were just a frp or even a frp + a couple of seconds - I'd jump on it for ORL.

How about...

ORL sends WCJ, Cole Anthony, ORL 24 frp, DEN 25 frp
DEN sends Ivey, Duren

I'd say WCJ > Duren at the moment, and plays a much more versatile game (but Duren does ONLY what ORL needs at C-and does it better than WCJ). I could see WCJ, in a more featured role, increasing his points and rebounds considerably. WCJ is even versatile enough to play next to Wiseman sometimes, for a big lineup. I know Duren is a success in DET, but he's a limited role player and DET has a pretty clear frontcourt slate to build on. Cole is basically what Ivey is, but Ivey has (maybe) a higher ceiling. Two FRPs in the next year are valuable, even if used for trade fodder. DET has too many on-ball guys, so moving Ivey out isn't really painful...Ivey wasn't an ideal pick, but clearly BPA for a team starting a rebuild had to be the way. Now, Thompson & Sasser join the list of guys that can play on-ball, along with their designated star-Cade. This trade basically, imo, makes DET better day 1, but also gives a solid return for a quick reset on top of the offensive improvement both incoming players bring immediately.

From ORL side, they actually clear even more cap space (although they face frightening extensions over the next three years. I figure they take a long look at Ivey and hope he works out...but, even if he doesn't, Duren is the kind of physical role player that fits better next to Paolo & Franz (simply banging in the paint, catching lobs, grabbing rebounds, and playing tough D). Duren might be the ideal young, springy piece of Granite that Mosely can turn into a DPOY.

wemby wrote:Yesterday the Spurs and Pistons were playing a bunch of benchwarmers and G Leaguers, and a lot of them looked better than Ivey. He's got the tools to be much better, does he have the desire?

Billl wrote:

wemby wrote:Yesterday the Spurs and Pistons were playing a bunch of benchwarmers and G Leaguers, and a lot of them looked better than Ivey. He's got the tools to be much better, does he have the desire?

yep. When he's rolling, he's rolling. He had multiple 30+ point games this year and as a rookie. When he's not? He can play out of control on offense and his lack of defense really gets highlighted. He's been handed a ton of minutes, but I think he might have benefited more from paying behind a vet and brought along more slowly. He's got all the raw talent, speed and athleticism you can ask for, but he needs to learn to play fundamentally sound basketball on both ends if he wants to be more than a 6th man type scorer.

eitanr wrote:

Skybox wrote:I agree DET shouldn't move him for picks now (or more realistically "pick"). Maybe in a package for a win-now player.

Having said that, I'd love to give him a look in ORL. Wouldn't stop me from going for a proven upgrade like Dejounte Murray, etc at the same time, but, if the price were just a frp or even a frp + a couple of seconds - I'd jump on it for ORL.

How about...

ORL sends WCJ, Cole Anthony, ORL 24 frp, DEN 25 frp
DEN sends Ivey, Duren

I'd say WCJ > Duren at the moment, and plays a much more versatile game (but Duren does ONLY what ORL needs at C-and does it better than WCJ). I could see WCJ, in a more featured role, increasing his points and rebounds considerably. WCJ is even versatile enough to play next to Wiseman sometimes, for a big lineup. I know Duren is a success in DET, but he's a limited role player and DET has a pretty clear frontcourt slate to build on. Cole is basically what Ivey is, but Ivey has (maybe) a higher ceiling. Two FRPs in the next year are valuable, even if used for trade fodder. DET has too many on-ball guys, so moving Ivey out isn't really painful...Ivey wasn't an ideal pick, but clearly BPA for a team starting a rebuild had to be the way. Now, Thompson & Sasser join the list of guys that can play on-ball, along with their designated star-Cade. This trade basically, imo, makes DET better day 1, but also gives a solid return for a quick reset on top of the offensive improvement both incoming players bring immediately.

From ORL side, they actually clear even more cap space (although they face frightening extensions over the next three years. I figure they take a long look at Ivey and hope he works out...but, even if he doesn't, Duren is the kind of physical role player that fits better next to Paolo & Franz (simply banging in the paint, catching lobs, grabbing rebounds, and playing tough D). Duren might be the ideal young, springy piece of Granite that Mosely can turn into a DPOY.

I actually think a WCJ for Ivey swap has merit