Cade + for Wagner

[Ducklett]

Orlando laughs, then hangs up the phone

Wagner has a career EW of almost 30.

Cade, under 10

On Wagner's worst shooting year in his career, he still blows Cade out of the water with a 3.5 EPM, while Cade is under 0.5

Is this thread a joke?

……says eleven people out of sixty so far

I was just gonna say....a joke for who?

Cause a massive majority of this board thinks that the trade Wolveswin made is wildly imbalanced and quite frankly, silly.

If anyone needs to be laughing at this whole thread, it's Pistons fans.

The board has spoken. Not sure what Magic fans are up in arms about. Neutral fans have weighed in on this.... no one is doing this trade.

Do you think everyone is hitting Orlando wins because the number 1 pick is included or because Cade is better than Franz? We have evolved past the OP's trade and went on to Cade/Ausar vs Franz/Black. Why is everyone pretending that the poll says something it doesnt?

[Slim Charless]

……says eleven people out of sixty so far

I was just gonna say....a joke for who?

Cause a massive majority of this board thinks that the trade Wolveswin made is wildly imbalanced and quite frankly, silly.

If anyone needs to be laughing at this whole thread, it's Pistons fans.

The board has spoken. Not sure what Magic fans are up in arms about. Neutral fans have weighed in on this.... no one is doing this trade.

Do you think everyone is hitting Orlando wins because the number 1 pick is included or because Cade is better than Franz? We have evolved past the OP's trade and went on to Cade/Ausar vs Franz/Black. Why is everyone pretending that the poll says something it doesnt?

100%

I've said many times, remove #1 overall pick and it makes sense. The trade you just put forth is fair for both sides, too.

[AaronB]

Orlando laughs, then hangs up the phone

Wagner has a career EW of almost 30.

Cade, under 10

On Wagner's worst shooting year in his career, he still blows Cade out of the water with a 3.5 EPM, while Cade is under 0.5

Is this thread a joke?

……says eleven people out of sixty so far

I was just gonna say....a joke for who?

Cause a massive majority of this board thinks that the trade Wolveswin made is wildly imbalanced and quite frankly, silly.

If anyone needs to be laughing at this whole thread, it's Pistons fans.

The board has spoken. Not sure what Magic fans are up in arms about. Neutral fans have weighed in on this.... no one is doing this trade.

LOL, I hope they enjoy their 17-win seasons, which is what they have averaged the last 3 years with Cade.

Zero progress and they are getting worse - 23 wins to 17 wins to 14 wins.

Multiple coaches, multiple teammates - results the same.

It may not be all Cade, but it is a lot Cade.

Since drafting Franz the Magic have gone from 22 wins to 34 wins to 47 wins.

That is how it is supposed to work.

It is not all Franz, but it is a lot Franz.

Let me just close with this:

Franz's worst year in EPM and EW (his rookie year) are significantly better than Cade's best year (year 3, this last year).

[ConSarnit]

Shouldn't the poll be:

Cade for Franz, what does DET need to add? With options of:

top 5 pick
lotto protected pick
late 1st
nothing
ORL owes value

Wouldn't a poll like this do a better job of determining that value gap between Cade and Franz? All of the other stuff (Black, Ausur, the picks) are just convoluting everything.

I’m not all that convinced a swap of the two makes sense conceptually for both teams either.

Value aside I don’t see what such a deal accomplishes for the Pistons. We have other guards but none with the primarily ball handler potential Cade has.

I can’t imagine the Magic are all that eager to break up their own core either, even though I think the value of this particular deal greatly favors them.

Makes a lot of sense for ORL. Not much sense for DET. ORL needs guard play in terms of ball handling and creation. Cade helps with those issues far more than Franz. I also believe in Cade’s shooting improvement and think that would benefit Orlando. I’m higher on Cade than Franz and think he’s fits in as a good number 2 next to Paolo. Franz, while still a good player, is probably best suited at the 4 and there is too much overlap with Paolo. I think Cade and Franz are equal level players and Cade’s skillset is a better fit for Orlando.

[Dn4sty]

Cade >> Wagner for me.

The other pieces don’t make sense in the deal.

[Slim Charless]

……says eleven people out of sixty so far

I was just gonna say....a joke for who?

Cause a massive majority of this board thinks that the trade Wolveswin made is wildly imbalanced and quite frankly, silly.

If anyone needs to be laughing at this whole thread, it's Pistons fans.

The board has spoken. Not sure what Magic fans are up in arms about. Neutral fans have weighed in on this.... no one is doing this trade.

LOL, I hope they enjoy their 17-win seasons, which is what they have averaged the last 3 years with Cade.

Zero progress and they are getting worse - 23 wins to 17 wins to 14 wins.

Multiple coaches, multiple teammates - results the same.

It may not be all Cade, but it is a lot Cade.

Since drafting Franz the Magic have gone from 22 wins to 34 wins to 47 wins.

That is how it is supposed to work.

It is not all Franz, but it is a lot Franz.

Let me just close with this:

Franz's worst year in EPM and EW (his rookie year) are significantly better than Cade's best year (year 3, this last year).

The majority of the board disagrees.

I think Franz is a good player, but one who maxes out at the 3rd option on a title contender. Maybe 4th option. At his peak.

Cade OTOH, can be the #2 option on that same title contender. He's got a much higher peak and his overall ceiling is higher as well.

I'll grant you that Franz looks better currently but I wonder how much more there is to grow from here. Cade and Franz are close(ish) now, but Cade can get way, way, way better. Idk if Franz can.

[BDM22]

Wagner is a leader on a 47 win team and an iron man. Orlando hangs up the phone.

Right. I guess if San Antonio comes offering that tall dude over in Texas. I mean, his team is bad, right? Must be a bum compared to Franz lol. This logic makes no sense. Orlando likely beats Cleveland if they just swapped Franz for Cade straight up as they desperately needed someone that can create offense for themselves and others as well as shooting. Much less adding in another #1 overall pick AND Ausar.

Orlando's front office, being the good folks they are, would probably call the police to have someone do a wellness check on Troy Weaver if he called them offering this obscene package for Franz Wagner

[Mr Loggins]

unless wagner rediscovers a three point shot, I have orlando winning this in a laugher

[AaronB]

Wagner is a leader on a 47 win team and an iron man. Orlando hangs up the phone.

Right. I guess if San Antonio comes offering that tall dude over in Texas. I mean, his team is bad, right? Must be a bum compared to Franz lol. This logic makes no sense. Orlando likely beats Cleveland if they just swapped Franz for Cade straight up as they desperately needed someone that can create offense for themselves and others as well as shooting. Much less adding in another #1 overall pick AND Ausar.

Orlando's front office, being the good folks they are, would probably call the police to have someone do a wellness check on Troy Weaver if he called them offering this obscene package for Franz Wagner

Perfect example.

If the Spurs go from 22 to 17 to 14 wins over the next 2 years, then I think we should question that big dude's impact on the game.

No way that happens. Why? That big dude plays both ends of the court.

Cade has shown he is not that interested in playing both ends of the court, and this is a terrible example to the rest of the team.

Despite what most Piston fans are saying, the Pistons have talent.

What they don't have is any on-court leadership.

[orlando_joe]

I was just gonna say....a joke for who?

Cause a massive majority of this board thinks that the trade Wolveswin made is wildly imbalanced and quite frankly, silly.

If anyone needs to be laughing at this whole thread, it's Pistons fans.

The board has spoken. Not sure what Magic fans are up in arms about. Neutral fans have weighed in on this.... no one is doing this trade.

LOL, I hope they enjoy their 17-win seasons, which is what they have averaged the last 3 years with Cade.

Zero progress and they are getting worse - 23 wins to 17 wins to 14 wins.

Multiple coaches, multiple teammates - results the same.

It may not be all Cade, but it is a lot Cade.

Since drafting Franz the Magic have gone from 22 wins to 34 wins to 47 wins.

That is how it is supposed to work.

It is not all Franz, but it is a lot Franz.

Let me just close with this:

Franz's worst year in EPM and EW (his rookie year) are significantly better than Cade's best year (year 3, this last year).

The majority of the board disagrees.

I think Franz is a good player, but one who maxes out at the 3rd option on a title contender. Maybe 4th option. At his peak.

Cade OTOH, can be the #2 option on that same title contender. He's got a much higher peak and his overall ceiling is higher as well.

I'll grant you that Franz looks better currently but I wonder how much more there is to grow from here. Cade and Franz are close(ish) now, but Cade can get way, way, way better. Idk if Franz can.

well is sarr wisemen? bagley? or holmgren?

[MotownMadness]

Wagner is a leader on a 47 win team and an iron man. Orlando hangs up the phone.

Right. I guess if San Antonio comes offering that tall dude over in Texas. I mean, his team is bad, right? Must be a bum compared to Franz lol. This logic makes no sense. Orlando likely beats Cleveland if they just swapped Franz for Cade straight up as they desperately needed someone that can create offense for themselves and others as well as shooting. Much less adding in another #1 overall pick AND Ausar.

Orlando's front office, being the good folks they are, would probably call the police to have someone do a wellness check on Troy Weaver if he called them offering this obscene package for Franz Wagner

Perfect example.

If the Spurs go from 22 to 17 to 14 wins over the next 2 years, then I think we should question that big dude's impact on the game.

No way that happens. Why? That big dude plays both ends of the court.

Cade has shown he is not that interested in playing both ends of the court, and this is a terrible example to the rest of the team.

Despite what most Piston fans are saying, the Pistons have talent.

What they don't have is any on-court leadership.

None of our talent fits together as a unit. Its been mostly BPA with no shooting and punting our cap space

[KembaWalker]

Wagner is a much better player than Cade but I don’t blame Pistons fans for not wanting to give up on him yet. Keeps feeling like the guy is 1 click in his brain away from figuring it out

[MotownMadness]

Wagner is a much better player than Cade but I don’t blame Pistons fans for not wanting to give up on him yet. Keeps feeling like the guy is 1 click in his brain away from figuring it out

Im not seeing the way better part though. He looks better defensively while Cade does more on offense. I think Cade passes him up next year.

[AaronB]

Right. I guess if San Antonio comes offering that tall dude over in Texas. I mean, his team is bad, right? Must be a bum compared to Franz lol. This logic makes no sense. Orlando likely beats Cleveland if they just swapped Franz for Cade straight up as they desperately needed someone that can create offense for themselves and others as well as shooting. Much less adding in another #1 overall pick AND Ausar.

Orlando's front office, being the good folks they are, would probably call the police to have someone do a wellness check on Troy Weaver if he called them offering this obscene package for Franz Wagner

Perfect example.

If the Spurs go from 22 to 17 to 14 wins over the next 2 years, then I think we should question that big dude's impact on the game.

No way that happens. Why? That big dude plays both ends of the court.

Cade has shown he is not that interested in playing both ends of the court, and this is a terrible example to the rest of the team.

Despite what most Piston fans are saying, the Pistons have talent.

What they don't have is any on-court leadership.

None of our talent fits together as a unit. Its been mostly BPA with no shooting and punting our cap space

I would agree that fit is an issue. The biggest fit issue problem is Cade as some sort of leader on the team.

23 to 17 to 14 wins.

Anyone who sees that trend and cannot attribute a significant portion of that trend to Cade is either naive or intellectually dishonest.

As I said before, if Wemby has a first 3 years like that, then there is a big problem.

[MotownMadness]

Perfect example.

If the Spurs go from 22 to 17 to 14 wins over the next 2 years, then I think we should question that big dude's impact on the game.

No way that happens. Why? That big dude plays both ends of the court.

Cade has shown he is not that interested in playing both ends of the court, and this is a terrible example to the rest of the team.

Despite what most Piston fans are saying, the Pistons have talent.

What they don't have is any on-court leadership.

None of our talent fits together as a unit. Its been mostly BPA with no shooting and punting our cap space

I would agree that fit is an issue. The biggest fit issue problem is Cade as some sort of leader on the team.

23 to 17 to 14 wins.

Anyone who sees that trend and cannot attribute a significant portion of that trend to Cade is either naive or intellectually dishonest.

As I said before, if Wemby has a first 3 years like that, then there is a big problem.

Anybody whos watched Cade knows he's a team player. He looks to set up his guys before looking for his own when he has to take over.

He can be better but blaming this mess on him when the rest of the roster is G league is a low blow.

He needs to start being more selfish but Cade will certainly play better with better teammates.

Also Wemby is a freak and not really comparable to guys like Cade or Franz. That's All-star potential vs superstar

[AaronB]

None of our talent fits together as a unit. Its been mostly BPA with no shooting and punting our cap space

I would agree that fit is an issue. The biggest fit issue problem is Cade as some sort of leader on the team.

23 to 17 to 14 wins.

Anyone who sees that trend and cannot attribute a significant portion of that trend to Cade is either naive or intellectually dishonest.

As I said before, if Wemby has a first 3 years like that, then there is a big problem.

Anybody whos watched Cade knows he's a team player. He looks to set up his guys before looking for his own when he has to take over.

He can be better but blaming this mess on him when the rest of the roster is G league is a low blow.

He needs to start being more selfish but Cade will certainly play better with better teammates.

Also Wemby is a freak and not really comparable to guys like Cade or Franz. That's All-star potential vs superstar

Cade's problem is not unselfishness.

Cade's problems are that he has little to no interest in defense and that his leadership skills are severely lacking.

He could change that in a minute, if he had the interest,

Let me reiterate the comparison 1 more time:

Franz's worst year in EPM and EW was his rookie year on a 22-win Magic team.

His EPM and EW were still a lot better than Cade's best year, this last year.

To top it off, Cade is getting ready to get paid. One wonders how much motivation Cade will have to get better.

One thing about Franz is that he is a fiery competitor and will not get complacent once he gets paid. That and his brother will kick his but if he ever did.

[BDM22]

Wagner is a leader on a 47 win team and an iron man. Orlando hangs up the phone.

Right. I guess if San Antonio comes offering that tall dude over in Texas. I mean, his team is bad, right? Must be a bum compared to Franz lol. This logic makes no sense. Orlando likely beats Cleveland if they just swapped Franz for Cade straight up as they desperately needed someone that can create offense for themselves and others as well as shooting. Much less adding in another #1 overall pick AND Ausar.

Orlando's front office, being the good folks they are, would probably call the police to have someone do a wellness check on Troy Weaver if he called them offering this obscene package for Franz Wagner

Perfect example.

If the Spurs go from 22 to 17 to 14 wins over the next 2 years, then I think we should question that big dude's impact on the game.

No way that happens. Why? That big dude plays both ends of the court.

Cade has shown he is not that interested in playing both ends of the court, and this is a terrible example to the rest of the team.

Despite what most Piston fans are saying, the Pistons have talent.

What they don't have is any on-court leadership.

If the Spurs hire Monty Williams and start Wemby next to the likes of Killian Hayes, Isaiah Livers, Kevin Knox, etc (most starting lineups of any team in league history), it might happen! lol

Spurs are a functional franchise though, so that isn't likely.

[MotownMadness]

I would agree that fit is an issue. The biggest fit issue problem is Cade as some sort of leader on the team.

23 to 17 to 14 wins.

Anyone who sees that trend and cannot attribute a significant portion of that trend to Cade is either naive or intellectually dishonest.

As I said before, if Wemby has a first 3 years like that, then there is a big problem.

Anybody whos watched Cade knows he's a team player. He looks to set up his guys before looking for his own when he has to take over.

He can be better but blaming this mess on him when the rest of the roster is G league is a low blow.

He needs to start being more selfish but Cade will certainly play better with better teammates.

Also Wemby is a freak and not really comparable to guys like Cade or Franz. That's All-star potential vs superstar

Cade's problem is not unselfishness.

Cade's problems are that he has little to no interest in defense and that his leadership skills are severely lacking.

He could change that in a minute, if he had the interest,

Let me reiterate the comparison 1 more time:

Franz's worst year in EPM and EW was his rookie year on a 22-win Magic team.

His EPM and EW were still a lot better than Cade's best year, this last year.

To top it off, Cade is getting ready to get paid. One wonders how much motivation Cade will have to get better.

One thing about Franz is that he is a fiery competitor and will not get complacent once he gets paid. That and his brother will kick his but if he ever did.

Thats nice but his overall numbers are still around a .9 OBPM compared to a 2.0 OBPM to Cade.

Cade still produces more on that side

[MotownMadness]

I like both of them alot though so i dont want to bash them. They're both AllStars down the line in my opinion.

[AaronB]

Right. I guess if San Antonio comes offering that tall dude over in Texas. I mean, his team is bad, right? Must be a bum compared to Franz lol. This logic makes no sense. Orlando likely beats Cleveland if they just swapped Franz for Cade straight up as they desperately needed someone that can create offense for themselves and others as well as shooting. Much less adding in another #1 overall pick AND Ausar.

Orlando's front office, being the good folks they are, would probably call the police to have someone do a wellness check on Troy Weaver if he called them offering this obscene package for Franz Wagner

Perfect example.

If the Spurs go from 22 to 17 to 14 wins over the next 2 years, then I think we should question that big dude's impact on the game.

No way that happens. Why? That big dude plays both ends of the court.

Cade has shown he is not that interested in playing both ends of the court, and this is a terrible example to the rest of the team.

Despite what most Piston fans are saying, the Pistons have talent.

What they don't have is any on-court leadership.

If the Spurs hire Monty Williams and start Wemby next to the likes of Killian Hayes, Isaiah Livers, Kevin Knox, etc (most starting lineups of any team in league history), it might happen! lol

Spurs are a functional franchise though, so that isn't likely.

Monty Williams has coached in the NBA for 10 years.

By record, he is the very definition of a mediocre coach.

He has a 10-year record that backs that up.

While surely partly responsible for a 14-win season, not all.