Very Simple Trade - Jarrett Allen for Wendell Carter Jr

[JT3000]

Yeah, let's pretend Mobley is the best player on his team and single-handedly transformed them as a rookie. I don't think so.

You're going to have to do better than that. Putting words in someone's mouth and trying to steer the argument in another direction isn't a logical way to retort. At the very least you can try to be consistent with what's being discussed. This just gives me a reason to not take you seriously as a poster.

I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth. You implied those thing yourself. Now you want to backpeddle?

Suggesting that Mobley's potential is "far greater" than Banchero's just tells me you're one of the many folks who don't actually watch Banchero.

I love how you make this claim, and then for the rest of the post, you never once describe what I'm missing about his game that gives me any reason to think he'll be better.

It's not my job to do your research for you. You're just proving my point.

If Mobley's offensive potential is "through the roof," why is he not averaging 20 or more?

You're asking why the third option on offense isn't averaging 20 points or more?

No, I'm asking why he's only the third option. If he's this amazing player with "through the roof" potential" equal to Banchero's, why is he not leading his team like Banchero?

Answer: Because he can't do it. He's not that player. Therein lies your entire problem and the reason your entire argument falls like a house of cards.

At this point I should just block you. Your retorts have been terrible to put it frankly.

Go ahead. You'll be improving my RealGm experience. Addition by subtraction.

Paolo is his team's actual #1 from day 1, not just a supposed defensive anchor who's too scrawny to actually fill that role, and there's a reason why. He can shoulder that burden, Mobley cannot. There's no doubt the Cavs would be worse than the Magic if Mobley were their best player and they had no point guard for the first 25 games of the season (a role Paolo had to step in and fill for much of that time. As a rookie power forward!) Mobley's riding coattails.

What are you implying when you say that Mobley is a "supposed" defensive anchor? Are you trying to imply that isn't the case?

No, sir. I'm not implying anything. I'm explicitly declaring that Mobley is no anchor. Because he demonstrably isn't.

Oh, and Banchero's 250 lbs. You say there's literally nothing Mobley can do about being too small to impose his will effectively, but Banchero literally doesn't have to do anything. He's either too fast or too strong for the opposing player(s), if not both. And he's a 20-year-old rookie.

Again, you really need to stop putting words in my mouth. I make it perfectly clear what I mean in regards to the weight thing, which is that has nothing to do with the skill aspect of what we are talking about. But your retort does give me even more reason to think Mobley will be better. He's already a much better player than Paolo is now despite not even having that weight advantage yet. Now think what would happen if Mobley manages to get to 240 pounds for example? At that point, do you really think Paolo will have any kind of argument over him? You'd be horribly delusional to answer yes to that.

What would happen if Mobley gets to 240? I think you'd be living in the same fantasy land that tells you Mobley is already a "much better player." You're a special kind of delusional. No wonder you think Mobley has more potential. You probably think he has the potential to grow to 9 feet tall too.

I really could care less if I get agreement from Magic fans or not. It'll end up exactly how it did with the Wagner vs Mobley debates where, for a while, a bunch of magic fans actually thought Wagner had an argument over him until it blew up spectacularly in their faces.

What blew up exactly? Wagner could easily be better than Mobley too! It's still arguable for the time being.

[TheLand13]

an MVP potential player does not fold the way Mobley did. PLease tell me how Mobley has MVP potential. Now DPOY, yes, but not MVP. His offensive game is limited and we all know that you have to be an offensive presence in order to be an MVP.

I wasn't aware that how good someone is at age 21 is how they'll remain for the rest of their careers. You do realize how idiotic this argument is, correct?

If he truly had MVP potential he would not be the 3rd option.

This is about as factually wrong of a statement as it gets. And at this point I find myself wondering how long you've been watching the NBA for.

He is a hell of a defensive player and wont be surprised if he does win a few DPOY awards, but he does not have the offensive skills to have MVP potential. Paolo rookie year was on par with Luka, KD, Lebron and other HOF.

Paolo in his rookie year wasn't anything close to any of those guys you just mentioned. Maybe if we're talking their rookie years, sure, but I sure as **** hope you aren't saying their primes. If so, I have every reason at this point to block you.

And doesn't have the offensive skills? He already has a very polished offensive game with multiple methods of scoring. He's excellent at reading defenses already and is a really great passer. The hell are you going on about?

His only major weakness right now is the lack of a consistent jumper, and he already has the mechanics to work that out with time. It's not like he's not capable of hitting a 15 footer. Your arguments demonstrates a clear lack of understanding in regards to his game. Until you actually sit down and watch the guy play (and at this point I'm convinced you haven't), I would advise not talking about him any further.

[TheLand13]

I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth. You implied those thing yourself. Now you want to backpeddle?

No I didn't. All I did was state that Mobley made an immediate impact on his team that was far greater than what Paolo did. In no way does that imply that he was the best player on his team. I don't know how you got to this conclusion but jesus, that's some ass backwards way of thinking.

It's not my job to do your research for you. You're just proving my point.

Actually yeah it is. You're the one who made the claim in the first place. I've given my piece regarding why Mobley is going to be a better player. So far you've done nothing on your end to prove your point. Either do so or admit you're talking out of your ass.

No, I'm asking why he's only the third option. If he's this amazing player with "through the roof" potential" equal to Banchero's, why is he not leading his team like Banchero?

Because he's on the same team as Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland, two guys who are also better players than Paolo is. What kind of question even is this?

Answer: Because he can't do it. He's not that player. Therein lies your entire problem and the reason your entire argument falls like a house of cards.

Again, you're going to have to do better than this. A guy being a third option behind two incredible offensive talents especially in his second year in the league doesn't mean he doesn't have capable offensive talent to unleash. You do understand that James Harden was the third option in his third season in the league, right? What was his highest PPG season again? 38 PPG? I guess he just wasn't that player though huh? Couldn't even get to 40.

This kind of brain dead logic might work over in the General Board, but not here. If you're not going to make a genuine effort, or if this is truly the best you have, then you might as well concede.

No, sir. I'm not implying anything. I'm explicitly declaring that Mobley is no anchor. Because he demonstrably isn't.

We have an entire seasons worth of evidence that literally proves this to be false, not to mention he was a DPOY finalist. You are clearly in the minority on this opinion and you have nothing to back up such claims.

Edit: And now Mobley just made first team all defense. You still want to pretend he's no defensive anchor?

What would happen if Mobley gets to 240? I think you'd be living in the same fantasy land that tells you Mobley is already a "much better player." You're a special kind of delusional. No wonder you think Mobley has more potential. You probably think he has the potential to grow to 9 feet tall too.

Wait, are you actually saying that it's physically impossible for Evan Mobley to ever get to 240 pounds? How old are you? You can't honestly think that me thinking Evan Mobley has a realistic chance of gaining 25 pounds in a few years is a delusional take. That might be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard on this site.

You probably think LeBron was already 250 pounds when he first started out in the league, right?

What blew up exactly? Wagner could easily be better than Mobley too! It's still arguable for the time being.

1. There is no argument for Wagner being better than Mobley right now. Literally none. Whether he has the potential to be better is another argument entirely.

2. There was an entire thread where a bunch of magic fans tried very hard to convince everyone that Wagner was already better than Mobley, and a few of them ended up conceding that he clearly isn't by the time the season was winding down after Mobley had a much better second half.

[JT3000]

I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth. You implied those thing yourself. Now you want to backpeddle?

No I didn't. All I did was state that Mobley made an immediate impact on his team that was far greater than what Paolo did. In no way does that imply that he was the best player on his team. I don't know how you got to this conclusion but jesus, that's some ass backwards way of thinking.

You never implied that he was the best player on his team, but you insist that his impact was far greater than Paolo's... despite Paolo being the best player on his team and the reason for their improvement. This is such a gobsmacking, contradictory lapse in logic that it makes me not even want to read the rest of your drivel. You're either really good at playing dumb or you're not playing.

Third options are roleplayers. Mobley is a nice little roleplayer. Be happy about that and stop overrating the hell out of him. It's giving second-hand embarrassment.

[OrlMagic05]

an MVP potential player does not fold the way Mobley did. PLease tell me how Mobley has MVP potential. Now DPOY, yes, but not MVP. His offensive game is limited and we all know that you have to be an offensive presence in order to be an MVP.

I wasn't aware that how good someone is at age 21 is how they'll remain for the rest of their careers. You do realize how idiotic this argument is, correct?

If he truly had MVP potential he would not be the 3rd option.

This is about as factually wrong of a statement as it gets. And at this point I find myself wondering how long you've been watching the NBA for.

He is a hell of a defensive player and wont be surprised if he does win a few DPOY awards, but he does not have the offensive skills to have MVP potential. Paolo rookie year was on par with Luka, KD, Lebron and other HOF.

Paolo in his rookie year wasn't anything close to any of those guys you just mentioned. Maybe if we're talking their rookie years, sure, but I sure as **** hope you aren't saying their primes. If so, I have every reason at this point to block you.

And doesn't have the offensive skills? He already has a very polished offensive game with multiple methods of scoring. He's excellent at reading defenses already and is a really great passer. The hell are you going on about?

His only major weakness right now is the lack of a consistent jumper, and he already has the mechanics to work that out with time. It's not like he's not capable of hitting a 15 footer. Your arguments demonstrates a clear lack of understanding in regards to his game. Until you actually sit down and watch the guy play (and at this point I'm convinced you haven't), I would advise not talking about him any further.

Nowhere did i say paolos rookie year was as good as their prime years. His rookie year was on par with Luka, KD and Lebrons. Reading comprehension my guy. Not worth going back and forth with you.

[TheLand13]

You never implied that he was the best player on his team, but you insist that his impact was far greater than Paolo's... despite Paolo being the best player on his team and the reason for their improvement. This is such a gobsmacking, contradictory lapse in logic that it makes me not even want to read the rest of your drivel. You're either really good at playing dumb or you're not playing.

How is that a contradictory lapse in logic? Because you aren't smart enough to understand how sports works? Paolo was the best player on Orlando, yes, but he barely made an overall individual impact on the team. Orlando still had one of the worst ranked offenses in the league and still only managed to win a measly 34 games. This is despite Paolo having a historical rookie season. Yeah sure that's a 12 game increase if I remember correctly, but think back to some of the other historical rookie seasons we've seen and how much of an improvement they were able to make on their teams. You still want to pretend those are comparable to those other guys but from a winning perspective, the comparison doesn't hold up. Not to mention, from a talent standpoint, the 2023 Orlando Magic and 2022 Cleveland Cavaliers are on different playing fields in terms of talent. Cleveland had three players alone who were better players than Orlando did. That in of itself says it all. At this point, Paolo comes across as nothing more than an empty stats guy. That's not necessarily fair because it's his rookie season and you cannot expect him to make them a playoff team this early on. But at the very least, I would have expected things to improve for them in that aspect. But again, 26th ranked offense despite his great rookie season. That says a lot.

When Mobley arrived to the Cavaliers in 2021/2022, their defense went from being one of the worst in the league to one of the best. They improved their overall record by 20+ games, and had it not been for injuries, that number very easily could have went up to 30. There's no question that Garland and Allen both having all star seasons was also a major reason for Cleveland's turnaround as well as the three bigs lineup causing matchup problems and Kevin Love's redemption season, but Evan Mobley completely changed the entire team from top to bottom. On top of being another scoring threat, he was already an all defense worthy player in just his rookie season.

There is no way you could possibly be trying to argue that Paolo had a bigger impact on his team in his rookie season than Evan Mobley did based on this alone. Everything that we have to go off of suggests the opposite and it spits in the face of logic to even try to argue that. I know there are some bad apples for every fanbase, but you are giving Orlando fans a really bad name with your off base takes here.

Third options are roleplayers. Mobley is a nice little roleplayer. Be happy about that and stop overrating the hell out of him. It's giving second-hand embarrassment.

What's embarrassing is that we still have people out there who think Evan Mobley is a roleplayer, when that is simply not the case. Jarrett Allen is their fourth option on offense and he's not even a role player. A role player is not defined by what spot they're in on the scoring line. It's all about what is expected of them. Evan Mobley does far too much for the team and is figured too much into the overall game plan to be defined as a role player. The entire defensive scheme relies around him. That alone doesn't make him a role player. But on top of also being the third option on offense, he's also one of their main playmakers and rebounders. There is nothing about his game that suggests he is a role player. But you wouldn't know that considering how it's become abundantly clear at this point that you don't watch the guy play, just like the other orlando fan embarrassing himself right now.

You've made it pretty clear you have no idea what you're talking about. Not to mention, the fact that you chose to ignore the rest of my post is pretty telling. So that's where you're going now.

The ignore list in case you weren't smart enough to figure that out.

Nowhere did i say paolos rookie year was as good as their prime years. His rookie year was on par with Luka, KD and Lebrons. Reading comprehension my guy. Not worth going back and forth with you.

You tell me I lack reading comprehension and yet you don't even catch the fact that I strongly imply that's probably what you meant to begin with. You are right though, it's not worth going back and forth with me. You tried and it's very clear you're out of your depth on this one. Maybe if you actually took the time to study the players you're **** talking, that would be a different story. But my advice to you: don't talk about players you clearly know nothing about.

[Ducklett]

You never implied that he was the best player on his team, but you insist that his impact was far greater than Paolo's... despite Paolo being the best player on his team and the reason for their improvement. This is such a gobsmacking, contradictory lapse in logic that it makes me not even want to read the rest of your drivel. You're either really good at playing dumb or you're not playing.

How is that a contradictory lapse in logic? Because you aren't smart enough to understand how sports works? Paolo was the best player on Orlando, yes, but he barely made an overall individual impact on the team. Orlando still had one of the worst ranked offenses in the league and still only managed to win a measly 34 games. This is despite Paolo having a historical rookie season. Yeah sure that's a 12 game increase if I remember correctly, but think back to some of the other historical rookie seasons we've seen and how much of an improvement they were able to make on their teams. You still want to pretend those are comparable to those other guys but from a winning perspective, the comparison doesn't hold up. Not to mention, from a talent standpoint, the 2023 Orlando Magic and 2022 Cleveland Cavaliers are on different playing fields in terms of talent. Cleveland had three players alone who were better players than Orlando did. That in of itself says it all. At this point, Paolo comes across as nothing more than an empty stats guy. That's not necessarily fair because it's his rookie season and you cannot expect him to make them a playoff team this early on. But at the very least, I would have expected things to improve for them in that aspect. But again, 26th ranked offense despite his great rookie season. That says a lot.

When Mobley arrived to the Cavaliers in 2021/2022, their defense went from being one of the worst in the league to one of the best. They improved their overall record by 20+ games, and had it not been for injuries, that number very easily could have went up to 30. There's no question that Garland and Allen both having all star seasons was also a major reason for Cleveland's turnaround as well as the three bigs lineup causing matchup problems and Kevin Love's redemption season, but Evan Mobley completely changed the entire team from top to bottom. On top of being another scoring threat, he was already an all defense worthy player in just his rookie season.

There is no way you could possibly be trying to argue that Paolo had a bigger impact on his team in his rookie season than Evan Mobley did based on this alone. Everything that we have to go off of suggests the opposite and it spits in the face of logic to even try to argue that. I know there are some bad apples for every fanbase, but you are giving Orlando fans a really bad name with your off base takes here.

Third options are roleplayers. Mobley is a nice little roleplayer. Be happy about that and stop overrating the hell out of him. It's giving second-hand embarrassment.

What's embarrassing is that we still have people out there who think Evan Mobley is a roleplayer, when that is simply not the case. Jarrett Allen is their fourth option on offense and he's not even a role player. A role player is not defined by what spot they're in on the scoring line. It's all about what is expected of them. Evan Mobley does far too much for the team and is figured too much into the overall game plan to be defined as a role player. The entire defensive scheme relies around him. That alone doesn't make him a role player. But on top of also being the third option on offense, he's also one of their main playmakers and rebounders. There is nothing about his game that suggests he is a role player. But you wouldn't know that considering how it's become abundantly clear at this point that you don't watch the guy play, just like the other orlando fan embarrassing himself right now.

You've made it pretty clear you have no idea what you're talking about. Not to mention, the fact that you chose to ignore the rest of my post is pretty telling. So that's where you're going now.

The ignore list in case you weren't smart enough to figure that out.

Nowhere did i say paolos rookie year was as good as their prime years. His rookie year was on par with Luka, KD and Lebrons. Reading comprehension my guy. Not worth going back and forth with you.

You tell me I lack reading comprehension and yet you don't even catch the fact that I strongly imply that's probably what you meant to begin with. You are right though, it's not worth going back and forth with me. You tried and it's very clear you're out of your depth on this one. Maybe if you actually took the time to study the players you're **** talking, that would be a different story. But my advice to you: don't talk about players you clearly know nothing about.

We were the most injured team in the league to start the season, to be fair. That had a huge hand in the win total of the season. There were games were we only had 8 active players.

[TheLand13]

You never implied that he was the best player on his team, but you insist that his impact was far greater than Paolo's... despite Paolo being the best player on his team and the reason for their improvement. This is such a gobsmacking, contradictory lapse in logic that it makes me not even want to read the rest of your drivel. You're either really good at playing dumb or you're not playing.

How is that a contradictory lapse in logic? Because you aren't smart enough to understand how sports works? Paolo was the best player on Orlando, yes, but he barely made an overall individual impact on the team. Orlando still had one of the worst ranked offenses in the league and still only managed to win a measly 34 games. This is despite Paolo having a historical rookie season. Yeah sure that's a 12 game increase if I remember correctly, but think back to some of the other historical rookie seasons we've seen and how much of an improvement they were able to make on their teams. You still want to pretend those are comparable to those other guys but from a winning perspective, the comparison doesn't hold up. Not to mention, from a talent standpoint, the 2023 Orlando Magic and 2022 Cleveland Cavaliers are on different playing fields in terms of talent. Cleveland had three players alone who were better players than Orlando did. That in of itself says it all. At this point, Paolo comes across as nothing more than an empty stats guy. That's not necessarily fair because it's his rookie season and you cannot expect him to make them a playoff team this early on. But at the very least, I would have expected things to improve for them in that aspect. But again, 26th ranked offense despite his great rookie season. That says a lot.

When Mobley arrived to the Cavaliers in 2021/2022, their defense went from being one of the worst in the league to one of the best. They improved their overall record by 20+ games, and had it not been for injuries, that number very easily could have went up to 30. There's no question that Garland and Allen both having all star seasons was also a major reason for Cleveland's turnaround as well as the three bigs lineup causing matchup problems and Kevin Love's redemption season, but Evan Mobley completely changed the entire team from top to bottom. On top of being another scoring threat, he was already an all defense worthy player in just his rookie season.

There is no way you could possibly be trying to argue that Paolo had a bigger impact on his team in his rookie season than Evan Mobley did based on this alone. Everything that we have to go off of suggests the opposite and it spits in the face of logic to even try to argue that. I know there are some bad apples for every fanbase, but you are giving Orlando fans a really bad name with your off base takes here.

Third options are roleplayers. Mobley is a nice little roleplayer. Be happy about that and stop overrating the hell out of him. It's giving second-hand embarrassment.

What's embarrassing is that we still have people out there who think Evan Mobley is a roleplayer, when that is simply not the case. Jarrett Allen is their fourth option on offense and he's not even a role player. A role player is not defined by what spot they're in on the scoring line. It's all about what is expected of them. Evan Mobley does far too much for the team and is figured too much into the overall game plan to be defined as a role player. The entire defensive scheme relies around him. That alone doesn't make him a role player. But on top of also being the third option on offense, he's also one of their main playmakers and rebounders. There is nothing about his game that suggests he is a role player. But you wouldn't know that considering how it's become abundantly clear at this point that you don't watch the guy play, just like the other orlando fan embarrassing himself right now.

You've made it pretty clear you have no idea what you're talking about. Not to mention, the fact that you chose to ignore the rest of my post is pretty telling. So that's where you're going now.

The ignore list in case you weren't smart enough to figure that out.

Nowhere did i say paolos rookie year was as good as their prime years. His rookie year was on par with Luka, KD and Lebrons. Reading comprehension my guy. Not worth going back and forth with you.

You tell me I lack reading comprehension and yet you don't even catch the fact that I strongly imply that's probably what you meant to begin with. You are right though, it's not worth going back and forth with me. You tried and it's very clear you're out of your depth on this one. Maybe if you actually took the time to study the players you're **** talking, that would be a different story. But my advice to you: don't talk about players you clearly know nothing about.

We were the most injured team in the league to start the season, to be fair. That had a huge hand in the win total of the season. There were games were we only had 8 active players.

And like I said before in regards to 2022, the Cavaliers were one of the most injured as well and still managed to increase their record by 20+. I still to this day say that if it weren't for the insane amount of injuries, Cleveland would have increased their record by 30+ games and would have had comfortable playoff seeding. I like Paolo as a player but right now, he does nothing for me outside of scoring. People don't understand what kind of impact Mobley makes on the game, it goes beyond just his defense which was already so elite that he made first team. The ignorance people show when it comes to his game is very telling, and until people stop blindly going off box score numbers and actually watch him, that's going to continue to be the case.

[Ducklett]

How is that a contradictory lapse in logic? Because you aren't smart enough to understand how sports works? Paolo was the best player on Orlando, yes, but he barely made an overall individual impact on the team. Orlando still had one of the worst ranked offenses in the league and still only managed to win a measly 34 games. This is despite Paolo having a historical rookie season. Yeah sure that's a 12 game increase if I remember correctly, but think back to some of the other historical rookie seasons we've seen and how much of an improvement they were able to make on their teams. You still want to pretend those are comparable to those other guys but from a winning perspective, the comparison doesn't hold up. Not to mention, from a talent standpoint, the 2023 Orlando Magic and 2022 Cleveland Cavaliers are on different playing fields in terms of talent. Cleveland had three players alone who were better players than Orlando did. That in of itself says it all. At this point, Paolo comes across as nothing more than an empty stats guy. That's not necessarily fair because it's his rookie season and you cannot expect him to make them a playoff team this early on. But at the very least, I would have expected things to improve for them in that aspect. But again, 26th ranked offense despite his great rookie season. That says a lot.

When Mobley arrived to the Cavaliers in 2021/2022, their defense went from being one of the worst in the league to one of the best. They improved their overall record by 20+ games, and had it not been for injuries, that number very easily could have went up to 30. There's no question that Garland and Allen both having all star seasons was also a major reason for Cleveland's turnaround as well as the three bigs lineup causing matchup problems and Kevin Love's redemption season, but Evan Mobley completely changed the entire team from top to bottom. On top of being another scoring threat, he was already an all defense worthy player in just his rookie season.

There is no way you could possibly be trying to argue that Paolo had a bigger impact on his team in his rookie season than Evan Mobley did based on this alone. Everything that we have to go off of suggests the opposite and it spits in the face of logic to even try to argue that. I know there are some bad apples for every fanbase, but you are giving Orlando fans a really bad name with your off base takes here.



What's embarrassing is that we still have people out there who think Evan Mobley is a roleplayer, when that is simply not the case. Jarrett Allen is their fourth option on offense and he's not even a role player. A role player is not defined by what spot they're in on the scoring line. It's all about what is expected of them. Evan Mobley does far too much for the team and is figured too much into the overall game plan to be defined as a role player. The entire defensive scheme relies around him. That alone doesn't make him a role player. But on top of also being the third option on offense, he's also one of their main playmakers and rebounders. There is nothing about his game that suggests he is a role player. But you wouldn't know that considering how it's become abundantly clear at this point that you don't watch the guy play, just like the other orlando fan embarrassing himself right now.

You've made it pretty clear you have no idea what you're talking about. Not to mention, the fact that you chose to ignore the rest of my post is pretty telling. So that's where you're going now.

The ignore list in case you weren't smart enough to figure that out.



You tell me I lack reading comprehension and yet you don't even catch the fact that I strongly imply that's probably what you meant to begin with. You are right though, it's not worth going back and forth with me. You tried and it's very clear you're out of your depth on this one. Maybe if you actually took the time to study the players you're **** talking, that would be a different story. But my advice to you: don't talk about players you clearly know nothing about.

We were the most injured team in the league to start the season, to be fair. That had a huge hand in the win total of the season. There were games were we only had 8 active players.

And like I said before in regards to 2022, the Cavaliers were one of the most injured as well and still managed to increase their record by 20+. I still to this day say that if it weren't for the insane amount of injuries, Cleveland would have increased their record by 30+ games and would have had comfortable playoff seeding. I like Paolo as a player but right now, he does nothing for me outside of scoring. People don't understand what kind of impact Mobley makes on the game, it goes beyond just his defense which was already so elite that he made first team. The ignorance people show when it comes to his game is very telling, and until people stop blindly going off box score numbers and actually watch him, that's going to continue to be the case.

I think Mobley and Franz were 1a and 1b for sophomores this season, so lets call that a wash. You are comparing a team with three all stars vs a team with a bunch of dudes under 23. Mitchell has more all star seasons than most of the Magic have season in the league. I would hope that the Cavs would have a ton more stability for injury.

[TheLand13]

We were the most injured team in the league to start the season, to be fair. That had a huge hand in the win total of the season. There were games were we only had 8 active players.

And like I said before in regards to 2022, the Cavaliers were one of the most injured as well and still managed to increase their record by 20+. I still to this day say that if it weren't for the insane amount of injuries, Cleveland would have increased their record by 30+ games and would have had comfortable playoff seeding. I like Paolo as a player but right now, he does nothing for me outside of scoring. People don't understand what kind of impact Mobley makes on the game, it goes beyond just his defense which was already so elite that he made first team. The ignorance people show when it comes to his game is very telling, and until people stop blindly going off box score numbers and actually watch him, that's going to continue to be the case.

I think Mobley and Franz were 1a and 1b for sophomores this season, so lets call that a wash. You are comparing a team with three all stars vs a team with a bunch of dudes under 23. Mitchell has more all star seasons than most of the Magic have season in the league. I would hope that the Cavs would have a ton more stability for injury.

Oh for sure. From a talent standpoint, the two teams don’t compare. But Mobleys impact on the cavaliers team cannot be ignored. He’s turned them into the best defensive team in the league in just two years. Jarrett Allen deserves credit as well, but without Mobley being their defensive roamer directing traffic, Cleveland just can’t be an elite defensive team. There have been times where Mobley took over an entire game with just his defense alone.

I can attest to Wagners talent as well as Paolo. But nothing they’ve done so far really compares to what Mobley has been able to do. The difference is night and day and it’s laughable to try to compare the two.

[AaronB]

I wanted to bump this because I thought the idea of trading a lesser value player (WCJ) straight up for a perceived greater value (Allen) made sense if it helped both teams get better.

Generally, the consensus was the Magic needed to add value, even though WCJ was a better fit to their offense.

So now the new season has started and WCJ’s value is probably down due to not being able to stay healthy, but he has been replaced by Goga, who provides everything that Allen would provide at 1/10th the price.

It turns out that this would have been a bad trade for both teams. Good thing I am not a GM.

[Texas Chuck]

but he has been replaced by Goga, who provides everything that Allen would provide at 1/10th the price.

It turns out that this would have been a bad trade for both teams. Good thing I am not a GM.

I agree that if you honestly think Goga provides everything Allen does at the same level, its a good thing you aren't a GM.

Goga has played less than 200 minutes this year. It's always good to have some found money like him especially when a key player is injured, but we absolutely have not established he's a Jarrett Allen level starting center. It would be a really good story if by the end of the year we are saying that, but I think we might hold off a bit longer....

[Skybox]

I think this one could be revisited now more than ever as Mobley looks more like a great Center and Allen's limited game can only be a Center. WCJ provides the beefier, versatile complement to Mobley whereas, IMO, Allen isn't as good a fit. WCJ starts at 4, but plays C when Mobley is out. I've been campaigning for that role being the best usage of WCJ. Allen's value is superior to WCJ, but WCJ might be a better fit and certainly a friendlier deal. WCJ's injury is a negative, but he broke a bone in his finger, so it's not some nagging recurring type of thing. Allen has missed his share as well.

ORL sends: WCJ, Chuma Okeke(expiring RFA but worth a look), DEN 25 frp
CLE sends: Allen

[jbk1234]

I think this one could be revisited now more than ever as Mobley looks more like a great Center and Allen's limited game can only be a Center. WCJ provides the beefier, versatile complement to Mobley whereas, IMO, Allen isn't as good a fit. WCJ starts at 4, but plays C when Mobley is out. I've been campaigning for that role being the best usage of WCJ. Allen's value is superior to WCJ, but WCJ might be a better fit and certainly a friendlier deal. WCJ's injury is a negative, but he broke a bone in his finger, so it's not some nagging recurring type of thing. Allen has missed his share as well.

ORL sends: WCJ, Chuma Okeke(expiring RFA but worth a look), DEN 25 frp
CLE sends: Allen

Mobley doesn't look great as a starting center. He looks okay against some second units. Against other second units, we've resorted to putting TT in there as the center and kept Mobley at the 4. What is encouraging is that Mobley is starting to show improvement as far as his mid range game. If that continues, he's likely staying at PF his entire career.

As far as trading Allen this season, I'm not seeing it, I'm definitely not seeing trading him to the Magic who are a young, up-and-coming team in conference, and there's just no chance it happens for the type return listed here.

If the skid continues in Toronto, the Raps might make that trade for Poeltl.

[toooskies]

I think this one could be revisited now more than ever as Mobley looks more like a great Center and Allen's limited game can only be a Center. WCJ provides the beefier, versatile complement to Mobley whereas, IMO, Allen isn't as good a fit. WCJ starts at 4, but plays C when Mobley is out. I've been campaigning for that role being the best usage of WCJ. Allen's value is superior to WCJ, but WCJ might be a better fit and certainly a friendlier deal. WCJ's injury is a negative, but he broke a bone in his finger, so it's not some nagging recurring type of thing. Allen has missed his share as well.

ORL sends: WCJ, Chuma Okeke(expiring RFA but worth a look), DEN 25 frp
CLE sends: Allen

Yeah, you haven't watched the Cavs if you think Mobley and Allen look like they're limiting each other; if anything they typically play really well off of each other. They're both excellent passers for bigs and know how to get the ball to each other.

The lineup data backs that up.

Last year, the Cavs were +8.1 per 100 possessions with both Mobley and Allen on the court; Mobley individually was +6.9, Allen +7.9.

Playoffs? Mobley and Allen were +0.5 together; Mobley individually -1.4, Allen -6.3. They are better together than with only one of them on the court, even in a series they both played poorly.

2021-22? +4.7 with both, higher than the +2.1 and +4.4 for Mobley and Allen individually. (Mobley's +/- crashed at the end of the year when Allen hurt his hand and had to play full-time center.)

This year, Mobley and Allen are +10.7 when on the floor together, as opposed to the Cavs' +0.7 overall. Mobley individually is +2.3, Allen 10.0. Once again, better together than with only one of them on the court.

The Cavs could really use a respectable third big to keep the team stable when one of them is off the court, though, and if WCJ's value is low, I'd be happy for the Cavs to make room for him.

WCJ for Niang, Rubio, and some 2nds after Dec 15th?

[AaronB]

but he has been replaced by Goga, who provides everything that Allen would provide at 1/10th the price.

It turns out that this would have been a bad trade for both teams. Good thing I am not a GM.

I agree that if you honestly think Goga provides everything Allen does at the same level, its a good thing you aren't a GM.

Goga has played less than 200 minutes this year. It's always good to have some found money like him especially when a key player is injured, but we absolutely have not established he's a Jarrett Allen level starting center. It would be a really good story if by the end of the year we are saying that, but I think we might hold off a bit longer....

One can always tell how intelligent a post is going to be by how many times “we” shows up in the post. 3 times is a Fail

WRT the content, can’t help but notice that in the latest EPM, Goga is ranked 34th and Allen 58th. Things will change, but his performance has legs.

[Skybox]

I think this one could be revisited now more than ever as Mobley looks more like a great Center and Allen's limited game can only be a Center. WCJ provides the beefier, versatile complement to Mobley whereas, IMO, Allen isn't as good a fit. WCJ starts at 4, but plays C when Mobley is out. I've been campaigning for that role being the best usage of WCJ. Allen's value is superior to WCJ, but WCJ might be a better fit and certainly a friendlier deal. WCJ's injury is a negative, but he broke a bone in his finger, so it's not some nagging recurring type of thing. Allen has missed his share as well.

ORL sends: WCJ, Chuma Okeke(expiring RFA but worth a look), DEN 25 frp
CLE sends: Allen

Yeah, you haven't watched the Cavs if you think Mobley and Allen look like they're limiting each other; if anything they typically play really well off of each other. They're both excellent passers for bigs and know how to get the ball to each other.

The lineup data backs that up.

Last year, the Cavs were +8.1 per 100 possessions with both Mobley and Allen on the court; Mobley individually was +6.9, Allen +7.9.

Playoffs? Mobley and Allen were +0.5 together; Mobley individually -1.4, Allen -6.3. They are better together than with only one of them on the court, even in a series they both played poorly.

2021-22? +4.7 with both, higher than the +2.1 and +4.4 for Mobley and Allen individually. (Mobley's +/- crashed at the end of the year when Allen hurt his hand and had to play full-time center.)

This year, Mobley and Allen are +10.7 when on the floor together, as opposed to the Cavs' +0.7 overall. Mobley individually is +2.3, Allen 10.0. Once again, better together than with only one of them on the court.

The Cavs could really use a respectable third big to keep the team stable when one of them is off the court, though, and if WCJ's value is low, I'd be happy for the Cavs to make room for him.

WCJ for Niang, Rubio, and some 2nds after Dec 15th?

No chance of that. WCJ is more than good for ORL. Just would prefer a classic rim-runner, rim-protector like Allen. WCJ is really versatile (maybe more than needed next to Paolo & Franz)-that's definitely not a drawback, just thought WCJ might be a better fit elsewhere...Ideally, ORL could get a guy like Allen or Claxton and have WCJ back up 4 & 5, still playing significant minutes. I thought I'd heard/read that, in Allen's absence, they were seeing that Mobley really is much more at home at 5. Glad to hear that's not true-having two young 7 footers playing well together is a nice foundation...we'll see if the two 6 footers can coexist as well for you.

[Texas Chuck]

but he has been replaced by Goga, who provides everything that Allen would provide at 1/10th the price.

It turns out that this would have been a bad trade for both teams. Good thing I am not a GM.

I agree that if you honestly think Goga provides everything Allen does at the same level, its a good thing you aren't a GM.

Goga has played less than 200 minutes this year. It's always good to have some found money like him especially when a key player is injured, but we absolutely have not established he's a Jarrett Allen level starting center. It would be a really good story if by the end of the year we are saying that, but I think we might hold off a bit longer....

One can always tell how intelligent a post is going to be by how many times “we” shows up in the post. 3 times is a Fail

WRT the content, can’t help but notice that in the latest EPM, Goga is ranked 34th and Allen 58th. Things will change, but his performance has legs.

I love this strategy to arbitrarily dismiss any opinion that doesn't match yours.

[AaronB]

I agree that if you honestly think Goga provides everything Allen does at the same level, its a good thing you aren't a GM.

Goga has played less than 200 minutes this year. It's always good to have some found money like him especially when a key player is injured, but we absolutely have not established he's a Jarrett Allen level starting center. It would be a really good story if by the end of the year we are saying that, but I think we might hold off a bit longer....

One can always tell how intelligent a post is going to be by how many times “we” shows up in the post. 3 times is a Fail

WRT the content, can’t help but notice that in the latest EPM, Goga is ranked 34th and Allen 58th. Things will change, but his performance has legs.

I love this strategy to arbitrarily dismiss any opinion that doesn't match yours.

You are learning Tex. At least there are no “we’s”

[Residual-Heat]

I think this one could be revisited now more than ever as Mobley looks more like a great Center and Allen's limited game can only be a Center. WCJ provides the beefier, versatile complement to Mobley whereas, IMO, Allen isn't as good a fit. WCJ starts at 4, but plays C when Mobley is out. I've been campaigning for that role being the best usage of WCJ. Allen's value is superior to WCJ, but WCJ might be a better fit and certainly a friendlier deal. WCJ's injury is a negative, but he broke a bone in his finger, so it's not some nagging recurring type of thing. Allen has missed his share as well.

ORL sends: WCJ, Chuma Okeke(expiring RFA but worth a look), DEN 25 frp
CLE sends: Allen

Yeah, you haven't watched the Cavs if you think Mobley and Allen look like they're limiting each other; if anything they typically play really well off of each other. They're both excellent passers for bigs and know how to get the ball to each other.

The lineup data backs that up.

Last year, the Cavs were +8.1 per 100 possessions with both Mobley and Allen on the court; Mobley individually was +6.9, Allen +7.9.

Playoffs? Mobley and Allen were +0.5 together; Mobley individually -1.4, Allen -6.3. They are better together than with only one of them on the court, even in a series they both played poorly.

2021-22? +4.7 with both, higher than the +2.1 and +4.4 for Mobley and Allen individually. (Mobley's +/- crashed at the end of the year when Allen hurt his hand and had to play full-time center.)

This year, Mobley and Allen are +10.7 when on the floor together, as opposed to the Cavs' +0.7 overall. Mobley individually is +2.3, Allen 10.0. Once again, better together than with only one of them on the court.

The Cavs could really use a respectable third big to keep the team stable when one of them is off the court, though, and if WCJ's value is low, I'd be happy for the Cavs to make room for him.

WCJ for Niang, Rubio, and some 2nds after Dec 15th?

No way does that get you WCJ. Not sure that even gets you Mo Wagner TBH

The Magic arent going to just dump him, but if they were to trade him I would expect OKC to make an offer. He would be a perfect fit next to Chet IMO.