NYK-SAC-CLE-ORL
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ecuhus1981
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^
That would imply giving James to CLE, which would totally kill it for them. Hughes sucks, but he's better than TWO stiffs with contracts just as long.
Overall, I have heard a few cogent responses (props to loserX and chriswebb86), and a bunch of knee-jerk reactions.
Orlando fans: Be real with me. I KNOW YOU HAVE BEEN INUNDATED WITH CRAWFORD PROPOSALS. But I feel you're being a little unrealistic about this one, based upon ill will toward previously proposed deals. You trade an aging C who is completely useless this year, a soft PF on a 3-year deal who hasn't worked out for the Magic so far, plus a pair of combo guards who don't see significant PT in the merry-go-round SG rotation. Thomas is an upgrade to Battie because he will actually play. Shannon Brown is a better defender than Redick, and he and Mo would make an exciting duo off the bench. Others may disagree, but I feel that Randolph Morris is better than what will likely be a 25-30 1st-round pick in the future. He is a true C with a nice low-post game, and was a former AAU teammate of Howard.
SO, it essentially boils down to "Cook+Dooling for Crawford". ORL loses some cap flexibility, but they are so far ahead in each of the other sections of this trade, that any perceived loss here should be a wash.
As for SAC... you may not be getting one elite young player, but you get 3 (possibly 4, later) quality youngsters. Cedric Simmons is exactly the type of defensive PF that Kings fans have been talking about wanting to acquire alongside Hawes. He's an athletic freak, rebounds like a demon, and has one of the best block rates in the NBA. People may put too much credence in NOH dumping his contract; they bailed out on Bass too, and look how he's turned out for Dallas. LoserX is spot-on btw, this deal would save the Kings from the luxury tax next year. If Blake got the full MLE last summer, you can depend on someone offering at least a majority of it for Udrih.
I would like to hear more response from NYK and CLE fans, but I truly feel that ORL and SAC should be the last teams complaining about this trade.
That would imply giving James to CLE, which would totally kill it for them. Hughes sucks, but he's better than TWO stiffs with contracts just as long.
Overall, I have heard a few cogent responses (props to loserX and chriswebb86), and a bunch of knee-jerk reactions.
Orlando fans: Be real with me. I KNOW YOU HAVE BEEN INUNDATED WITH CRAWFORD PROPOSALS. But I feel you're being a little unrealistic about this one, based upon ill will toward previously proposed deals. You trade an aging C who is completely useless this year, a soft PF on a 3-year deal who hasn't worked out for the Magic so far, plus a pair of combo guards who don't see significant PT in the merry-go-round SG rotation. Thomas is an upgrade to Battie because he will actually play. Shannon Brown is a better defender than Redick, and he and Mo would make an exciting duo off the bench. Others may disagree, but I feel that Randolph Morris is better than what will likely be a 25-30 1st-round pick in the future. He is a true C with a nice low-post game, and was a former AAU teammate of Howard.
SO, it essentially boils down to "Cook+Dooling for Crawford". ORL loses some cap flexibility, but they are so far ahead in each of the other sections of this trade, that any perceived loss here should be a wash.
As for SAC... you may not be getting one elite young player, but you get 3 (possibly 4, later) quality youngsters. Cedric Simmons is exactly the type of defensive PF that Kings fans have been talking about wanting to acquire alongside Hawes. He's an athletic freak, rebounds like a demon, and has one of the best block rates in the NBA. People may put too much credence in NOH dumping his contract; they bailed out on Bass too, and look how he's turned out for Dallas. LoserX is spot-on btw, this deal would save the Kings from the luxury tax next year. If Blake got the full MLE last summer, you can depend on someone offering at least a majority of it for Udrih.
I would like to hear more response from NYK and CLE fans, but I truly feel that ORL and SAC should be the last teams complaining about this trade.
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DanTown8587
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Do Knick fans truly believe they can get Ron Artest and not give up David Lee? And by the way, Shannon Brown is an expiring rookie who makes no sense to trade for because Cleveland is not gonna re-sign him (why would you decline an option then resign the guy for more money?), so just let the guy leave, have him sign with you and you are done.
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SacKingZZZ
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loserX wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
The cap is not the only financial watermark that counts. The Kings are going to plow into the luxury tax next year...they're almost there now, and if they keep Artest, Kevin Martin's extension is going to be almost entirely in the tax costing them double (plus payments to whomever they use to fill out the roster...Udrih/Watkins/Justin Williams/players from other teams).
You get 3 young players of varying levels of ability AND a first for Artest, plus KT's contract disappears, saving the team possibly $36M or more. If you don't think that matters, I don't know what to tell you.
Pretty much, that and the Kings are not really in the best position to be re-signing too many guys to long term contracts. That's how you secure yourself to mediocrity for far too long.
I think the deal is more than fair.
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SacKingZZZ
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loserX wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Are you sure? Shamsports (which isn't always right) has the team at $64.5M next year with Artest in. (The tax this year was $67M, if anyone's wondering.)
But Martin's extension isn't added yet...that's about $11M, right? So even if Artest opts out, they'll be several million into the tax with Martin and the roster fill-outs. If Artest stays, it'll be even more (since anything above what he already makes will be doubled).
Do you have info very different from Shamsports'?
No, I think you're right but I don't think the Maloofs would mind paying the tax for maybe a year if they were doing something they felt was the best for the long term future of the team. Now signing Ron long term could land them into perrenial tax team territory where I am sure they don't want to be with a lottery team full of young developing player stuck behind aging vets.
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ecuhus1981
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First, I'm not a Knicks fan. At all. But I do believe there is plenty of possibility for a Lee-less Artest deal. We know Ron is a 1-time All-Star and elite defender, but even at his sanest, we're not talking about a superstar. Look at what PHI got for Iverson; Sacramento can play the waiting game until the cows come home. They will not get a better deal for Ron than PHI got for Allen.
About Shannon Brown: Cleveland does not have a role for him right now. They still could choose to re-sign him, and they know he'll likely command less via free agency than the 3rd year of his rookie deal would've cost them. It's a similar situation with POB, Gerald Green and Antoine Wright. It's a gamble for their teams, but it certainly doesn't mean these kids are worthless just because their options aren't picked up. ORL could use him now, and if he finds a role, he would want to re-sign there.
About Shannon Brown: Cleveland does not have a role for him right now. They still could choose to re-sign him, and they know he'll likely command less via free agency than the 3rd year of his rookie deal would've cost them. It's a similar situation with POB, Gerald Green and Antoine Wright. It's a gamble for their teams, but it certainly doesn't mean these kids are worthless just because their options aren't picked up. ORL could use him now, and if he finds a role, he would want to re-sign there.
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Sardonic
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Hughes has been a bust in Cleveland but from some unknown reason as a starting point guard over the past two seasons and playoffs the Cavs record is something like 35-13 (including 6-1 this year since being switched back to PG). Snow, Jones and Gibson just don't get the job done starting.
I just can't see them tanking the season when a home court playoff series is a distinct possibility and making this move would make them far worse because Gibson just isn't ready to start at point guard and both Snow and Jones are just incapable of being effective starters at this stage of their respective careers.
Now if another trade was lined up to get just a slightly better point guard then they have on the roster now then I think they would happily make a move like this one.
I just can't see them tanking the season when a home court playoff series is a distinct possibility and making this move would make them far worse because Gibson just isn't ready to start at point guard and both Snow and Jones are just incapable of being effective starters at this stage of their respective careers.
Now if another trade was lined up to get just a slightly better point guard then they have on the roster now then I think they would happily make a move like this one.
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SacKingZZZ
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ecuhus1981 wrote:First, I'm not a Knicks fan. At all. But I do believe there is plenty of possibility for a Lee-less Artest deal. We know Ron is a 1-time All-Star and elite defender, but even at his sanest, we're not talking about a superstar. Look at what PHI got for Iverson; Sacramento can play the waiting game until the cows come home. They will not get a better deal for Ron than PHI got for Allen.
About Shannon Brown: Cleveland does not have a role for him right now. They still could choose to re-sign him, and they know he'll likely command less via free agency than the 3rd year of his rookie deal would've cost them. It's a similar situation with POB, Gerald Green and Antoine Wright. It's a gamble for their teams, but it certainly doesn't mean these kids are worthless just because their options aren't picked up. ORL could use him now, and if he finds a role, he would want to re-sign there.
You also have to look at how much $$$ it cost to make up the difference though. It should be very easy to make a deal work for Ron because even with a guy like Kenny Thomas in the deal you only have to make up about 14 million dollars on the other end. Finding trades that work under the CBA that involve 20 million dollar contracts is very hard to do and even harder/impossible to dump salary with. That's one of the reasons I think it is vitaly important for the Kings to move Artest now, because dumping salary with him isn't very hard to do CBA wise.
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ecuhus1981
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I agree that the Kings should not wait to dump Artest, but your financial logic is a little mixed up.
Yes, $14mil-deals are easier to pull of logistically than $20mil ones, but it doesn't drastically alter the incoming benefits package. The main difference in what AI fetched for Philly, and what Artest will for SAC, is not their difference in salary; it is the fact that Iverson is a better player.
Yes, $14mil-deals are easier to pull of logistically than $20mil ones, but it doesn't drastically alter the incoming benefits package. The main difference in what AI fetched for Philly, and what Artest will for SAC, is not their difference in salary; it is the fact that Iverson is a better player.
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ecuhus1981
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Out of curiosity, related to this deal and longfellow44's 3-way w/LAL...
Would you prefer to have:
A) Sean Williams, Javaris Crittenton and a NJ 1st, or
B) Cedric Simmons, Renaldo Balkman, Nate Robinson and an ORL 1st?
I think option A is better, obviously, but I did this to follow up with another question: is it "better enough", that it's worth not being able to dump Kenny Thomas? Because with option B, you'd be dumping KT without any other salary returning. For Option A, you'd not only keep Kenny, you actually TAKE ON salary and a higher cap figure with Jason Collins' contract.
Food for thought...
Would you prefer to have:
A) Sean Williams, Javaris Crittenton and a NJ 1st, or
B) Cedric Simmons, Renaldo Balkman, Nate Robinson and an ORL 1st?
I think option A is better, obviously, but I did this to follow up with another question: is it "better enough", that it's worth not being able to dump Kenny Thomas? Because with option B, you'd be dumping KT without any other salary returning. For Option A, you'd not only keep Kenny, you actually TAKE ON salary and a higher cap figure with Jason Collins' contract.
Food for thought...
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chriswebb86
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ecuhus1981 wrote:Out of curiosity, related to this deal and longfellow44's 3-way w/LAL...
Would you prefer to have:
A) Sean Williams, Javaris Crittenton and a NJ 1st, or
B) Cedric Simmons, Renaldo Balkman, Nate Robinson and an ORL 1st?
I think option A is better, obviously, but I did this to follow up with another question: is it "better enough", that it's worth not being able to dump Kenny Thomas? Because with option B, you'd be dumping KT without any other salary returning. For Option A, you'd not only keep Kenny, you actually TAKE ON salary and a higher cap figure with Jason Collins' contract.
Food for thought...
If I had a choice, I would take Deal A. I think Sean Williams and Javaris Crittenton have Higher upside then B. Also we really would have no need for Balkman with Salmons and Cisco here.
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