Wiltside wrote:3ammy3uck3ts wrote:Wiltside wrote:You have this narrative out there that Heat fans hate Bam. I really don't think that's the case. Heat fans have been spoilt with elite bigs over our history - Zo, Shaq, Bosh...we expect big things from him.
People rate Bam very highly, he's a multiple time All-Star now and a perennial DPOY candidate. One of the best FRP's we've ever had and an absolute steal at pick #14. He's not a perennial MVP candidate like Jokic or Embiid, but he's right there as a top 5-7 big in the Association.
I think what you read as hate are the frustrations with Bam's game at times. He's made huge strides on offense from where he was - he used to be purely a lob threat, whereas he's expanded his game to incorporate face ups, drives and the middy. He is, however, still a little raw offensively and not super polished. This can be a problem when we need a relief bucket, and fans hold him to a very high standard here. He falls in love with the inconsistent middy a little too much and that takes him away from drawing contact and getting to the free throw line, where he shoots a very solid clip for a big.
We'd love to see him expand his game and incorporate an outside shot to open up the floor. Spo seems reluctant to do it and wants him to focus on creating space for more pure shooters and being a damaging roll man or midrange pop threat. I'm OK with that. He may never become a high volume 3 ball guy, and if that's so, we need to put the right pieces around him to succeed.
Bam can't do much about being undersized as a 5. The Coaching Staff and FO have done him no favours by pairing him with 6'5" PF's which magnify Bam being a smaller 5 man. He is the engine behind our defense though, and the fulcrum to our offensive schemes. He's a very, very important player and will be for the next 5 years+.
He has improved just about every year, and it's likely he'll continue to do so. Even if this is his max potential - 20/10/4/1/1 is a great piece to build a squad around.
He's still not a better player than prime Bosh though
Every year he’s been a starter has been better than any season from Bosh in the big 3 era or really just in a Heat jersey period. Bosh is a better jump shooter, Bams better at basically everything else
It’s good to see Bosh get some credit though, he was Bam before Bam in terms of the fan bases punching bag for no reason
I don't reaaalllly want to get into this debate again with you, because I know it's a fruitless exercise, but...
Bosh was 7th in MVP voting as a 22yr old. 12th in MVP voting as a 25yr old before leaving Toronto.
When he left the Raptors, he was averaging 24/11/2 on 52% shooting and 16 FGA's. This is back in 2009-10, where the pace was a lot slower and bigs weren't shooting threes yet. He only averaged 0.1 three per game that season on 0.3 attempts. Bigs were to get their buckets in the paint or in the mid-range.
He was a 5x All-Star at 25 when he left Toronto, and successfully sacrificed statistics to have a better chance at being a winner. When he retired at 31/32 years of age, he had revolutionised the stretch 5 role and was in the middle of his prime and likely would've made a number of other All-Star teams before it was all said and done. Yes, he was the whipping boy at times in the Big 3 era where he was flanked by 2 of the best players of the last 20 years, but his role was a thankless one (much like Bam's now).
I've watched both these guys whole careers, and I can comfortably say that if I was picking one guy to build a team around RIGHT NOW from what i've seen from each to date, it would be Bosh. That's not a slight on Bam - Bosh is a Hall of Famer and one of the best bigs of his generation.
Bam will likely pass him in a number of Heat related accolades, if he hasn't already, but if I'm looking at Bam today at 25 years of age or Bosh at 25 years of age, I'm taking Bosh.
Thank you for building an argument and backing your stance, this is how discussion/debate is supposed to be. Fruitless? It’s just debate which is what a sports forum is also for correct?
Secondly, I just want to be clear my initial Bam vs Bosh take was that Bam has been better in his tenure as a starter than Bosh was in the big 3 era in nearly identical roles (usage and shot attempts) and potentially even his entire Heat tenure due to the unfortunate blood clots. I realize Bam is in his 5th year as a starter and that isn’t enough to put his career or anything ahead of Bosh’s but I do believe overall he is the better player and will easily/no debate pass him up as a Heat great if he doesn’t leave and will be a hall of famer himself.
As for Bosh’s Raptors tenure…….he had 1 season with a winning record his entire time on the Raptors. He was putting up empty numbers on a team that wasn’t winning games. I think if you dropped Bam on the Wizards and told him to score he could at worst come close (within 1-2 points) of the 24 PPG Bosh was putting up, he was doing that this season before the ugly losing streak.
MVP voting doesn’t really do it for me when Joakim Noah has a 4th place finish, Rose finished 9th like 4 years ago when he was washed, etc. The pace doesn’t matter too much to me either considering Bosh was taking more shots than Bam regardless of pace and Bosh on Bams current shot attempts is only averaging like 1.5 more PPG and this is coming off a rough stretch.
Scoring/shootong wise I give the edge to Bosh right now but I definitely think Bam will be allowed to shoot 3s eventually and that should open a new wrinkle to his game and I expect them to tinker his shot diet to improve his efficiency to what it once was (it’s trended that way since the meeting).
Rebounding Bam is better, defense Bam is better, passing wise it’s not even close and that alone at least offsets the scoring difference. Bams worst passing season as a starter is nearly 1 APG higher than Bosh’s career high.
Playoff wise their scoring is identical, Bosh actually scores at a slightly lower pace than Bam (less points on more shots), rebounding and passing go to Bam.
Regardless of which way you lean it isn’t too far one way or the other which is why it’s funny to me it’s so quickly dismissed by some and laughed about when brought up. I mean Heat tenure vs Heat tenure I’m not even going to dive into because Bam has pretty easily been the better of the 2 there, his worst season is arguably better than Bosh’s best in a Heat jersey. I think Bam more than solidified that with last seasons playoff run.
The only way to debate for Bosh at this point is to bring up his Toronto days where he was putting up numbers on horrible, somewhat decent for 1 season teams
