Preseason game 3 - Heat vs Grizzlies - 15th October - @ 6 PM ET

[VaDe255]

Herro and Bam were fantastic tonight. Great to see. If only we can get rid of dead weight Lowry and grab a decent starting PG.

Watch on YouTube

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

Harden is suspect defensively (that's charitable, imo) and has spent the last two seasons creating massive questions about his desire, his ability to not be a negative influence in the locker room, and his value when not in dribble-down-the-shot-clock mode.

IMO, he doesn't have any of the qualities the Heat are looking for and would need to be re-signed to an insane contract. If we were betting on a problem child, I'd much rather have taken a chance on Kyrie Irving.

Really, the guy is currently a top 10 PG in the league. The difference between Harden and Dame isn't as big as ppl think, the production from Harden on the 76ers almost got them the 1 seed and he basically won them 2 games vs the Celtics with huge performances, he still wants to win.

He got dealt some bad hands recently and I doubt he would be making much drama in a situation he is happy with.

Now 76ers aren't just going to route him to the Heat, that's one of the reasons it won't happen, but disrespecting the guy doesn't do anything. It's the same ppl have been doing to Herro, we'll see how that turns out.

[SA37]

Harden is suspect defensively (that's charitable, imo) and has spent the last two seasons creating massive questions about his desire, his ability to not be a negative influence in the locker room, and his value when not in dribble-down-the-shot-clock mode.

IMO, he doesn't have any of the qualities the Heat are looking for and would need to be re-signed to an insane contract. If we were betting on a problem child, I'd much rather have taken a chance on Kyrie Irving.

Really, the guy is currently a top 10 PG in the league. The difference between Harden and Dame isn't as big as ppl think, the production from Harden on the 76ers almost got them the 1 seed and he basically won them 2 games vs the Celtics with huge performances, he still wants to win.

He got dealt some bad hands recently and I doubt he would be making much drama in a situation he is happy with.

Now 76ers aren't just going to route him to the Heat, that's one of the reasons it won't happen, but disrespecting the guy doesn't do anything. It's the same ppl have been doing to Herro, we'll see how that turns out.

My argument isn't whether he is a top-10 pg or not; my argument is whether he is the right fit for Miami, especially at the cost both in trading for him and the contract extension he'd be looking for.

You see the glass half full on Harden ; I see it half empty. I think there are massive differences between Harden and Lillard both on and off the court, as far as their personalities/demeanor go, and as far as their abilities to be positive leaders for the Heat. I also don't think Harden is good playing off the ball, and that is something he'd likely need to do in Miami.

None of the criticisms I've made of Harden are unmerited, and I made similar arguments against acquiring him when he was asking out of Houston. So far, Harden has proven to be the problem I suspected he might be when things went south in Houston. I, for one, would not be willing to acquire him at the asking price, both from a trade standpoint or from a contract extension standpoint.

[IceColdCubano]

Harden is suspect defensively (that's charitable, imo) and has spent the last two seasons creating massive questions about his desire, his ability to not be a negative influence in the locker room, and his value when not in dribble-down-the-shot-clock mode.

IMO, he doesn't have any of the qualities the Heat are looking for and would need to be re-signed to an insane contract. If we were betting on a problem child, I'd much rather have taken a chance on Kyrie Irving.

Really, the guy is currently a top 10 PG in the league. The difference between Harden and Dame isn't as big as ppl think, the production from Harden on the 76ers almost got them the 1 seed and he basically won them 2 games vs the Celtics with huge performances, he still wants to win.

He got dealt some bad hands recently and I doubt he would be making much drama in a situation he is happy with.

Now 76ers aren't just going to route him to the Heat, that's one of the reasons it won't happen, but disrespecting the guy doesn't do anything. It's the same ppl have been doing to Herro, we'll see how that turns out.

My argument isn't whether he is a top-10 pg or not; my argument is whether he is the right fit for Miami, especially at the cost both in trading for him and the contract extension he'd be looking for.

You see the glass half full on Harden ; I see it half empty. I think there are massive differences between Harden and Lillard both on and off the court, as far as their personalities/demeanor go, and as far as their abilities to be positive leaders for the Heat. I also don't think Harden is good playing off the ball, and that is something he'd likely need to do in Miami.

None of the criticisms I've made of Harden are unmerited, and I made similar arguments against acquiring him when he was asking out of Houston. So far, Harden has proven to be the problem I suspected he might be when things went south in Houston. I, for one, would not be willing to acquire him at the asking price, both from a trade standpoint or from a contract extension standpoint.

Heres my take, If Miami plans on putting Herro & Josh to start its all well and good and I feel like that may be functional. However we couldn't deal with Herro and Harden in the backcourt. Jimmy & Bam would then need a Highsmith at the PF that can switch and help defensively. I would rather this than watch old slow decrepit Lowry start next to Herro for sure.

I Just don't think you guys understand Miami's predicament. They do not want to lose out on their picks (for a one year rental), they know another chance is coming in the next year or two for a big time swing. They feel like this team is perfectly capable of having a punchers chance, whether that be ECF, or Finals again its what they feel we have. That's enough for them riding the Jimmy years out this way until they can re-start once they get that elusive Superstar. I think they have made up their mind that risking assets for a short window 1-2 year window is not smart GM at this point. They want a big window, Pat Riley's last Hurray, bringing in another 28-30 year old star who will give us another 6-8 Years of contention. This is where he walks away, happy and full filled.

Regardless of what we fans believe, the general consensus around the NBA talking heads is that these Jimmy & Bam years have been very successful, regardless of how the Jimmy trail ends at this point. We would all love to give a championship but only one team wins every year, hell even when we had Lebron, Bosh & Wade we only managed to win 2 of them. Winning is hard, its even harder when you think about all the things you have to overcome, injuries, coaching, miracle end of the shot clock buzzer beaters.

[VaDe255]

My argument isn't whether he is a top-10 pg or not; my argument is whether he is the right fit for Miami, especially at the cost both in trading for him and the contract extension he'd be looking for.

You see the glass half full on Harden ; I see it half empty. I think there are massive differences between Harden and Lillard both on and off the court, as far as their personalities/demeanor go, and as far as their abilities to be positive leaders for the Heat. I also don't think Harden is good playing off the ball, and that is something he'd likely need to do in Miami.

I get those arguments about culture fit and personality, but I am just looking at numbers and cap considerations mostly.

i) Both have strengths and weaknesses, but the basketball fit is very similiar to what Dame was. When you look at some normalized stat like PER, the difference between the two is like 15%. Harden also did it on a winning team. When it comes to defense Harden is bigger and stronger, so I would rather take him than Dame on the defensive end.
ii) Dame's 4y max contract vs a guy who is on an expiring deal and after you can control mostly for how long you sign him and can sync his contract with other important contracts on your roster. Harden is easily the better option here, escpecially if you consider salary cap commitment/production that you end up with. You can look at it of having Harden + Herro, instead of just Dame.

None of the criticisms I've made of Harden are unmerited, and I made similar arguments against acquiring him when he was asking out of Houston. So far, Harden has proven to be the problem I suspected he might be when things went south in Houston. I, for one, would not be willing to acquire him at the asking price, both from a trade standpoint or from a contract extension standpoint.

Harden wasn't always unhappy and trying to get out, played a long time in Houston until it became obvious they are not competitive.
Certainly a risk with him that he might get unhappy again, but if things are right I doubt he'll make any drama.

I think it would be the perfect time to acquire Harden, because his value is probably as low as it is ever going to be.
If you can get him for smth. like Lowry/Caleb + 1 FRP + 2 swaps and have him on a contract that allows you to build out the roster around a core of Jimmy, Bam, Herro, Harden it's pretty good. You still have all your young prospects that you can develop, while trying to fully maximize the Jimmy window.

I don't know there are obviously ton's of things that could already have happened behind the scenes that make this trade unrealistic. Just looking at it from a numbers/salary cap and basketball fit view, I can easily make a case that he is probably the best chance at maximizing the Jimmy window that is out there right now.

[IceColdCubano]

Spoiler:

My argument isn't whether he is a top-10 pg or not; my argument is whether he is the right fit for Miami, especially at the cost both in trading for him and the contract extension he'd be looking for.

You see the glass half full on Harden ; I see it half empty. I think there are massive differences between Harden and Lillard both on and off the court, as far as their personalities/demeanor go, and as far as their abilities to be positive leaders for the Heat. I also don't think Harden is good playing off the ball, and that is something he'd likely need to do in Miami.

I get those arguments about culture fit and personality, but I am just looking at numbers and cap considerations mostly.

i) Both have strengths and weaknesses, but the basketball fit is very similiar to what Dame was. When you look at some normalized stat like PER, the difference between the two is like 15%. Harden also did it on a winning team. When it comes to defense Harden is bigger and stronger, so I would rather take him than Dame on the defensive end.
ii) Dame's 4y max contract vs a guy who is on an expiring deal and after you can control mostly for how long you sign him and can sync his contract with other important contracts on your roster. Harden is easily the better option here, escpecially if you consider salary cap commitment/production that you end up with. You can look at it of having Harden + Herro, instead of just Dame.

None of the criticisms I've made of Harden are unmerited, and I made similar arguments against acquiring him when he was asking out of Houston. So far, Harden has proven to be the problem I suspected he might be when things went south in Houston. I, for one, would not be willing to acquire him at the asking price, both from a trade standpoint or from a contract extension standpoint.

Harden wasn't always unhappy and trying to get out, played a long time in Houston until it became obvious they are not competitive.
Certainly a risk with him that he might get unhappy again, but if things are right I doubt he'll make any drama.

I think it would be the perfect time to acquire Harden, because his value is probably as low as it is ever going to be.
If you can get him for smth. like Lowry/Caleb + 1 FRP + 2 swaps and have him on a contract that allows you to build out the roster around a core of Jimmy, Bam, Herro, Harden it's pretty good. You still have all your young prospects that you can develop, while trying to fully maximize the Jimmy window.

I don't know there are obviously ton's of things that could already have happened behind the scenes that make this trade unrealistic. Just looking at it from a numbers/salary cap and basketball fit view, I can easily make a case that he is probably the best chance at maximizing the Jimmy window that is out there right now.

I Just don't think you guys understand Miami's predicament. They do not want to lose out on their picks (for a one year rental), they know another chance is coming in the next year or two for a big time swing. They feel like this team is perfectly capable of having a punchers chance, whether that be ECF, or Finals again its what they feel we have. That's enough for them riding the Jimmy years out this way until they can re-start once they get that elusive Superstar. I think they have made up their mind that risking assets for a short window 1-2 year window is not smart GM at this point. They want a big window, Pat Riley's last Hurray, bringing in another 28-30 year old star who will give us another 6-8 Years of contention. This is where he walks away, happy and full filled.

[Bourne85]

Watch on YouTube

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

Harden is suspect defensively (that's charitable, imo) and has spent the last two seasons creating massive questions about his desire, his ability to not be a negative influence in the locker room, and his value when not in dribble-down-the-shot-clock mode.

IMO, he doesn't have any of the qualities the Heat are looking for and would need to be re-signed to an insane contract. If we were betting on a problem child, I'd much rather have taken a chance on Kyrie Irving.

Really, the guy is currently a top 10 PG in the league. The difference between Harden and Dame isn't as big as ppl think, the production from Harden on the 76ers almost got them the 1 seed and he basically won them 2 games vs the Celtics with huge performances, he still wants to win.

He got dealt some bad hands recently and I doubt he would be making much drama in a situation he is happy with.

Now 76ers aren't just going to route him to the Heat, that's one of the reasons it won't happen, but disrespecting the guy doesn't do anything. It's the same ppl have been doing to Herro, we'll see how that turns out.

I have no clue why we are talking about Harden. The Heat want nothing to do with that guy

If there was one guy that is the total opposite of “heat culture” it would be him. Pat may have lost his touch, and his mind, but even he isn’t dumb enough to go after Harden. Sooner or later you guys will realize we are simply put not contending this season. Other teams improved, drastically, and we did nothing. Adding Harden is what a desperate franchise will do. And that’s not the Heat

[contract]

Jovic and Cain were dominating preseason last year then touched the court like 5 games during the season

With additions like Josh Richardson, Thomas Bryant, Kevin Love, Caleb going to the Bench & Highsmith having an improved 3pt shot there's even less minutes to go around for wings & forwards. Last year our depth was even less yet those guys barely saw the court. It will be much harder this year. However Jovic he was getting minutes for a good stretch there, and starting to get some good run until he got injured, he was starting to get those backup PF minutes. Its gonna take injuries to key guys on our bench or starters, and them getting plugged in and doing really well for them to stay in the rotation. I do believe Miami will give minutes to JJJ and Jovic at this point in time during the regular season before giving it to Cain. In the playoffs I don't know that to be true that could flip.

Hopefully Love isn’t in the rotation

If he is, we're in trouble. If he is it means that all our other options failed.

[contract]

My argument isn't whether he is a top-10 pg or not; my argument is whether he is the right fit for Miami, especially at the cost both in trading for him and the contract extension he'd be looking for.

You see the glass half full on Harden ; I see it half empty. I think there are massive differences between Harden and Lillard both on and off the court, as far as their personalities/demeanor go, and as far as their abilities to be positive leaders for the Heat. I also don't think Harden is good playing off the ball, and that is something he'd likely need to do in Miami.

I get those arguments about culture fit and personality, but I am just looking at numbers and cap considerations mostly.

i) Both have strengths and weaknesses, but the basketball fit is very similiar to what Dame was. When you look at some normalized stat like PER, the difference between the two is like 15%. Harden also did it on a winning team. When it comes to defense Harden is bigger and stronger, so I would rather take him than Dame on the defensive end.
ii) Dame's 4y max contract vs a guy who is on an expiring deal and after you can control mostly for how long you sign him and can sync his contract with other important contracts on your roster. Harden is easily the better option here, escpecially if you consider salary cap commitment/production that you end up with. You can look at it of having Harden + Herro, instead of just Dame.

None of the criticisms I've made of Harden are unmerited, and I made similar arguments against acquiring him when he was asking out of Houston. So far, Harden has proven to be the problem I suspected he might be when things went south in Houston. I, for one, would not be willing to acquire him at the asking price, both from a trade standpoint or from a contract extension standpoint.

Harden wasn't always unhappy and trying to get out, played a long time in Houston until it became obvious they are not competitive.
Certainly a risk with him that he might get unhappy again, but if things are right I doubt he'll make any drama.

I think it would be the perfect time to acquire Harden, because his value is probably as low as it is ever going to be.
If you can get him for smth. like Lowry/Caleb + 1 FRP + 2 swaps and have him on a contract that allows you to build out the roster around a core of Jimmy, Bam, Herro, Harden it's pretty good. You still have all your young prospects that you can develop, while trying to fully maximize the Jimmy window.

I don't know there are obviously ton's of things that could already have happened behind the scenes that make this trade unrealistic. Just looking at it from a numbers/salary cap and basketball fit view, I can easily make a case that he is probably the best chance at maximizing the Jimmy window that is out there right now.

Harden wants to get paid. That is the root of his unhappiness. Unless we're prepared to pay him, and I hope we're not, he would be just as unhappy here.

[oreon]

Watch on YouTube

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

Harden is suspect defensively (that's charitable, imo) and has spent the last two seasons creating massive questions about his desire, his ability to not be a negative influence in the locker room, and his value when not in dribble-down-the-shot-clock mode.

IMO, he doesn't have any of the qualities the Heat are looking for and would need to be re-signed to an insane contract. If we were betting on a problem child, I'd much rather have taken a chance on Kyrie Irving.

Really, the guy is currently a top 10 PG in the league. The difference between Harden and Dame isn't as big as ppl think, the production from Harden on the 76ers almost got them the 1 seed and he basically won them 2 games vs the Celtics with huge performances, he still wants to win.

He got dealt some bad hands recently and I doubt he would be making much drama in a situation he is happy with.

Now 76ers aren't just going to route him to the Heat, that's one of the reasons it won't happen, but disrespecting the guy doesn't do anything. It's the same ppl have been doing to Herro, we'll see how that turns out.

Harden isn't top 10 anymore. Or even top 15. Look at his averages for recent seasons they are way down from his career highs, even in the playoffs. While Dame had highest ppg last season.
Look at the last playoffs. He had 2 great 40 + games but he scored less than 18 pts in more than half of sixers playoff games as someone who is supposed to be the 2nd option.
Right now Dame is still All NBA level. While Harden is allstar/border line all star level player. He has declined significantly from his MVP days.

[IceColdCubano]

With additions like Josh Richardson, Thomas Bryant, Kevin Love, Caleb going to the Bench & Highsmith having an improved 3pt shot there's even less minutes to go around for wings & forwards. Last year our depth was even less yet those guys barely saw the court. It will be much harder this year. However Jovic he was getting minutes for a good stretch there, and starting to get some good run until he got injured, he was starting to get those backup PF minutes. Its gonna take injuries to key guys on our bench or starters, and them getting plugged in and doing really well for them to stay in the rotation. I do believe Miami will give minutes to JJJ and Jovic at this point in time during the regular season before giving it to Cain. In the playoffs I don't know that to be true that could flip.

Hopefully Love isn’t in the rotation

If he is, we're in trouble. If he is it means that all our other options failed.

I don't think it means they failed, it just means coach has more faith in veteran presence. If the Kids play really well during the season then I agree that shame on us for giving the vet the upper hand because it feels safer.

[contract]

Hopefully Love isn’t in the rotation

If he is, we're in trouble. If he is it means that all our other options failed.

I don't think it means they failed, it just means coach has more faith in veteran presence. If the Kids play really well during the season then I agree that shame on us for giving the vet the upper hand because it feels safer.

Love may be a veteran presence, but he's a shot player. UD was a veteran presence too, but we wouldn't put him on the court. One of our other guys better be ready to play or we're in trouble.

[VaDe255]

Harden is suspect defensively (that's charitable, imo) and has spent the last two seasons creating massive questions about his desire, his ability to not be a negative influence in the locker room, and his value when not in dribble-down-the-shot-clock mode.

IMO, he doesn't have any of the qualities the Heat are looking for and would need to be re-signed to an insane contract. If we were betting on a problem child, I'd much rather have taken a chance on Kyrie Irving.

Really, the guy is currently a top 10 PG in the league. The difference between Harden and Dame isn't as big as ppl think, the production from Harden on the 76ers almost got them the 1 seed and he basically won them 2 games vs the Celtics with huge performances, he still wants to win.

He got dealt some bad hands recently and I doubt he would be making much drama in a situation he is happy with.

Now 76ers aren't just going to route him to the Heat, that's one of the reasons it won't happen, but disrespecting the guy doesn't do anything. It's the same ppl have been doing to Herro, we'll see how that turns out.

Harden isn't top 10 anymore. Or even top 15. Look at his averages for recent seasons they are way down from his career highs, even in the playoffs. While Dame had highest ppg last season.
Look at the last playoffs. He had 2 great 40 + games but he scored less than 18 pts in more than half of sixers playoff games as someone who is supposed to be the 2nd option.
Right now Dame is still All NBA level. While Harden is allstar/border line all star level player. He has declined significantly from his MVP days.

Huh? Who exactly are the 15 guys ahead of Harden? This is getting hilarious.

The difference between Dame and Harden isn't huge. Dame on a team where he can jack up tons of shots was 15% more productive than Harden who played on a contender.

I think you guys are just direspecting the guy, when he is clearly the best option available right now.
Not saying they have to get him or will, but just looking at this from objective point of view, he would improve their championship chances a lot.

This see where we are as team and what are our biggest hole apporach is fine. I said multiple times the Heat are fine with what they have. This is more about defending Harden who is constantly getting bashed by everyone for ridiculous reasons.

[oreon]

Really, the guy is currently a top 10 PG in the league. The difference between Harden and Dame isn't as big as ppl think, the production from Harden on the 76ers almost got them the 1 seed and he basically won them 2 games vs the Celtics with huge performances, he still wants to win.

He got dealt some bad hands recently and I doubt he would be making much drama in a situation he is happy with.

Now 76ers aren't just going to route him to the Heat, that's one of the reasons it won't happen, but disrespecting the guy doesn't do anything. It's the same ppl have been doing to Herro, we'll see how that turns out.

Harden isn't top 10 anymore. Or even top 15. Look at his averages for recent seasons they are way down from his career highs, even in the playoffs. While Dame had highest ppg last season.
Look at the last playoffs. He had 2 great 40 + games but he scored less than 18 pts in more than half of sixers playoff games as someone who is supposed to be the 2nd option.
Right now Dame is still All NBA level. While Harden is allstar/border line all star level player. He has declined significantly from his MVP days.

Huh? Who exactly are the 15 guys ahead of Harden? This is getting hilarious.

The difference between Dame and Harden isn't huge. Dame on a team where he can jack up tons of shots was 15% more productive than Harden who played on a contender.

I think you guys are just direspecting the guy, when he is clearly the best option available right now.
Not saying they have to get him or will, but just looking at this from objective point of view, he would improve their championship chances a lot.

This see where we are as team and what are our biggest hole apporach is fine. I said multiple times the Heat are fine with what they have. This is more about defending Harden who is constantly getting bashed by everyone for ridiculous reasons.

Joker, Giannis, Curry, Doncic, Embiid, Booker, Dame, Butler, Morant, AD, KD, SAG, Trae, Lebron - These ones for sure. I don't think there's any argument here
Then we have Kawhi, Zion are a 100 % better than Harden if they play.
Then there are unproven young guys like Mitchell, Ant who are better than Harden but haven't yet delivered in playoffs
And there are guys like Tyrese, Bam, Kyrie, Murray, Brunson who I would take ahead of the current Harden

Its no disrespect to say Harden isn't top 15 anymore. Its fact, he just isn't. Just like KD is no longer top 5 and Lebron is no longer top 10. These players are old and father time catches up with all of them. If Harden had taken his conditioning as seriously as guys like Lebron, Curry, KD, Dame maybe he could have extended his prime to 35, 36 like these guys did. But he didn't.

[VaDe255]

Harden isn't top 10 anymore. Or even top 15. Look at his averages for recent seasons they are way down from his career highs, even in the playoffs. While Dame had highest ppg last season.
Look at the last playoffs. He had 2 great 40 + games but he scored less than 18 pts in more than half of sixers playoff games as someone who is supposed to be the 2nd option.
Right now Dame is still All NBA level. While Harden is allstar/border line all star level player. He has declined significantly from his MVP days.

Huh? Who exactly are the 15 guys ahead of Harden? This is getting hilarious.

The difference between Dame and Harden isn't huge. Dame on a team where he can jack up tons of shots was 15% more productive than Harden who played on a contender.

I think you guys are just direspecting the guy, when he is clearly the best option available right now.
Not saying they have to get him or will, but just looking at this from objective point of view, he would improve their championship chances a lot.

This see where we are as team and what are our biggest hole apporach is fine. I said multiple times the Heat are fine with what they have. This is more about defending Harden who is constantly getting bashed by everyone for ridiculous reasons.

Joker, Giannis, Curry, Doncic, Embiid, Booker, Dame, Butler, Morant, AD, KD, SAG, Trae, Lebron - These ones for sure. I don't think there's any argument here
Then we have Kawhi, Zion are a 100 % better than Harden if they play.
Then there are unproven young guys like Mitchell, Ant who are better than Harden but haven't yet delivered in playoffs
And there are guys like Tyrese, Bam, Kyrie, Murray, Brunson who I would take ahead of the current Harden

Its no disrespect to say Harden isn't top 15 anymore. Its fact, he just isn't. Just like KD is no longer top 5 and Lebron is no longer top 10. These players are old and father time catches up with all of them. If Harden had taken his conditioning as seriously as guys like Lebron, Curry, KD, Dame maybe he could have extended his prime to 35, 36 like these guys did. But he didn't.

I was talking about top 10 PGs, you conviniently ignored it.
He's still a top 10 PG in this league, there isn't much sense in comparing Centers with PGs.

[3ballbomber]

harden's top 10 fat, useless f*ck in the nba