Bucks News, Transactions, Trade Ideas - Bucks deny Pistons to talk to Horst

[mattg]

The harsh truth that the vast majority of this board can't seem to come to grips with is that Giannis is nearly impossible to build around. That's the issue this team has.

Despite his gaudy box score numbers all the way around, there are some major red flags that most posters here routinely look past and wave away.

People talk about Giannis being a DPOY...but he doesn't actually anchor elite defenses unless he has a DPOY caliber Lopez playing center next to him. He doesn't sniff top 10 defenses without a top 2 ball screen navigating PG (Jrue or Bledsoe). We also needed plus defense from Tucker and Middleton alongside those guys to barely win a title. Without all of that, and a great coach scheming it all together, we just suck defensively. So on defense alone, the roster construction is nearly impossible to do...especially since Giannis is never going to play center in any universe (despite posters here acting like that's the magic bullet for the last 8 seasons).

Then offensively it's a whole other mess. Giannis puts up absurd raw numbers...but it doesn't translate to good offense in the playoffs whatsoever. He just proved that he is completely incapable of playing alongside a ball screen guard or any other player who operates with the ball (which in theory should be his best pairing) because Giannis literally just stands 28 feet from the hoop and calls for the ball when he doesn't have it in his hands which handicaps every other player's ability to do anything since the paint is constantly clogged. No screening, no off ball cutting, no intangibles offensively. He just wants to ISO and attack off the dribble which has led to the same type of result for years, sub par offense in the playoffs, Giannis flat out isn't good enough on offense to approach the game in that manner in the post season. There's also the issue that his approach is ridiculously predictable, and it's what has led to him getting hurt numerous times. Everyone and their mom knows defenders are going to try and take charges non stop vs Giannis. We can sit here and debate if those are dirty plays or whatever, but the fact is that defense works on him. Giannis will continually drive headfirst blinders on, 100mph into multiple defenders, picking up stupid charges, turning the ball over, and getting hurt from repeatedly barreling into guys. Until he changes his approach IMO we are done as contenders completely, regardless of any roster moves that are made. Even when Giannis is "cooking", his decision making is wayyyy too inconsistent to compete with current top teams who execute at a level clearly beyond anything this team has ever played at, even when they won the title in 2021.

On top of all of that, IMO you need a coach who puts the guard rails up for Giannis like Bud did. As dumb aswe thought Bud was putting tape boxes on the floor and being totally inflexible in approach, it's clear as day that he HAD to do that. Otherwise you'd see the type of team we had this year. You need to have the strictest macro shot profile for the team otherwise the awful basketball IQ and decision making the players have will just cause us to lose early consistently. No Giannis team is ever going to out execute any other actually quality team, so you need to win on the margins and the easiest way to do that is just to out math teams by having a better shot profile as a whole.

And to anyone who disagrees with this premise, construct a title winning roster around Giannis right now. No restrictions. Just build the roster that wins a title based around Giannis in today's league and we can revisit this conversation. I'd be absolutely shocked if we had the capability to acquire even 1 single starter that someone will propose in this "ideal" Giannis lineup.

[JayMKE]

Pure nonsense you can't build around Giannis, he's basically our whole offense besides pure chucking from everyone else & only guy physically even capable of defending in the NBA today. Giannis isn't the reason Dame a)isn't a pg b)doesn't play defense c) his hot & cold shooting despite more spacing from teammates d)the league no longer calling his grifting for fouls e)father time finally catching up. Dame doesn't drive to the basket or finish in same stratosphere as Giannis, he doesn't really distribute either so its real confusing to cry about Giannis "clogging up the paint" for his teammates. As if! What were missing was more Lopez, Portis, and Khris post ups? The issue is that we have too many chefs in the kitchen who need to pound the ball, we need our guys other than Giannis to actually play defense and off the ball. We don't need more iso guys, we need guys who play their **** role and not **** the bed when it matters.

[Baddy Chuck]

Would you really be comfortable putting a complete non shooter next to Giannis? I wouldn't.

Personally I think the idea of needing a shooter to open up the lane is one of the most overrated/overused tropes on this board.

[RRyder823]

Would you really be comfortable putting a complete non shooter next to Giannis? I wouldn't.

Personally I think the idea of needing a shooter to open up the lane is one of the most overrated/overused tropes on this board.

What? You mean you don't absolutely need 4 lights out shooters on the court to not kill an offense?...... Shenanigans I say

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[Baddy Chuck]

This is just Steven Adams examples:

2022-23 - Ja Morant - Seventh in the league in FGA < 5 feet
2021-22 - Ja Morant - Third in the league in FGA < 5 feet
2020-21 - Zion Williamson - First in the league in FGA < 5 feet (14.3!)
2019-20 - Russell Westbrook - Second in the league in FGA < 5 feet
2017-18 - Russell Westbrook - Fourth in the league in FGA < 5 feet
2016-17 - Russell Westbrook - Eight in the league in FGA < 5 feet (MVP)
2015-16 - Russell Westbrook - Fifth in the league in FGA < 5 feet
2014-15 - Russell Westbrook - Sixth in the league in FGA < 5 feet

[blazza18]

A vertical threat next to Giannis would be a nice change of pace. Find someone to turn into a better Miles Plumlee.

[German Athens]

A vertical threat next to Giannis would be a nice change of pace. Find someone to turn into a better Miles Plumlee.

Giannis would absolutely love throwing lobs to dudes who could go and get them.

[mattg]

Pure nonsense you can't build around Giannis, he's basically our whole offense besides pure chucking from everyone else & only guy physically even capable of defending in the NBA today. Giannis isn't the reason Dame a)isn't a pg b)doesn't play defense c) his hot & cold shooting despite more spacing from teammates d)the league no longer calling his grifting for fouls e)father time finally catching up. Dame doesn't drive to the basket or finish in same stratosphere as Giannis, he doesn't really distribute either so its real confusing to cry about Giannis "clogging up the paint" for his teammates. As if! What were missing was more Lopez, Portis, and Khris post ups? The issue is that we have too many chefs in the kitchen who need to pound the ball, we need our guys other than Giannis to actually play defense and off the ball. We don't need more iso guys, we need guys who play their **** role and not **** the bed when it matters.

I asked you the exact same question like 2-3 other times in a previous thread https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=2357992&p=111482593#p111482593, WHAT'S THE IDEAL GIANNIS LINEUP? DISREGARD ALL SALARY MATCHING AND BEING REALISTIC TRADES. NAME THE SUPPORTING CAST.

You keep saying we just need to put 3+D guys around Giannis and that's it, no guys who need the ball period, but yet you can't even name a hypothetical lineup when asked to multiple times like you're suggesting (let alone a path to realistically acquire these hypothetical players that we have no remote means to get).

[-Jragon-]

There was a time when just having more star power and talent was enough to win. All the "big 3" teams are basically out in Cancun. It's team ball, plays, 2 way role players, efficient ball, smart ball, hit the open shot and make the extra pass.

If we did trade Middleton we don't necessarily need someone of equal talent back.. it would be more playere maybe that play the above ways.

[midranger]

The harsh truth that the vast majority of this board can't seem to come to grips with is that Giannis is nearly impossible to build around. That's the issue this team has.

Despite his gaudy box score numbers all the way around, there are some major red flags that most posters here routinely look past and wave away.

People talk about Giannis being a DPOY...but he doesn't actually anchor elite defenses unless he has a DPOY caliber Lopez playing center next to him. He doesn't sniff top 10 defenses without a top 2 ball screen navigating PG (Jrue or Bledsoe). We also needed plus defense from Tucker and Middleton alongside those guys to barely win a title. Without all of that, and a great coach scheming it all together, we just suck defensively. So on defense alone, the roster construction is nearly impossible to do...especially since Giannis is never going to play center in any universe (despite posters here acting like that's the magic bullet for the last 8 seasons).

Then offensively it's a whole other mess. Giannis puts up absurd raw numbers...but it doesn't translate to good offense in the playoffs whatsoever. He just proved that he is completely incapable of playing alongside a ball screen guard or any other player who operates with the ball (which in theory should be his best pairing) because Giannis literally just stands 28 feet from the hoop and calls for the ball when he doesn't have it in his hands which handicaps every other player's ability to do anything since the paint is constantly clogged. No screening, no off ball cutting, no intangibles offensively. He just wants to ISO and attack off the dribble which has led to the same type of result for years, sub par offense in the playoffs, Giannis flat out isn't good enough on offense to approach the game in that manner in the post season. There's also the issue that his approach is ridiculously predictable, and it's what has led to him getting hurt numerous times. Everyone and their mom knows defenders are going to try and take charges non stop vs Giannis. We can sit here and debate if those are dirty plays or whatever, but the fact is that defense works on him. Giannis will continually drive headfirst blinders on, 100mph into multiple defenders, picking up stupid charges, turning the ball over, and getting hurt from repeatedly barreling into guys. Until he changes his approach IMO we are done as contenders completely, regardless of any roster moves that are made. Even when Giannis is "cooking", his decision making is wayyyy too inconsistent to compete with current top teams who execute at a level clearly beyond anything this team has ever played at, even when they won the title in 2021.

On top of all of that, IMO you need a coach who puts the guard rails up for Giannis like Bud did. As dumb aswe thought Bud was putting tape boxes on the floor and being totally inflexible in approach, it's clear as day that he HAD to do that. Otherwise you'd see the type of team we had this year. You need to have the strictest macro shot profile for the team otherwise the awful basketball IQ and decision making the players have will just cause us to lose early consistently. No Giannis team is ever going to out execute any other actually quality team, so you need to win on the margins and the easiest way to do that is just to out math teams by having a better shot profile as a whole.

And to anyone who disagrees with this premise, construct a title winning roster around Giannis right now. No restrictions. Just build the roster that wins a title based around Giannis in today's league and we can revisit this conversation. I'd be absolutely shocked if we had the capability to acquire even 1 single starter that someone will propose in this "ideal" Giannis lineup.

Unfortunately, I don’t think this is wrong.

[paulpressey25]

I think MattG just called Giannis a seven foot Westbrook.

Elements of truth in there.

[ShootingtheJ]

Would you really be comfortable putting a complete non shooter next to Giannis? I wouldn't.

Personally I think the idea of needing a shooter to open up the lane is one of the most overrated/overused tropes on this board.

Then we watch the playoffs and continually see non shooters get ignored and kill their teams offenses

[ShootingtheJ]

I think MattG just called Giannis a seven foot Westbrook.

Elements of truth in there.

That's so incredibly dumb. One is a playoff riser and the leagues most efficient crunch time scorer, and then there's Westbrook who absolutely disappears when it matters.

[German Athens]

I think you could build a team around Giannis that wins a title in the modern National Basketball Association.

Just my opinion, though.

[ShootingtheJ]

The harsh truth that the vast majority of this board can't seem to come to grips with is that Giannis is nearly impossible to build around.

He was the anchor of far and away the best lineup in basketball this year. When both teams were at full strength, the Bucks mopped the floor with every top team in the league this year.

The only weakness Giannis has was he played injured at the end of the regular season, and ended up out for the playoffs.

If Brian Flanigan and his medical staff hacks had done their job, Giannis would be on his way to another title.

[ShootingtheJ]

I think you could build a team around Giannis that wins a title in the modern National Basketball Association.

Just my opinion, though.

Lol, just because it's happened, you think it's possible? Poppycock

[yb90]

Would you really be comfortable putting a complete non shooter next to Giannis? I wouldn't.

Personally I think the idea of needing a shooter to open up the lane is one of the most overrated/overused tropes on this board.

Then we watch the playoffs and continually see non shooters get ignored and kill their teams offenses

P.j. Washington is a non shooter yet has had a positive impact for Dallas.

[ShootingtheJ]

Would you really be comfortable putting a complete non shooter next to Giannis? I wouldn't.

Personally I think the idea of needing a shooter to open up the lane is one of the most overrated/overused tropes on this board.

What? You mean you don't absolutely need 4 lights out shooters on the court to not kill an offense?...... Shenanigans I say

Sent from my SM-S918U using RealGM mobile app

Who were the great offenses this year with 2 non shooters?

[ShootingtheJ]

Personally I think the idea of needing a shooter to open up the lane is one of the most overrated/overused tropes on this board.

Then we watch the playoffs and continually see non shooters get ignored and kill their teams offenses

P.j. Washington is a non shooter yet has had a positive impact for Dallas.

Nope, 35% career 3 point shooter. Shooting 41% from 3 in the playoffs so far this year.

[Baddy Chuck]

Would you really be comfortable putting a complete non shooter next to Giannis? I wouldn't.

Personally I think the idea of needing a shooter to open up the lane is one of the most overrated/overused tropes on this board.

Then we watch the playoffs and continually see non shooters get ignored and kill their teams offenses

Non shooters get ignored if you have them camped at the three point line, sure.