Bucks News, Transactions, Trade Ideas - Bucks deny Pistons to talk to Horst

[ShootingtheJ]

Personally I think the idea of needing a shooter to open up the lane is one of the most overrated/overused tropes on this board.

Then we watch the playoffs and continually see non shooters get ignored and kill their teams offenses

Non shooters get ignored if you have them camped at the three point line, sure.

Clogging the lane so Dame and Giannis can't drive isn't ideal offense.

[mattg]

I think you could build a team around Giannis that wins a title in the modern National Basketball Association.

Just my opinion, though.

And like I have repeatedly asked. CREATE THE LINEUP THAT DOES IT NOW.

The circumstances when we won in 2021 were a perfect storm that fortuitously resulted in a title and we cannot recreate them with the same players at this point in time. We also haven't been remotely close to a title since then.

[ShootingtheJ]

No better examples of how non shooters effect offenses than the difference of when Brook Lopez can guard a non shooter and camp in the lane, versus when he has to defend Miles Turner or Al Horford.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

There was a time when just having more star power and talent was enough to win. All the "big 3" teams are basically out in Cancun. It's team ball, plays, 2 way role players, efficient ball, smart ball, hit the open shot and make the extra pass.

If we did trade Middleton we don't necessarily need someone of equal talent back.. it would be more playere maybe that play the above ways.

if youre going to trade stars and break up our big 3 and you want....

team ball, plays 2 ways, efficient, with smart ball, and hits the open shot or makes the extra pass..... then its khris you start with on that definition.

hes the guy we should acquire not the guy you trade first. a team built around 3 khris middletons in the playoffs playing the 2, 3, and 4 is a hell of a start. give him a game managing 3 and d pg with a rim protecting switchable stretch big and you have something these days

[ShootingtheJ]

I think you could build a team around Giannis that wins a title in the modern National Basketball Association.

Just my opinion, though.

And like I have repeatedly asked. CREATE THE LINEUP THAT DOES IT NOW.

The circumstances when we won in 2021 were a perfect storm that fortuitously resulted in a title and we cannot recreate them with the same players at this point in time. We also haven't been remotely close to a title since then.

The Bucks literally had far and away the most effective lineup in basketball this year. That's despite Beasley being an incredibly limited player who couldn't defend, dribble, or pass.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

and mattg's post is the elephant in the room. theres a group of us that have been shouted down about it for years.

and with our big 3 in the lineup our team got worse all season long. the regular season 3 man stat everybody refers to is junk

imo giannis needs to go back to the defense first foul trouble guy he used to be for us to win. he can do that. developing his offense at this stage of his career is a dense outlook for improvement.

[mattg]

I think you could build a team around Giannis that wins a title in the modern National Basketball Association.

Just my opinion, though.

And like I have repeatedly asked. CREATE THE LINEUP THAT DOES IT NOW.

The circumstances when we won in 2021 were a perfect storm that fortuitously resulted in a title and we cannot recreate them with the same players at this point in time. We also haven't been remotely close to a title since then.

The Bucks literally had far and away the most effective lineup in basketball this year. That's despite Beasley being an incredibly limited player who couldn't defend, dribble, or pass.

And that lineup is never available to play when the games actually count and those games are the only ones that matter at this point in time. No one cares about the small sample spreadsheet champs that can't actually make it to the court. Maybe if Giannis wasn't hurting himself barreling through players recklessly nonstop he'd be available to anchor the best lineup in basketball that we never really get to see. Same issue last year that our best player is hurt when it matters because he barrels through players. The style of play HAS TO CHANGE, this isn't an issue that just gets better as Giannis gets older and less athletic.

[ShootingtheJ]

And like I have repeatedly asked. CREATE THE LINEUP THAT DOES IT NOW.

The circumstances when we won in 2021 were a perfect storm that fortuitously resulted in a title and we cannot recreate them with the same players at this point in time. We also haven't been remotely close to a title since then.

The Bucks literally had far and away the most effective lineup in basketball this year. That's despite Beasley being an incredibly limited player who couldn't defend, dribble, or pass.

And that lineup is never available to play when the games actually count and those games are the only ones that matter at this point in time. No one cares about the small sample spreadsheet champs that can't actually make it to the court. Maybe if Giannis wasn't hurting himself barreling through players recklessly nonstop he'd be available to anchor the best lineup in basketball that we never really get to see.

Giannis was not injured barreling through anyone this year.

He was allowed to play meaningless games with a calf strain, and predictably it got worse. You're mad at the wrong people.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

i think giannis can play center but he needs to act as freely open to contact on defense as he does on offense.

the last two years he wears his own ass out trying to crush people on the offensive end while he has become allergic to contact defensively.

if he cant play 5 for us in a fast paced switchable defensive scheme then he loses just so much value with the way teams play now

[paulpressey25]

He was allowed to play meaningless games with a calf strain, and predictably it got worse. You're mad at the wrong people.

If he didn’t play those games, we’d probably have slipped further back in the standings.

The whole post-Bud situation has been a cluster ****. And of course the pre-Bud 2017 situation was a cluster ****. It’s almost like you could read something into that.

[Baddy Chuck]

Then we watch the playoffs and continually see non shooters get ignored and kill their teams offenses

Non shooters get ignored if you have them camped at the three point line, sure.

Clogging the lane so Dame and Giannis can't drive isn't ideal offense.

I'll just refer back to this

This is just Steven Adams examples:

2022-23 - Ja Morant - Seventh in the league in FGA < 5 feet
2021-22 - Ja Morant - Third in the league in FGA < 5 feet
2020-21 - Zion Williamson - First in the league in FGA < 5 feet (14.3!)
2019-20 - Russell Westbrook - Second in the league in FGA < 5 feet
2017-18 - Russell Westbrook - Fourth in the league in FGA < 5 feet
2016-17 - Russell Westbrook - Eight in the league in FGA < 5 feet (MVP)
2015-16 - Russell Westbrook - Fifth in the league in FGA < 5 feet
2014-15 - Russell Westbrook - Sixth in the league in FGA < 5 feet

Is Isaiah Hartenstein and his one made three this season preventing a guy like Brunson from getting downhill and into the lane? Are Gafford and Lively stopping Luka and Kyrie?

To me this "clogging the lane" is almost as antiquated an NBA term as there is. We really don't have Greg Monroe and Enes Kanter in the lane calling for the ball and doing nothing. A modern NBA big that can understand spacing, finish around the rim, set screens etc helps open the lane.

Defenses clog the lane. If our offense is Giannis running 1 on 5, which he does even with 4 shooters, then the lane is going to be clogged no matter who is next to him. And personally I've seen enough of the 4 out, Giannis drive into the wall offense that we've seen get stimied so many times. Can it work? Of course. Could a different look be just as effective? Personally, I think so.

I don't think 35% shooting or whatever from the center position opens up a ton more than a smart big. If given the chance I'd take a guy like Hartenstein over Wendell Carter Jr. probably 10/10 times.

[ShootingtheJ]

i think giannis can play center but he needs to act as freely open to contact on defense as he does on offense.

the last two years he wears his own ass out trying to crush people on the offensive end while he has become allergic to contact defensively.

if he cant play 5 for us in a fast paced switchable defensive scheme then he loses just so much value with the way teams play now

How good do you think a Giannis at center lineup could be? Something like +18 /100 good?

[RRyder823]

We've reached the point where Giannis isn't good enough to build around if you want to win a title since the season ended...... Jesus **** christ guys go touch some grass

Sent from my SM-S918U using RealGM mobile app

[ShootingtheJ]

Non shooters get ignored if you have them camped at the three point line, sure.

Clogging the lane so Dame and Giannis can't drive isn't ideal offense.

I'll just refer back to this

This is just Steven Adams examples:

2022-23 - Ja Morant - Seventh in the league in FGA < 5 feet
2021-22 - Ja Morant - Third in the league in FGA < 5 feet
2020-21 - Zion Williamson - First in the league in FGA < 5 feet (14.3!)
2019-20 - Russell Westbrook - Second in the league in FGA < 5 feet
2017-18 - Russell Westbrook - Fourth in the league in FGA < 5 feet
2016-17 - Russell Westbrook - Eight in the league in FGA < 5 feet (MVP)
2015-16 - Russell Westbrook - Fifth in the league in FGA < 5 feet
2014-15 - Russell Westbrook - Sixth in the league in FGA < 5 feet

Is Isaiah Hartenstein and his one made three this season preventing a guy like Brunson from getting downhill and into the lane? Are Gafford and Lively stopping Luka and Kyrie?

To me this "clogging the lane" is almost as antiquated an NBA term as there is. We really don't have Greg Monroe and Enes Kanter in the lane calling for the ball and doing nothing. A modern NBA big that can understand spacing, finish around the rim, set screens etc helps open the lane.

Defenses clog the lane. If our offense is Giannis running 1 on 5, which he does even with 4 shooters, then the lane is going to be clogged no matter who is next to him. And personally I've seen enough of the 4 out, Giannis drive into the wall offense that we've seen get stimied so many times. Can it work? Of course. Could a different look be just as effective? Personally, I think so.

I don't think 35% shooting or whatever from the center position opens up a ton more than a smart big. If given the chance I'd take a guy like Hartenstein over Wendell Carter Jr. probably 10/10 times.

You just listed teams with 1 non shooter in the lineup at a time. That's what we have now. Of course that works. No one is arguing that.

You do realize Giannis and Adams would be in the lineup at the same time right? That's 2 non shooters at once. That's COMPLETELY different.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

We've reached the point where Giannis isn't good enough to build around if you want to win a title since the season ended...... Jesus **** christ guys go touch some grass

i dont think we go there but clearly the discussion with all great players at some point turns away from the team and back on the player when massive failures and disappointment is repeated. our team has enough talent to win. weve seen that previously and showed it again this postseason without him. he does need to be included in all assessments as age and injuries pile up

[ShootingtheJ]

He was allowed to play meaningless games with a calf strain, and predictably it got worse. You're mad at the wrong people.

If he didn’t play those games, we’d probably have slipped further back in the standings.

The whole post-Bud situation has been a cluster ****. And of course the pre-Bud 2017 situation was a cluster ****. It’s almost like you could read something into that.

Who cares if we slipped in the standings, the seeds are irrelevant this year.

Yes, a necessary mid season coaching change was not ideal for the regular season standings, but that was pretty irrelevant come playoff time

[ShootingtheJ]

We've reached the point where Giannis isn't good enough to build around if you want to win a title since the season ended...... Jesus **** christ guys go touch some grass

i dont think we go there but clearly the discussion with all great players at some point turns away from the team and back on the player when massive failures and disappointment is repeated. our team has enough talent to win. weve seen that previously and showed it again this postseason without him. he does need to be included in all assessments as age and injuries pile up

We didn't win in the postseason without him

[Baddy Chuck]

You just listed teams with 1 non shooter in the lineup at a time. That's what we have now. Of course that works. No one is arguing that.

You do realize Giannis and Adams would be in the lineup at the same time right? That's 2 non shooters at once. That's COMPLETELY different.

Zion WIlliamson next to Steven Adams shot 84% of his attempts at the hoop and averaged 27 points a game. You can unquestionably make two non shooters work.

Giannis in a pick and roll with a big and Dame off the ball works. Giannis in the dunker spot with Dame running a pick and roll with a guy works. Giannis in the post with a big man opposite works. Giannis on the elbow with a guy in the dunker spot works. There's so many ways to exploit help defense with another big. If you want to run pure iso ball where we have two guys standing there doing absolutely nothing and hoping Dame can get into the lane, sure, you're probably in for a tough time.

To me by far the biggest problem would be finding a guy defensively that fits. Like I wouldn't even really want a Steven Adams because I think if teams play smaller, or even just have a shooting big, you take him out of the game defensively like a Brook. A more athletic, switching big though I think could work.

If you gave me a Bam Adebayo, a Jarrett Allen, an Isaiah Hartenstein, etc I'm unquestionably taking them over a lot of similar level players just because they shoot 35% from three for this team.

When the Warriors won the championship a few years ago their most used (and best) lineup in that championship run featured Draymond Green and Kevon Looney, a whole lot of shooting going on there huh?

[German Athens]

Thinking of free agents. Do you guys think Goga, Tillman, or Precious could be had on the tpmle if we get below the second apron?

[tydett]

He was allowed to play meaningless games with a calf strain, and predictably it got worse. You're mad at the wrong people.

If he didn’t play those games, we’d probably have slipped further back in the standings.

The whole post-Bud situation has been a cluster ****. And of course the pre-Bud 2017 situation was a cluster ****. It’s almost like you could read something into that.

You say this, but if not winning a title is a ****, then I notice a lot of **** in the non-2021 years with Bud too...