24/25 College Basketball

[MVP2110]

Worse weather, bad campus, not near a major city like many others. But generally speaking you're right, all are in the same ballpark. Them trying this is an attempt to differentiate themselves though and NOT be like everyone else. Will it work/help? I doubt it, but their exposure level just went up

In theory I don't mind the idea of "taking a shot". But when the guy you hired won't even give up his daily radio show from 3-6pm then I have to really question how invested he actually is. Hiring a coach with no experience and who isn't fully invested in the job is just not the route I'd have gone

I realize that 17-20 year-olds are not glued to Doug Gottlieb's radio show or radio in general, but exposure is exposure. It probably fails like Herm Edwards (actually, they were roughly as good as ASU always was), but the radio show/exposure is probably a feature not a bug. Nobody ever gives a thought to UWGB basketball. Nobody still will, probably, but maybe they get a bit of extra $ or whatever due to this and it gives them a slight leg up.

I guess it comes down to, I don't care about exposure, I care about watching a winning basketball team. And I have very little faith Gottlieb will bring that

[Kerb Hohl]

In theory I don't mind the idea of "taking a shot". But when the guy you hired won't even give up his daily radio show from 3-6pm then I have to really question how invested he actually is. Hiring a coach with no experience and who isn't fully invested in the job is just not the route I'd have gone

I realize that 17-20 year-olds are not glued to Doug Gottlieb's radio show or radio in general, but exposure is exposure. It probably fails like Herm Edwards (actually, they were roughly as good as ASU always was), but the radio show/exposure is probably a feature not a bug. Nobody ever gives a thought to UWGB basketball. Nobody still will, probably, but maybe they get a bit of extra $ or whatever due to this and it gives them a slight leg up.

I guess it comes down to, I don't care about exposure, I care about watching a winning basketball team. And I have very little faith Gottlieb will bring that

In this era, I have very little faith anyone they hire will. We all agree they are playing on the same "your good players will leave immediately" playing field as the rest of the Horizon/bottom half of D1, but the ceiling is also agreed on to probably be the middle of the Horizon, of which most of the league has a leg up on location, weather, facilities...why not gamble for a year or two?

[MVP2110]

I realize that 17-20 year-olds are not glued to Doug Gottlieb's radio show or radio in general, but exposure is exposure. It probably fails like Herm Edwards (actually, they were roughly as good as ASU always was), but the radio show/exposure is probably a feature not a bug. Nobody ever gives a thought to UWGB basketball. Nobody still will, probably, but maybe they get a bit of extra $ or whatever due to this and it gives them a slight leg up.

I guess it comes down to, I don't care about exposure, I care about watching a winning basketball team. And I have very little faith Gottlieb will bring that

In this era, I have very little faith anyone they hire will. We all agree they are playing on the same "your good players will leave immediately" playing field as the rest of the Horizon/bottom half of D1, but the ceiling is also agreed on to probably be the middle of the Horizon, of which most of the league has a leg up on location, weather, facilities...why not gamble for a year or two?

I don't understand why the ceiling is the middle of the Horizon when outside of the Will Ryan era they've been in the top 3-5 teams more often than not. They can certainly be a top end Horizon team imo. Those same disadvantages you've listed have been there for years on both the men's and women's side yet the Women have consistently been near the very top of the conference and the men not far behind them. Essentially every time they've hired a legitimately qualified Head Coach(not Will Ryan) they've been an above average Horizon team. So why would should UWGB gamble being a consistently good team for a name hire who won't even devote his full attention to the job?

[DingleJerry]

In theory I don't mind the idea of "taking a shot". But when the guy you hired won't even give up his daily radio show from 3-6pm then I have to really question how invested he actually is. Hiring a coach with no experience and who isn't fully invested in the job is just not the route I'd have gone

I realize that 17-20 year-olds are not glued to Doug Gottlieb's radio show or radio in general, but exposure is exposure. It probably fails like Herm Edwards (actually, they were roughly as good as ASU always was), but the radio show/exposure is probably a feature not a bug. Nobody ever gives a thought to UWGB basketball. Nobody still will, probably, but maybe they get a bit of extra $ or whatever due to this and it gives them a slight leg up.

I guess it comes down to, I don't care about exposure, I care about watching a winning basketball team. And I have very little faith Gottlieb will bring that

The argument is that in the new world exposure could help create winning basketball because its all about recruiting/transfers now. I of course agree with you that this will fail but now that CBB is a free agency every year to build a new team exposure is key. In theory, alright I'm looking at horizon level teams all at generally the same pay, weather, level well you you'v now at least heard of GB so might give them more of a look/chance because of that. In addition, your coach has a national radio program that if you do well will get your NIL out there to get attention for your next transfer.

I agree it will fail, especially since I wrote Gottlieb off as a bit of an idiot years ago. But I could see this having a chance with someone better. Like say a former NBA player who has no coaching experience, well now your name stands out more if its say Kirk Heinrich or Jay Williams (to use a media person too) calling rather than someone no one has ever heard off. That former player might be a poor coach/trainer too but if he gets higher level players in that goes a long way in being a better team.

[DingleJerry]

I guess it comes down to, I don't care about exposure, I care about watching a winning basketball team. And I have very little faith Gottlieb will bring that

In this era, I have very little faith anyone they hire will. We all agree they are playing on the same "your good players will leave immediately" playing field as the rest of the Horizon/bottom half of D1, but the ceiling is also agreed on to probably be the middle of the Horizon, of which most of the league has a leg up on location, weather, facilities...why not gamble for a year or two?

I don't understand why the ceiling is the middle of the Horizon when outside of the Will Ryan era they've been in the top 3-5 teams more often than not. They can certainly be a top end Horizon team imo. Those same disadvantages you've listed have been there for years on both the men's and women's side yet the Women have consistently been near the very top of the conference and the men not far behind them. Essentially every time they've hired a legitimately qualified Head Coach(not Will Ryan) they've been an above average Horizon team. So why would should UWGB gamble being a consistently good team for a name hire who won't even devote his full attention to the job?

Fair and all. But the difference is that its a whole new era now. That past you mention is irrelevant now as its entirely a new system they're operating in.

[MVP2110]

In this era, I have very little faith anyone they hire will. We all agree they are playing on the same "your good players will leave immediately" playing field as the rest of the Horizon/bottom half of D1, but the ceiling is also agreed on to probably be the middle of the Horizon, of which most of the league has a leg up on location, weather, facilities...why not gamble for a year or two?

I don't understand why the ceiling is the middle of the Horizon when outside of the Will Ryan era they've been in the top 3-5 teams more often than not. They can certainly be a top end Horizon team imo. Those same disadvantages you've listed have been there for years on both the men's and women's side yet the Women have consistently been near the very top of the conference and the men not far behind them. Essentially every time they've hired a legitimately qualified Head Coach(not Will Ryan) they've been an above average Horizon team. So why would should UWGB gamble being a consistently good team for a name hire who won't even devote his full attention to the job?

Fair and all. But the difference is that its a whole new era now. That past you mention is irrelevant now as its entirely a new system they're operating in.

Sure, but then we're just saying UWGB will be at a disadvantage in the Horizon League because reasons? Because all of the existing disadvantages existed before, no new disadvantages have been created for UWGB, atleast in comparison to the rest of the league. Heck just this last season we saw a qualified coach get hired and they immediately popped back up to 3rd in the conference. The women's team also has these very same disadvantages and even in this new era is very competitive and at the top of the league.

[Kerb Hohl]

I guess it comes down to, I don't care about exposure, I care about watching a winning basketball team. And I have very little faith Gottlieb will bring that

In this era, I have very little faith anyone they hire will. We all agree they are playing on the same "your good players will leave immediately" playing field as the rest of the Horizon/bottom half of D1, but the ceiling is also agreed on to probably be the middle of the Horizon, of which most of the league has a leg up on location, weather, facilities...why not gamble for a year or two?

I don't understand why the ceiling is the middle of the Horizon when outside of the Will Ryan era they've been in the top 3-5 teams more often than not. They can certainly be a top end Horizon team imo. Those same disadvantages you've listed have been there for years on both the men's and women's side yet the Women have consistently been near the very top of the conference and the men not far behind them. Essentially every time they've hired a legitimately qualified Head Coach(not Will Ryan) they've been an above average Horizon team. So why would should UWGB gamble being a consistently good team for a name hire who won't even devote his full attention to the job?

Because it's bottom-tier college basketball in a completely different system...that's why I'd maybe take a gamble. You're going to lose every decent player or coach you have now...**** it. I know that everybody else in the conference is, but try to differentiate, because now you can't even try to be the best at building a 4-year team to be slightly above average in the Horizon League.

Also, women's/men's basketball isn't necessarily the same. Up until maybe very recently, you could be the "institution of mid-major women's basketball," because your coach trying to climb the ladder is not going to turn a $400k job at a mid-major to a $6 million salary like it did for Chris Beard or whatever.

If a coach has anywhere near the success in men's as the UWGB team had for women's for such a long time, he's on his way to Vanderbilt or UMass or something. Of course, times may be changing there as the prominence of women's ball rises.

[DingleJerry]

I don't understand why the ceiling is the middle of the Horizon when outside of the Will Ryan era they've been in the top 3-5 teams more often than not. They can certainly be a top end Horizon team imo. Those same disadvantages you've listed have been there for years on both the men's and women's side yet the Women have consistently been near the very top of the conference and the men not far behind them. Essentially every time they've hired a legitimately qualified Head Coach(not Will Ryan) they've been an above average Horizon team. So why would should UWGB gamble being a consistently good team for a name hire who won't even devote his full attention to the job?

Fair and all. But the difference is that its a whole new era now. That past you mention is irrelevant now as its entirely a new system they're operating in.

Sure, but then we're just saying UWGB will be at a disadvantage in the Horizon League because reasons? Because all of the existing disadvantages existed before, no new disadvantages have been created for UWGB, atleast in comparison to the rest of the league. Heck just this last season we saw a qualified coach get hired and they immediately popped back up to 3rd in the conference. The women's team also has these very same disadvantages and even in this new era is very competitive and at the top of the league.

Just saying in general pointing to a past/history which does not matter now due to everything being different doesn't prove anything either. That past is irrelevant to now. Many successful people/companies in the world get that way by getting ahead or seeing the future better than others. And in theory they're saying their prediction of the future is that the old model of "good Xs and Os development coach" (the model you want because it worked in the past) will not be as successful now due to it being all about recruiting a new team every year (and they have no money to compete) rather than coaching/development. So they tried a 'name' to recruit with instead. I'd guess they're wrong with the guy they picked, but that's the bet they're making here. And really its not far off logically with what other teams have tried with former players, its more extreme though thats for sure

[Kerb Hohl]

I don't understand why the ceiling is the middle of the Horizon when outside of the Will Ryan era they've been in the top 3-5 teams more often than not. They can certainly be a top end Horizon team imo. Those same disadvantages you've listed have been there for years on both the men's and women's side yet the Women have consistently been near the very top of the conference and the men not far behind them. Essentially every time they've hired a legitimately qualified Head Coach(not Will Ryan) they've been an above average Horizon team. So why would should UWGB gamble being a consistently good team for a name hire who won't even devote his full attention to the job?

Fair and all. But the difference is that its a whole new era now. That past you mention is irrelevant now as its entirely a new system they're operating in.

Sure, but then we're just saying UWGB will be at a disadvantage in the Horizon League because reasons? Because all of the existing disadvantages existed before, no new disadvantages have been created for UWGB, atleast in comparison to the rest of the league. Heck just this last season we saw a qualified coach get hired and they immediately popped back up to 3rd in the conference. The women's team also has these very same disadvantages and even in this new era is very competitive and at the top of the league.

Before the portal/NIL and the leagues changing, I'd wager that Wisconsin never would've fired somebody like Paul Chryst and got somebody like Luke Fickell.

The entire Big Ten had the rules change for them in the same way just like the Horizon all is at the same, new disadvantage? Why did it change for Wisconsin if everyone faced the same rule changes?

Because the entire system is different.

You now longer can put the same inputs into the process and expect the same results. Just like Wisconsin football (and maybe basketball) realized it can't develop a bunch of kids from Fennimore and Pewaukee and beat up on a garbage B10 West that did not have the transfer portal at its disposal, they had to adapt or they'd die.

[MVP2110]

In this era, I have very little faith anyone they hire will. We all agree they are playing on the same "your good players will leave immediately" playing field as the rest of the Horizon/bottom half of D1, but the ceiling is also agreed on to probably be the middle of the Horizon, of which most of the league has a leg up on location, weather, facilities...why not gamble for a year or two?

I don't understand why the ceiling is the middle of the Horizon when outside of the Will Ryan era they've been in the top 3-5 teams more often than not. They can certainly be a top end Horizon team imo. Those same disadvantages you've listed have been there for years on both the men's and women's side yet the Women have consistently been near the very top of the conference and the men not far behind them. Essentially every time they've hired a legitimately qualified Head Coach(not Will Ryan) they've been an above average Horizon team. So why would should UWGB gamble being a consistently good team for a name hire who won't even devote his full attention to the job?

Because it's bottom-tier college basketball in a completely different system...that's why I'd maybe take a gamble. You're going to lose every decent player or coach you have now...**** it. I know that everybody else in the conference is, but try to differentiate, because now you can't even try to be the best at building a 4-year team to be slightly above average in the Horizon League.

Also, women's/men's basketball isn't necessarily the same. Up until maybe very recently, you could be the "institution of mid-major women's basketball," because your coach trying to climb the ladder is not going to turn a $400k job at a mid-major to a $6 million salary like it did for Chris Beard or whatever.

If a coach has anywhere near the success in men's as the UWGB team had for women's for such a long time, he's on his way to Vanderbilt or UMass or something. Of course, times may be changing there as the prominence of women's ball rises.

The UWGB womens team saw Borseth & Bollant leave for better jobs and they continued sustaining success. My point is, outside of the Will Ryan era where they hired a coach more for his name then his qualifications they've always been on the higher end of the Horizon League. The disadvantages that exist now are the same that existed before atleast as far as the conference goes. Idc about trying to catch lightning in a bottle for some magical run for one year and then turn back into a pumpkin, I want to be consistently competitive in the Horizon League every year which I believe can be done at UWGB because it has been. But in order to do that they need to hire quality coaches who are actually qualified to do the job. All of this talk that UWGB is irrelevant and a bottom tier school is just speculation on what people think will happen in the new era but there is no actual evidence of that occurring.

[MVP2110]

Fair and all. But the difference is that its a whole new era now. That past you mention is irrelevant now as its entirely a new system they're operating in.

Sure, but then we're just saying UWGB will be at a disadvantage in the Horizon League because reasons? Because all of the existing disadvantages existed before, no new disadvantages have been created for UWGB, atleast in comparison to the rest of the league. Heck just this last season we saw a qualified coach get hired and they immediately popped back up to 3rd in the conference. The women's team also has these very same disadvantages and even in this new era is very competitive and at the top of the league.

Before the portal/NIL and the leagues changing, I'd wager that Wisconsin never would've fired somebody like Paul Chryst and got somebody like Luke Fickell.

The entire Big Ten had the rules change for them in the same way just like the Horizon all is at the same, new disadvantage? Why did it change for Wisconsin if everyone faced the same rule changes?

Because the entire system is different.

You now longer can put the same inputs into the process and expect the same results. Just like Wisconsin football (and maybe basketball) realized it can't develop a bunch of kids from Fennimore and Pewaukee and beat up on a garbage B10 West that did not have the transfer portal at its disposal, they had to adapt or they'd die.

Nobody is saying UWGB needs to succeed in the same ways it always has, they successfully adapted to the times last year under Sunny. Their women's team successfully adapted under Borseth. They can change with the times with an actual qualified Head Coach as opposed to a guy who won't even quit his day job

[DingleJerry]

Best I've come up with for something UW could try to 'moneyball' the new system as they transition from Gard would be a bit different than this. UW is different though in that they can get fairly high money (just not blue blood type) whereas a UWGB just cannot.

My best idea is to transition money from coaches to players. It seems counter intuitive as other schools are handing record contracts to coaches, but outside of the top top guys is that really worth it (especially if it leaves less money to buy players). So the idea would be tell Gardo he's done unless his salary starts going down, he'll probably take his buyout and leave. Since we'll never attract the top top coach, hire what you think is the best unknown guy you can get for say 1.5 mil rather than the 4-5 mill they're paying now. Spend that freed up 2-3 mil on players instead. Or if you're Gard, would you rather keep making 2 mil per year (rather than 4-5 he is now) and have an extra 2 mil to spend on better players? But in general, would UWs team be drastically worse off with say Krabbenhoft as HC at 1.5 mil + 2 more mil to spend on players or Gard at 4 mil?

[Kerb Hohl]

I don't understand why the ceiling is the middle of the Horizon when outside of the Will Ryan era they've been in the top 3-5 teams more often than not. They can certainly be a top end Horizon team imo. Those same disadvantages you've listed have been there for years on both the men's and women's side yet the Women have consistently been near the very top of the conference and the men not far behind them. Essentially every time they've hired a legitimately qualified Head Coach(not Will Ryan) they've been an above average Horizon team. So why would should UWGB gamble being a consistently good team for a name hire who won't even devote his full attention to the job?

Because it's bottom-tier college basketball in a completely different system...that's why I'd maybe take a gamble. You're going to lose every decent player or coach you have now...**** it. I know that everybody else in the conference is, but try to differentiate, because now you can't even try to be the best at building a 4-year team to be slightly above average in the Horizon League.

Also, women's/men's basketball isn't necessarily the same. Up until maybe very recently, you could be the "institution of mid-major women's basketball," because your coach trying to climb the ladder is not going to turn a $400k job at a mid-major to a $6 million salary like it did for Chris Beard or whatever.

If a coach has anywhere near the success in men's as the UWGB team had for women's for such a long time, he's on his way to Vanderbilt or UMass or something. Of course, times may be changing there as the prominence of women's ball rises.

The UWGB womens team saw Borseth & Bollant leave for better jobs and they continued sustaining success. My point is, outside of the Will Ryan era where they hired a coach more for his name then his qualifications they've always been on the higher end of the Horizon League. The disadvantages that exist now are the same that existed before atleast as far as the conference goes. Idc about trying to catch lightning in a bottle for some magical run for one year and then turn back into a pumpkin, I want to be consistently competitive in the Horizon League every year which I believe can be done at UWGB because it has been. But in order to do that they need to hire quality coaches who are actually qualified to do the job. All of this talk that UWGB is irrelevant and a bottom tier school is just speculation on what people think will happen in the new era but there is no actual evidence of that occurring.

You can probably see my post above this for my thoughts.

After 2021 or so, the way you build a team changed 100%. Even though the rules changed the same for everyone at the top. So you just can't have the same, "this used to work, therefore I'd like to keep doing it" argument that I'd have given you for 5+ years with Greg Gard or any Badger football coaches.

Also, the entire reason that UWGB this year was solid this year was completely opposite of their good seasons of previous decades. In the past, it was 4-year guys that were overlooked by Wisconsin + juco additions that stayed for several years. I'm interested to see how Wicks does, because he took over a low-tier D1 team and brought a guy that Big Ten schools wanted with him from Wyoming by also hiring his brother as an assistant. That's basically like the success Pat Baldwin would've had if Jr. wasn't always hurt. Is he actually a good coach or did he just get his one lucky NIL/portal era gift right away?

[MVP2110]

Because it's bottom-tier college basketball in a completely different system...that's why I'd maybe take a gamble. You're going to lose every decent player or coach you have now...**** it. I know that everybody else in the conference is, but try to differentiate, because now you can't even try to be the best at building a 4-year team to be slightly above average in the Horizon League.

Also, women's/men's basketball isn't necessarily the same. Up until maybe very recently, you could be the "institution of mid-major women's basketball," because your coach trying to climb the ladder is not going to turn a $400k job at a mid-major to a $6 million salary like it did for Chris Beard or whatever.

If a coach has anywhere near the success in men's as the UWGB team had for women's for such a long time, he's on his way to Vanderbilt or UMass or something. Of course, times may be changing there as the prominence of women's ball rises.

The UWGB womens team saw Borseth & Bollant leave for better jobs and they continued sustaining success. My point is, outside of the Will Ryan era where they hired a coach more for his name then his qualifications they've always been on the higher end of the Horizon League. The disadvantages that exist now are the same that existed before atleast as far as the conference goes. Idc about trying to catch lightning in a bottle for some magical run for one year and then turn back into a pumpkin, I want to be consistently competitive in the Horizon League every year which I believe can be done at UWGB because it has been. But in order to do that they need to hire quality coaches who are actually qualified to do the job. All of this talk that UWGB is irrelevant and a bottom tier school is just speculation on what people think will happen in the new era but there is no actual evidence of that occurring.

You can probably see my post above this for my thoughts.

After 2021 or so, the way you build a team changed 100%. Even though the rules changed the same for everyone at the top. So you just can't have the same, "this used to work, therefore I'd like to keep doing it" argument that I'd have given you for 5+ years with Greg Gard or any Badger football coaches.

Also, the entire reason that UWGB this year was solid this year was completely opposite of their good seasons of previous decades. In the past, it was 4-year guys that were overlooked by Wisconsin + juco additions that stayed for several years. I'm interested to see how Wicks does, because he took over a low-tier D1 team and brought a guy that Big Ten schools wanted with him from Wyoming by also hiring his brother as an assistant. That's basically like the success Pat Baldwin would've had if Jr. wasn't always hurt. Is he actually a good coach or did he just get his one lucky NIL/portal era gift right away?

Again nobody is saying UWGB shouldn't change with the times. They absolutely should, I'd just prefer to do it with an actual qualified coach as opposed to just a "big name". UWGB has shown it can win in the modern era in both men's and women's basketball.

Also there were more players than just Reynolds on UWGB last year. As stated they also had the Horizon League Freshman of the Year who was originally going to stick around until Sunny left.

[Mags FTW]

I don't mind the hire. They are 330-321 over the last 20 years. It's not like this is a hire that can tarnish their reputation or "set them back". As long as he doesn't treat college kids like crap like Deion does, it's all entertainment in the end.

[ReginaldDwight]

I don't mind the hire. They are 330-321 over the last 20 years. It's not like this is a hire that can tarnish their reputation or "set them back". As long as he doesn't treat college kids like crap like Deion does, it's all entertainment in the end.

One things for certain its got them some eyeballs. That said, the players should hide their discover cards. The fact hes gonna still do his show is downright hilarious, but I have heard some rumblings about a potential postseason ban next season for UWGB and that might be why hes signed on for 5 years, also why they saw such an exodus of players this offseason.

[BUCKnation]

The wardle era was really good. The last year with sykes and brown, fringe nba guys, should have netted them an at large bid when they lost the conference tournament final. They got a good amount of top 25 votes by the end of that season.

[Kerb Hohl]

I don't mind the hire. They are 330-321 over the last 20 years. It's not like this is a hire that can tarnish their reputation or "set them back". As long as he doesn't treat college kids like crap like Deion does, it's all entertainment in the end.

One things for certain its got them some eyeballs. That said, the players should hide their discover cards. The fact hes gonna still do his show is downright hilarious, but I have heard some rumblings about a potential postseason ban next season for UWGB and that might be why hes signed on for 5 years, also why they saw such an exodus of players this offseason.

Postseason ban? Because of Gottlieb's prior transgressions? Something Wicks did?

I would imagine a mass exodus of players is because basically the entire NCAA had a mass exodus combined with their coach leaving, which adds more.