Bucks News, Transactions, Trade Ideas - Bucks deny Pistons to talk to Horst

[ShootingtheJ]

You just listed teams with 1 non shooter in the lineup at a time. That's what we have now. Of course that works. No one is arguing that.

You do realize Giannis and Adams would be in the lineup at the same time right? That's 2 non shooters at once. That's COMPLETELY different.

Zion WIlliamson next to Steven Adams shot 84% of his attempts at the hoop and averaged 27 points a game. You can unquestionably make two non shooters work.

Giannis in a pick and roll with a big and Dame off the ball works. Giannis in the dunker spot with Dame running a pick and roll with a guy works. Giannis in the post with a big man opposite works. Giannis on the elbow with a guy in the dunker spot works. There's so many ways to exploit help defense with another big. If you want to run pure iso ball where we have two guys standing there doing absolutely nothing and hoping Dame can get into the lane, sure, you're probably in for a tough time.

To me by far the biggest problem would be finding a guy defensively that fits. Like I wouldn't even really want a Steven Adams because I think if teams play smaller, or even just have a shooting big, you take him out of the game defensively like a Brook. A more athletic, switching big though I think could work.

If you gave me a Bam Adebayo, a Jarrett Allen, an Isaiah Hartenstein, etc I'm unquestionably taking them over a lot of similar level players just because they shoot 35% from three for this team.

Hartenstein works because we'd just have him go back to being a 3 point shooter like he was with the Clippers. However, signing him is a real trick. We could possibly clear the salary to open the MLE, but we'd be screwed if he was offered more than the MLE.

Adams just had too much going against him to be a Brook replacement.

[Baddy Chuck]

You just listed teams with 1 non shooter in the lineup at a time. That's what we have now. Of course that works. No one is arguing that.

You do realize Giannis and Adams would be in the lineup at the same time right? That's 2 non shooters at once. That's COMPLETELY different.

Zion WIlliamson next to Steven Adams shot 84% of his attempts at the hoop and averaged 27 points a game. You can unquestionably make two non shooters work.

Giannis in a pick and roll with a big and Dame off the ball works. Giannis in the dunker spot with Dame running a pick and roll with a guy works. Giannis in the post with a big man opposite works. Giannis on the elbow with a guy in the dunker spot works. There's so many ways to exploit help defense with another big. If you want to run pure iso ball where we have two guys standing there doing absolutely nothing and hoping Dame can get into the lane, sure, you're probably in for a tough time.

To me by far the biggest problem would be finding a guy defensively that fits. Like I wouldn't even really want a Steven Adams because I think if teams play smaller, or even just have a shooting big, you take him out of the game defensively like a Brook. A more athletic, switching big though I think could work.

If you gave me a Bam Adebayo, a Jarrett Allen, an Isaiah Hartenstein, etc I'm unquestionably taking them over a lot of similar level players just because they shoot 35% from three for this team.

When the Warriors won the championship a few years ago their most used (and best) lineup in that championship run featured Draymond Green and Kevon Looney, a whole lot of shooting going on there huh?

Hartenstein works because we'd just have him go back to being a 3 point shooter like he was with the Clippers. However, signing him is a real trick. We could possibly clear the salary to open the MLE, but we'd be screwed if he was offered more than the MLE.

Adams just had too much going against him to be a Brook replacement.

Hartenstein shot 30 threes that year and had a complete aberration of a year shooting, if you want to even call it that on that sample size. The next year Knicks gave him even more threes which he shot at 21%. Bad FT shooter his whole career, doesn't shoot from mid range even, half a three attempted per 36. Signing him to be a shooter would be hilarious, that's for sure.

[ShootingtheJ]

Thinking of free agents. Do you guys think Goga, Tillman, or Precious could be had on the tpmle if we get below the second apron?

Goga lost playing time late, I'm guessing he's minimum guy. He really improved defensively, too bad he hasn't realized his shooting potential. I'd still make him one of the targets to back up Brook if/when we move Bobby.

I would think Detroit will decline the large tender it would take to make Wiseman a RFA. He'd be my first target, then Goga and Bamba. It would be handy if we could open even part of the tpmle.

[ShootingtheJ]

Zion WIlliamson next to Steven Adams shot 84% of his attempts at the hoop and averaged 27 points a game. You can unquestionably make two non shooters work.

Giannis in a pick and roll with a big and Dame off the ball works. Giannis in the dunker spot with Dame running a pick and roll with a guy works. Giannis in the post with a big man opposite works. Giannis on the elbow with a guy in the dunker spot works. There's so many ways to exploit help defense with another big. If you want to run pure iso ball where we have two guys standing there doing absolutely nothing and hoping Dame can get into the lane, sure, you're probably in for a tough time.

To me by far the biggest problem would be finding a guy defensively that fits. Like I wouldn't even really want a Steven Adams because I think if teams play smaller, or even just have a shooting big, you take him out of the game defensively like a Brook. A more athletic, switching big though I think could work.

If you gave me a Bam Adebayo, a Jarrett Allen, an Isaiah Hartenstein, etc I'm unquestionably taking them over a lot of similar level players just because they shoot 35% from three for this team.

Hartenstein works because we'd just have him go back to being a 3 point shooter like he was with the Clippers. However, signing him is a real trick. We could possibly clear the salary to open the MLE, but we'd be screwed if he was offered more than the MLE.

Adams just had too much going against him to be a Brook replacement.

Hartenstein made 30 threes that year and had a complete aberration of a year shooting, if you want to even call it that on that sample size. The next year Knicks gave him even more threes which he shot at 21%. Bad FT shooter his whole career, doesn't shoot from mid range even, half a three attempted per 36. Signing him to be a shooter would be hilarious, that's for sure.

Players excell at what coaches have them focus on. Thibs made Hartenstein focus on the 5' floater.

[JayMKE]

Its just dumb, there’s nothing to address. You fix the line up simply by removing the bad defenders who need to chuck the ball to find a rhythm, figure out which. The team was a top 5 rebounding and defending team before, when Bud was here the team regularly didnt even need to play their starters in the 4th now no lead is safe. Giannis plays both sides of the ball, he creates for others, I don’t need to list his accomplishments and he hasn’t fell off rather his teammates.

If a guy doesn't play defense then he shouldn't be on the team period, thats where Horst made the mistake in addition to making the team even older. Can’t win with guys like that, they wreck whole line ups. No matter how great of an individual defender 1 guy is, they’re not going to fix the issue of having a sieve in the line up and especially with multiple. How is Dame literally the only guy who gets worse with better teammates? If you’re throwing Giannis under the bus then Dame should already be roadkill!

[Baddy Chuck]

Players excell at what coaches have them focus on. Thibs made Hartenstein focus on the 5' floater.

Coaches also usually have players focus on what they're good at.

[Baddy Chuck]

Thinking of free agents. Do you guys think Goga, Tillman, or Precious could be had on the tpmle if we get below the second apron?

Goga lost playing time late, I'm guessing he's minimum guy. He really improved defensively, too bad he hasn't realized his shooting potential. I'd still make him one of the targets to back up Brook if/when we move Bobby.

I would think Detroit will decline the large tender it would take to make Wiseman a RFA. He'd be my first target, then Goga and Bamba. It would be handy if we could open even part of the tpmle.

I could get behind Wiseman. Kinda a young(er) version of Gafford. Athletic roll man who can gobble up boards. Like Gafford still pretty dumb defensively though, maybe he could grow out of that.

[Baddy Chuck]

If a guy doesn't play defense then he shouldn't be on the team period, thats where Horst made the mistake in addition to making the team even older. Can’t win with guys like that, they wreck whole line ups.

I know you're a giant Nuggets hater and diminish them winning a championship but it's still so funny to me reading a lot of these posts the year after they won with Jamal Murray and Michael Porter Jr, even funnier knowing some of your Jokic defense stances too.

[-Jragon-]

There was a time when just having more star power and talent was enough to win. All the "big 3" teams are basically out in Cancun. It's team ball, plays, 2 way role players, efficient ball, smart ball, hit the open shot and make the extra pass.

If we did trade Middleton we don't necessarily need someone of equal talent back.. it would be more playere maybe that play the above ways.

if youre going to trade stars and break up our big 3 and you want....

team ball, plays 2 ways, efficient, with smart ball, and hits the open shot or makes the extra pass..... then its khris you start with on that definition.

hes the guy we should acquire not the guy you trade first. a team built around 3 khris middletons in the playoffs playing the 2, 3, and 4 is a hell of a start. give him a game managing 3 and d pg with a rim protecting switchable stretch big and you have something these days

I think the part we disagree on is if KM is or isn't a 2 way player. I see him as offense only and barely staying with or challenging shots anymore. Having 3 is basically how our perimeter D was the 1st half of this year. A lot of pointing and less challenging shots and like no physical D.

So my ideal would be Giannis/Dame and a whole team of Bevs/AJGs/AJJs/Nimhards/Bams...
Just pesky mfers that are always in your face, screening, moving and you have to at least account for them on offense (not as prolific at getting buckets alone like Khris). So now your D is physical and buzzing around. There were many guys in here that said when KM was out we looked faster and when he came back instantly we look older. He slows down the D and he also slows down the ball movement often (not always). So in theory, use KM, BP, Pat C, maybe Brook and target the "nexts" of those types of guys. You replace KM's 1v1 stuff with more efficient team ball, drives that draw fouls, passing til there's an open shot maybe running more, definitely inside outside with Giannis. The time we would miss KM are those 12 min when Giannis/Dame are out and you don't have a bucket getter at the end of a winding shot clock -- so we'd have to figure that out.

In general, give Giannis more guys that hustle and run to play with Giannis. I feel like it's the 1 thing we didn't try. I think that's what fires him up. We need enough shooters but as you guys mentioned, not everyone has to as long as they are dangerous from somewhere. With the gravity of GA and DL, guys like AJJ should be flying in off back cuts when their guy turns their head. Our coaches need to get their heads out of their a$$es and instill that knowledge -- we do NOT look like a smart team.

[theFireBlanket]

Its just dumb, there’s nothing to address. You fix the line up simply by removing the bad defenders who need to chuck the ball to find a rhythm, figure out which. The team was a top 5 rebounding and defending team before, when Bud was here the team regularly didnt even need to play their starters in the 4th now no lead is safe. Giannis plays both sides of the ball, he creates for others, I don’t need to list his accomplishments and he hasn’t fell off rather his teammates.

If a guy doesn't play defense then he shouldn't be on the team period, thats where Horst made the mistake in addition to making the team even older. Can’t win with guys like that, they wreck whole line ups. No matter how great of an individual defender 1 guy is, they’re not going to fix the issue of having a sieve in the line up and especially with multiple. How is Dame literally the only guy who gets worse with better teammates? If you’re throwing Giannis under the bus then Dame should already be roadkill!

Beasley only thrived in the two games with a cushion of a lead. Marques Johnson singled out his lack of defense costing them vs Indiana (Hear District Ep. 12).

Maybe with a healthy roster, Giannis, Dame, Khris... he fares better. But there's no beating around the bush about them attacking him to go on runs. Love watching him hit shots but if he isn't, & he's giving up layup lines or making lazy reads/switches, it's not enough.

Its like Bryn Forbes only working in spots, pretty much round 1 & that was it.

[JayMKE]

If a guy doesn't play defense then he shouldn't be on the team period, thats where Horst made the mistake in addition to making the team even older. Can’t win with guys like that, they wreck whole line ups.

I know you're a giant Nuggets hater and diminish them winning a championship but it's still so funny to me reading a lot of these posts the year after they won with Jamal Murray and Michael Porter Jr, even funnier knowing some of your Jokic defense stances too.

Im sorry I dont remember all your dumb takes to find them funny enough to bring them up randomly but what’s your point here? That you think the Bucks can win a championship with **** ass defense and that they should stay the course? Or that we just need to trade Bobby & Pat for upgrades that are also younger + cheaper? Well yea duh of course why didnt Horst think of that.

[Baddy Chuck]

If a guy doesn't play defense then he shouldn't be on the team period, thats where Horst made the mistake in addition to making the team even older. Can’t win with guys like that, they wreck whole line ups.

I know you're a giant Nuggets hater and diminish them winning a championship but it's still so funny to me reading a lot of these posts the year after they won with Jamal Murray and Michael Porter Jr, even funnier knowing some of your Jokic defense stances too.

Im sorry I dont remember all your dumb takes to find them funny enough to bring them up randomly but what’s your point here? That you think the Bucks can win a championship with **** ass defense and that they should stay the course? Or that we just need to trade Bobby & Pat for upgrades that are also younger + cheaper? Well yea duh of course why didnt Horst think of that.

My point is that bad defenders don't always wreck linueps to the point of not being able to win. Sometimes at the absolutely highest level. Like last season. Like the team that literally every time I'd head over to the general board I'd see you flaming in some way or another, just like you're doing to the Bucks now. You're doing the same talks in absolutes and certainties you did with them right up until the point that they won it all and we haven't heard a whole lot since.

[ShootingtheJ]

Thinking of free agents. Do you guys think Goga, Tillman, or Precious could be had on the tpmle if we get below the second apron?

Goga lost playing time late, I'm guessing he's minimum guy. He really improved defensively, too bad he hasn't realized his shooting potential. I'd still make him one of the targets to back up Brook if/when we move Bobby.

I would think Detroit will decline the large tender it would take to make Wiseman a RFA. He'd be my first target, then Goga and Bamba. It would be handy if we could open even part of the tpmle.

I could get behind Wiseman. Kinda a young(er) version of Gafford. Athletic roll man who can gobble up boards. Like Gafford still pretty dumb defensively though, maybe he could grow out of that.

Yeah, experience and watching Brook hopefully helps the defense. Offensively, in sure they'll work to capitalize on the 3 point potential he showed early

[yb90]

Then we watch the playoffs and continually see non shooters get ignored and kill their teams offenses

P.j. Washington is a non shooter yet has had a positive impact for Dallas.

Nope, 35% career 3 point shooter. Shooting 41% from 3 in the playoffs so far this year.

Dude shot under 35% he last two years. He is not a shooter he is just a guy that shoots and is on a hot streak in his last two games. It's similar to Josh Hart shooting so far this playoffs.

[JayMKE]

I know you're a giant Nuggets hater and diminish them winning a championship but it's still so funny to me reading a lot of these posts the year after they won with Jamal Murray and Michael Porter Jr, even funnier knowing some of your Jokic defense stances too.

Im sorry I dont remember all your dumb takes to find them funny enough to bring them up randomly but what’s your point here? That you think the Bucks can win a championship with **** ass defense and that they should stay the course? Or that we just need to trade Bobby & Pat for upgrades that are also younger + cheaper? Well yea duh of course why didnt Horst think of that.

My point is that bad defenders don't always wreck linueps to the point of not being able to win. Sometimes at the absolutely highest level. Like last season. Like the team that literally every time I'd head over to the general board I'd see you flaming in some way or another, just like you're doing to the Bucks now. You're doing the same talks in absolutes and certainties you did with them right up until the point that they won it all and we haven't heard a whole lot since.

Okay so whats the next step? Does the team crack the core open or does it stay the course? I think it would be crazy to bring to same team back and expect better results especially considering age. I get the impression you think this is a championship team if healthy which with this team currently is an incredibly optimistic prospect. I just never felt the team was close all year whereas I believed it every year under Bud.

As for the GB, I’m not sure how familiar you are with it or how the MVP debates tend to play out there but Jokic fans and the analytics evangelists are about as absolutist & condescending as you can get. The narrative was Giannis shouldn’t get anymore MVP votes until he proves he can win in the postseason only for that to be discarded later when he did. This standard wasn’t applied to Jokic or Embiid and that was basically the crux of the whole argument. Minor side act to the Jokic & Embiid fan holy war.

[Baddy Chuck]

Okay so whats the next step? Does the team crack the core open or does it stay the course? I think it would be crazy to bring to same team back and expect better results especially considering age. I get the impression you think this is a championship team if healthy which with this team currently is an incredibly optimistic prospect. I just never felt the team was close all year whereas I believed it every year under Bud.

I think the core is championship worthy. Giannis/Dame/Khris I believe is good enough to beat pretty much anyone in the league. I think having the core is the hardest part of winning in the NBA, the next hardest is finding the right guys to put around them. We got Dame at the 11th hour in the offseason. After we committed to Brook, after we committed to Beasley, after the draft and other players/trades fell by the wayside. Now I think this offseason is when we will see us try to build a cohesive unit around our core. To me running it back would be a problem. I think the Brook/Bobby pairing has always had severe limitations next to Giannis and adding Dame, Khris a little older and slower, furthers that. I think we're probably not planning on going into next season with AJ Green as our starting shooting guard. I'm not doom and gloom on our assets. Bobby/Brook are solid players that I think some teams will value, we'll have a first round pick (maybe 2?) and a high second as well as salary fodder in Pat (maybe Marjon). Outside of like a max all-star guy, I think we could make a play for basically anyone that comes available. I think we have a 2-3 year window where we will be major players in the league still. I wouldn't give that up for a hope and a prayer that in 2-3 (or longer) years Giannis is still the same player and young guys and picks we put around him figure it out to that level which is the other alternative to me, outside of the nuclear option of trading everyone (Giannis included) and shutting it down.

[raferfenix]

Michael Scotto is hearing JV is out from New Orleans.

They want a 5 that can shoot.

Scotto: There’s a sense Jonas Valanciunas won’t return as a Pelican this offseason in free agency, I’m told. Valanciunas essentially split center minutes with Larry Nance Jr. this season and was benched often to close games. When Zion is healthy and playing, Valanciunas occupies the paint and clogs driving lanes for Zion. While he’s still a double-double threat, he’s not an ideal fit for this roster, and his near double-double production will likely be more valued by other teams on the unrestricted free-agent market.

https://hoopshype.com/lists/pelicans-rumors-zion-williamson-brandon-ingram-cj-mccollum-trades-free-agency/

[German Athens]

If Detroit really wants veterans, do you think they’d do Pat + 33 for Grimes and Metu?

[WeMajor34]

If Detroit really wants veterans, do you think they’d do Pat + 33 for Grimes and Metu?

I would do that in a heartbeat. With how things are going in Detroit, maybe they’d do it too. They’ve been a way station for bad contracts for a couple of years now.

[pifhluk23]

How is Dame literally the only guy who gets worse with better teammates? If you’re throwing Giannis under the bus then Dame should already be roadkill!

Part of one of the best 3 man offensive lineups in the NBA only behind a couple Jokic lineups and top 5 def rtg 3 man too. Stats > narrative