RealGM

europa wrote:I thought at the time Pritchard screwed up badly with regards to Raef's contract. And the Blazers got burned in the playoffs as a result. In retrospect (and that's tricky given how good the Cavs were looking at the time), Ferry screwed the pooch with Wally's expiring too. I'm not absolving Hammond for passing on a trade I think he should have made but as Simmons points out, Ferry should have been more aggressive and the fact he wasn't cost his team a chance to get to the Finals and possibly a championship.

Pretty much agree here. Hammond should have been able to swing a deal with either team, but they had absolutely no sense of urgency along with the mind-set of being "less desperate".... it wouldn't have killed them to throw in a promising prospect such as Hickson/Gibson from the Cavs or Webster/Bayless/Rudy/Outlaw from the Blazers. Add RJ to the Cavs and they are still playing right now and Blazers would have at least got passed the first round.

One of the GM's had to bite the bullet and make a sacrifice, and neither did. All 3 teams having to pay the price. (Milwaukee hugging the lux tax, Portland being eliminated early and the Cavs missing the Finals.....and maybe losing Bron Bron in the future)

I wish we were the ones dangling expirings to become a contender, but I'm fine with the fact that we didn't give away RJ for no talent coming back.

raferfenix wrote:I definitely like your attitude Paul! I've never been entirely of the blame Hammond, but I've been very worried about his moves/nonmoves from this season. I really hope you are right though, and that Hammond not trading RJ had to do with a long term negotiating posture and, more importantly, changing the attitude of this franchise top down.

However, one caveat---you can't just say we didn't trade RJ because we didn't want to keep CV. That's certainly true, but what I think has everyone upset is the difficulty with which we have to keep Sessions, our draft pick, Ersan, and whatever else necessary to set up a playoff caliber bench.

Here's hoping he'll still be able to do this. Even more ideally, his hardball at the deadline will convince teams to raise their offers---it's not like the Cavs have any less need for a guy like RJ at this point!

That's an excellent point that I raised a while back rafer, several teams had poor playoff showings (or didn't get there) and now have much more of a 'need' than they did at the deadline imo. Cleveland for example absolutely know that if they want RJ or anything else then they are going to have to give us a reasonable deal in return, which is precisely what I was talking about with 'not being taken advantage of' and what that can do for ones bargaining position in the future. It might come with some short term pain, but it's an important part of the game imo.

No, it doesn't. But if a gm and highly respected coach don't want a guy on their team I'd suggest there's a reason for that.

If this is the criteria for grading moves, than every move the Bucks have made in the last year have been great since a gm and a highly respected coach signed off on them.

There obviously wasn't a decent deal out there for him or it would have been made. There is still the possibility of a S&T, but I do feel they'll let him walk and that's ok by me. I also think Hammond and probably Kohl were extremely conscious of not allowing this team to 'fall off a cliff' like it has in the past. That is important in building a long term winner imo, and worth the 50th pick in a crappy draft or whatever we might have gotten.

If CV wasn't a part of their long term plans, they should have gotten anything for him, period. If that resulted in the team being worse in the 2nd half of last season, great, we could be talking about getting Blake Griffin or Ricky Rubio right now.

RJ is more important to this (or almost any other) team than CV period, I'm not going to get into a debate about that. If you're talking money versus production then maybe but I could also make that argument by saying Moute at his contract level is worth more than Kobe on that scale when clearly that isn't the case.

RJ is not important to this team. This team could be using his 15 million dollar contract in far better ways. For one RJ, we possibly could have Sessions, CV, Ersan and our draft pick. Instead, we may have RJ and maybe our pick. This team does not need a Richard Jefferson. We could easily win the 35-40 games we will next year without him and develop more young talent. He's a solid player and a legit 3rd option on a championship team, but this team has no use for him.

This past season saw the Bucks take giant steps to no longer being a laughing stock imo.

How? We made the worst pick of the draft, the worst trade of the season, and we are in one of the worst salary situations in the league, and this past season only added to it.

I don't think we screwed it up, nor do I think it was a fair deal, nor do I think financial flexibility is more important to the Bucks than on court production.

So you'd rather win 40 games with RJ rather than clearing 15 million in cap and winning 35 games? I guess 40 is an improvement....

You must have missed the part where I said players 'who we want'. We did not want Mo, that is incredibly obvious.

Of course we didn't, that is why we are the Bucks.

I'm absolutely certain some posters hope Hammond fails, the four most powerful words on this board seem to be 'I told you so". Of course they'd rather see the Bucks win, but you can't tell me people (including yourself) don't enjoy bagging the hell out of Hammond, or you guys wouldn't spend half your lives doing it. And yes, the mentality has changed.

It's hard not to expect failure with the moves he has made. If he had made different moves, there would be far different rhetoric on the forum than you see today. The reason the animosity towards Hammond is so great is because posters that would have no reason being an NBA GM such as myself saw these terrible moves and could see what would happen as a result, but the guy getting paid millions to do it can't.

I still really want to know how the mentality has changed. Because we don't have a shoot first PG? Besides Mo being gone, this is the exact same Bucks team we've had the last 5 years, instead we have a $15 million dollar average SF now instead of an $8 million one (Simmons).

paul wrote:That's an excellent point that I raised a while back rafer, several teams had poor playoff showings (or didn't get there) and now have much more of a 'need' than they did at the deadline imo.

I've made this point too. The landscape now is completely different than it was in February. It's different for the Bucks and for a lot of other teams too. What happened or did not happen at the deadline is, in my opinion, completely irrelevant in terms of predicting what may happen going forward. I think far too much that has changed for it to carry over with much validity.

RJ is important to this team? His awful shooting, bad rebounding and mediocre assist numbers and defense are that important all at the price of $14 million?

The Bucks are in worse shape than I thought.

trwi7 wrote:RJ is important to this team? His awful shooting, bad rebounding and mediocre assist numbers and defense are that important all at the price of $14 million?

The Bucks are in worse shape than I thought.

As someone said in another thread. "PPG, PPG PPG!" That's what matters.

REDDzone wrote:

trwi7 wrote:RJ is important to this team? His awful shooting, bad rebounding and mediocre assist numbers and defense are that important all at the price of $14 million?

The Bucks are in worse shape than I thought.

As someone said in another thread. "PPG, PPG PPG!" That's what matters.

Yeah given it was me saying that in the other thread it's safe to assume that isn't the reason. RJ isn't a spectacular player and he started the season in a manner that I wasn't happy with, but he's a solid all around player who brings an intensity and fire that this team as lacked. He's a good character guy, a veteran leader who can do most things in the game well. I didn't say he's irreplaceable as he's clearly not, but yes having a solid guy like that in a starting position does make him 'important'.
PPG PPG and PPG have nothing to do with it.

He's a good character, veteran leader who showed up badly out of shape because he didn't want to be here. Then he brought an intesity and fire for 2 weeks before the trade deadline in hopes of being traded which was extinguished the night after it became clear he was stuck here.

With intangibles like these...

Jefferson averaged 25.6 points per game on 53.8% shooting (47.5% from 3) with 4 assists and 1.4 steals per game in April.

So much for the fire being extinguished.

midranger wrote:He's a good character, veteran leader who showed up badly out of shape because he didn't want to be here. Then he brought an intesity and fire for 2 weeks before the trade deadline in hopes of being traded which was extinguished the night after it became clear he was stuck here.

With intangibles like these...

You are the worlds greatest exaggerator.

Just being honest.

Ask Skiles how thrilled he was with RJ's conditioning coming into camp.

midranger wrote:He's a good character, veteran leader who showed up badly out of shape because he didn't want to be here. Then he brought an intesity and fire for 2 weeks before the trade deadline in hopes of being traded which was extinguished the night after it became clear he was stuck here.

With intangibles like these...

thats simply not true .


He maintained a level of intensity that was fairly consitant all year .


And youre excaggerating the " BADLY " out of shape . He was out of shape , ill give you that .. but it wasnt "BADLY" out of shape .. What he did is no diffrent then what most nba vets do and thats come in and play yourself into shape . Its not a new thing midranger . Most pros come in and work themself into game shape .



I guess you would of prefered bobby simmons and YI !

europa wrote:Jefferson averaged 25.6 points per game on 53.8% shooting (47.5% from 3) with 4 assists and 1.4 steals per game in April.

So much for the fire being extinguished.

Yeah cause we all know how he was only playing hard to get traded ..

paul wrote:Yeah given it was me saying that in the other thread it's safe to assume that isn't the reason. RJ isn't a spectacular player and he started the season in a manner that I wasn't happy with, but he's a solid all around player who brings an intensity and fire that this team as lacked. He's a good character guy, a veteran leader who can do most things in the game well. I didn't say he's irreplaceable as he's clearly not, but yes having a solid guy like that in a starting position does make him 'important'.
PPG PPG and PPG have nothing to do with it.

I just don't see what he does on the floor that's so good. But then again I'm biased against forwards who don't rebound.

REDDzone wrote:I just don't see what he does on the floor that's so good. But then again I'm biased against forwards who don't rebound.

When he was on, I thought he was a pretty good scorer. But the more important thing were the intangibles. Yeah, I know some guys want to flame away about that, but for the first time in a long time we actually had a player who on the court, in the locker-room and on the team bus seemed to step up and take some leadership initiative. Watching the games you could see the other guys would look to him for leadership. And while he's not LeBron, RJ has the credentials to get some respect from those other guys.

Considering our offense and defense were both better with RJ off the floor, it's hard for me to consider him valuable.

http://www.82games.com/0809/08MIL9.HTM

Offense per 100 possessions: 107.1 on court, 108.7 off
Defense per 100 possessions: 109.2 on court, 108.8 off

That is an entire season sample too, so there really isn't any way to spin it.

From Day 1, you could see RJ talking to everyone on the court and, more importantly, you could see the players were listening. I think that was a big part of the Bucks' improvement this season. He is someone who commands respect and if you ask people in the organization they will tell you that RJ's approach both in practice and during games was invaluable to this team this season.

If others don't view that highly, that's their right. I'm with Press, for the first time in awhile, the Bucks had a legitimate leader on this team.

LUKE23 wrote:Considering our offense and defense were both better with RJ off the floor, it's hard for me to consider him valuable.
.

Yea. Not to mention below average scoring efficiency, below average rebounding, average defense, and above average leadership intangibles should not cost 15 million a year.

REDDzone wrote:Yea. Not to mention below average scoring efficiency, below average rebounding, average defense, and above average leadership intangibles should not cost 15 million a year.

Oh, he's way overpaid. Massively. No one is arguing that. But where I'll now diverge with Europa is that bringing RJ in to change the stench in the locker-room was a good thing, but then Hammond had to immediately then trade Redd because having both of those guys at their salaries was going to be a car wreck as it relates to the payroll.

paulpressey25 wrote:

REDDzone wrote:I just don't see what he does on the floor that's so good. But then again I'm biased against forwards who don't rebound.

When he was on, I thought he was a pretty good scorer. But the more important thing were the intangibles. Yeah, I know some guys want to flame away about that, but for the first time in a long time we actually had a player who on the court, in the locker-room and on the team bus seemed to step up and take some leadership initiative. Watching the games you could see the other guys would look to him for leadership. And while he's not LeBron, RJ has the credentials to get some respect from those other guys.

Without a doubt man .


It will be better with RJ to if we can get healhty , i mean sometimes your leader is as good as the people following you .


Their was a time at the free throw line ..Cv was lined up on one side , rj right across .. and the mic picked up RJ saying :


" What the hell was that bull on the other end , move the ball next time " ...


Just the fact that RJ knows how to play the game the right way and is going to hold people accountable means alot to me . Even when he struggled , he rarely forced . Thats another thing i liked about RJ is he beleived in running the sets regardless of the night he was having .


With all that being said , if we can get some younger talent in here and save some bucks as the wiz scenerio outlines .. id do it in a minute .