PG Indy - Pathetic

[Brewhoopfan]

What do we do with Brook though? He looks unplayable against any serious team, looked that way last year too.

I mean....no? It's clear to me that this team needs two reliable lineups going into the playoffs. The starters (Dame/Beas/Middleton/Giannis/Brook) are the 3rd most used 5-man lineup in the league and are bulldozing people (+12.9 net-rating). That's gonna be your lineup against Philly, Miami, or a potential Finals matchup with Denver. But against teams like Indiana, Boston, or a potential Finals series vs. say, the Clippers? We don't really have that proven small-ball lineup yet. Crowder can slot in at the 4 but then that still probably leaves you one defensive perimeter guy short. That's where you need to get a Thybulle or Caruso.

Or put all your trust in AJJ's development and live with his mistakes. Teach him to become the defender we desperately need. Same with MJ as a major piece from the bench. And be open about it that you're fine with a few more losses than needed.

While I agree with this, I'm losing patience with AJJ as he commits unnecessary fouls continually. Is he a slow learner? Are the coaches not teaching?

[Profound23]

The thing with Dame is

he is bad defensively, ok this is no surprise, we have to pair him with a defensive specialist, his pairing with Beasley does not work

he has not been particularly efficient. I don't worry about that, he has a body of work, he will get better

But I have not been impressed with his playmaking, he is no floor general for sure.

If Dame wants a title, he's gonna need to get into a stance and show some heart. He still has above average quickness, anticipates really well, and has good strength. He's not getting a pass from me. I've seen flashes of him being really good on the ball. Even his lack of height is offset by a good (6'7") wingspan. The tools are there, and he is no longer on a team needing him to save his energy to carry the offense. How bad does he want it? We shall see.

I really think if we knew we were getting Dame we would have went after a Patrick Beverly type in free agency to help our defense instead of a Beasley type.

Now we have to hope AJJ develops quickly or that we can just provide lights out shooting in the playoffs.

[sidney lanier]

Also, I don't care what you guys say about Haliburton.

He seems destined for a great career however:
1.) He carries on almost every possession
2.) He is pretty full of himself for a guy that hasn't accomplished anything in the NBA. Come playoff time this Pacer team will be humbled quickly by any one of Boston, Philly, Milwaukee, or Miami.

I agree. Too bad a Wisconsin kid is proving to be such a punk. That four-step travel early in the game that left him bellowing "Noooo" to the rafters was a good encapsulation of who he is.

Indy is hot now, but this too shall pass. Not a team I would fear in the playoffs despite them running circles around us last night. Like almost everyone else, I thought last night's loss was especially disappointing, but my disappointment does not extend to firing the coach or going out to get better defenders or trashing schemes over an early January road loss.

However, if we lose to San Antonio, relegation, baby!

[Ron Swanson]

I mean....no? It's clear to me that this team needs two reliable lineups going into the playoffs. The starters (Dame/Beas/Middleton/Giannis/Brook) are the 3rd most used 5-man lineup in the league and are bulldozing people (+12.9 net-rating). That's gonna be your lineup against Philly, Miami, or a potential Finals matchup with Denver. But against teams like Indiana, Boston, or a potential Finals series vs. say, the Clippers? We don't really have that proven small-ball lineup yet. Crowder can slot in at the 4 but then that still probably leaves you one defensive perimeter guy short. That's where you need to get a Thybulle or Caruso.

Or put all your trust in AJJ's development and live with his mistakes. Teach him to become the defender we desperately need. Same with MJ as a major piece from the bench. And be open about it that you're fine with a few more losses than needed.

While I agree with this, I'm losing patience with AJJ as he commits unnecessary fouls continually. Is he a slow learner? Are the coaches not teaching?

The simpler explanation: he's a rookie

[SirChurros]

The thing with Dame is

he is bad defensively, ok this is no surprise, we have to pair him with a defensive specialist, his pairing with Beasley does not work

he has not been particularly efficient. I don't worry about that, he has a body of work, he will get better

But I have not been impressed with his playmaking, he is no floor general for sure.

The thing with Dame is that he’s being asked to stand in the corner half the game while Giannis or someone else initiates the action.

I honestly do not think anyone other than Dame or occasionally Khris should be bringing the ball up the floor and initiating a halfcourt offense.

[Profound23]

The thing with Dame is

he is bad defensively, ok this is no surprise, we have to pair him with a defensive specialist, his pairing with Beasley does not work

he has not been particularly efficient. I don't worry about that, he has a body of work, he will get better

But I have not been impressed with his playmaking, he is no floor general for sure.

The thing with Dame is that he’s being asked to stand in the corner half the game while Giannis or someone else initiates the action.

I honestly do not think anyone other than Dame or occasionally Khris should be bringing the ball up the floor and initiating a halfcourt offense.

I watched Dame take the ball up often yesterday and jack up horrible shots. Now, when he makes those shots it looks good but when he misses them like he has done the past few games it is hard to win. I often wonder if we acquired Curry, KD, Joker if they would all lose their shot coming to Milwaukee. Glad so far Beasley has proved that theory wrong but it seems every time we acquire a shooter there is a problem.

[SirChurros]

The thing with Dame is

he is bad defensively, ok this is no surprise, we have to pair him with a defensive specialist, his pairing with Beasley does not work

he has not been particularly efficient. I don't worry about that, he has a body of work, he will get better

But I have not been impressed with his playmaking, he is no floor general for sure.

The thing with Dame is that he’s being asked to stand in the corner half the game while Giannis or someone else initiates the action.

I honestly do not think anyone other than Dame or occasionally Khris should be bringing the ball up the floor and initiating a halfcourt offense.

I watched Dame take the ball up often yesterday and jack up horrible shots. Now, when he makes those shots it looks good but when he misses them like he has done the past few games it is hard to win. I often wonder if we acquired Curry, KD, Joker if they would all lose their shot coming to Milwaukee. Glad so far Beasley has proved that theory wrong but it seems every time we acquire a shooter there is a problem.

I mean, he’s hovering pretty close to his career efficiency numbers?

[emunney]

Or put all your trust in AJJ's development and live with his mistakes. Teach him to become the defender we desperately need. Same with MJ as a major piece from the bench. And be open about it that you're fine with a few more losses than needed.

While I agree with this, I'm losing patience with AJJ as he commits unnecessary fouls continually. Is he a slow learner? Are the coaches not teaching?

The simpler explanation: he's a rookie

And pretty confident he's playing the way the coaches are telling him to play. As a team we've just got to stop bellying up to dudes 35-40 feet from the rim. Jevon is a pest on the ball but he doesn't let you get all the way to his body when you have your dribble. We do it before guys even put the ball on the floor. We just give it to them. It's ridiculous. Guys make contact and either get the call or get their shoulder around you and they're gone.

Either this or coherently getting back on defense are the lowest hanging fruit. They're connected, too, because picking up super high is either reason 1a or 1b why the paint is empty in transition.

[Profound23]

The thing with Dame is that he’s being asked to stand in the corner half the game while Giannis or someone else initiates the action.

I honestly do not think anyone other than Dame or occasionally Khris should be bringing the ball up the floor and initiating a halfcourt offense.

I watched Dame take the ball up often yesterday and jack up horrible shots. Now, when he makes those shots it looks good but when he misses them like he has done the past few games it is hard to win. I often wonder if we acquired Curry, KD, Joker if they would all lose their shot coming to Milwaukee. Glad so far Beasley has proved that theory wrong but it seems every time we acquire a shooter there is a problem.

I mean, he’s hovering pretty close to his career efficiency numbers?

That's fine. Just need more of those makes against playoff teams and less against Spurs, Rockets, Pistons.

[SirChurros]

I watched Dame take the ball up often yesterday and jack up horrible shots. Now, when he makes those shots it looks good but when he misses them like he has done the past few games it is hard to win. I often wonder if we acquired Curry, KD, Joker if they would all lose their shot coming to Milwaukee. Glad so far Beasley has proved that theory wrong but it seems every time we acquire a shooter there is a problem.

I mean, he’s hovering pretty close to his career efficiency numbers?

That's fine. Just need more of those makes against playoff teams and less against Spurs, Rockets, Pistons.

41.7/37.4 shooting splits against eastern conference playoffs teams. You’d obviously like to see that field goal percentage higher, but the notion that Dame has lost his shot isn’t rooted in reality.

[JimmyTheKid]

Also, I don't care what you guys say about Haliburton.

He seems destined for a great career however:
1.) He carries on almost every possession
2.) He is pretty full of himself for a guy that hasn't accomplished anything in the NBA. Come playoff time this Pacer team will be humbled quickly by any one of Boston, Philly, Milwaukee, or Miami.

He's only annoying because the Bucks can't shut him up. If he was playing at a HOF pace for his home state team there wouldn't be a peep about the "cocky" "trash talk" stuff. We'd all absolutely adore him. Because, again, he's a coach's wet dream point guard the way he makes the right play 99% of the time, and a teammate's wet dream the way he puts each player in their optimal position to succeed. Not to mention his shooting efficiency when making plays for himself. You'd have a tough time constructing a better player in a lab.

[Ron Swanson]

Griffin could be telling him all the wrong things but it's still crazy that some of you guys do this every single year with rookies. It's almost like there's a reason that you have to be a historical outlier type talent to be an actual contributor/rotation guy as a rookie on a championship team. We did this a while back where even if you just lowered the bar to "Finals participants" in the last 20-years, it was like, Courtney Lee and Tyler Herro and that's it....

[Matches Malone]

During training camp, Griffin talked about being overly aggressive playing the ball because, and I quote, "Refs can't call everything". On top of that Ajax is a rookie so he's going to give you some of those silly fouls.

That being said, I'm not sure you can count on him during the playoffs just yet.

[emunney]

Griffin could be telling him all the wrong things but it's still crazy that some of you guys do this every single year with rookies. It's almost like there's a reason that you have to be a historical outlier type talent to be an actual contributor/rotation guy as a rookie on a championship team. We did this a while back where even if you just lowered the bar to "Finals participants" in the last 20-years, it was like, Courtney Lee and Tyler Herro and that's it....

Certainly a fair point, just not the only thing going on.

[DingleJerry]

The thing with Dame is

he is bad defensively, ok this is no surprise, we have to pair him with a defensive specialist, his pairing with Beasley does not work

he has not been particularly efficient. I don't worry about that, he has a body of work, he will get better

But I have not been impressed with his playmaking, he is no floor general for sure.

The thing with Dame is that he’s being asked to stand in the corner half the game while Giannis or someone else initiates the action.

I honestly do not think anyone other than Dame or occasionally Khris should be bringing the ball up the floor and initiating a halfcourt offense.

Right, if you haven't seen Dame play the last 10 years you might think this. however, if you have then you know he is a playmaker and one gets the ball moving around. He is what you want but he's not being allowed to do it. This is scheme/coaching here. And as of now he's going along with it but sure doesn't seem to be hiding his displeasure with his bad body language and somewhat passive aggressive swipes in interviews.

To the initiating, yes when he's on the floor he should be doing that almost every time. He is literally one of the best players ever at it. When he's out, Giannis should have 12-15 mins each game to just go full bananas. I mentioned this last night too, their rotations of not staggering them is dumb. Their rotations to not have at least one of them on the floor at all times is dumb. Again, coaching. But partially on Dame if he's insisting on the playing whole 1Q and 3Q thing, my guess is at this point he'd shake that up cuz he seems unhappy right now

And for those that didn't see it posted last night he just averaged 26 ppg on 47/43/93 shooting splits in December. This isn't him magically turning into a pumpkin after one of his best seasons and he just had a month right in line with his norms, if not better. This is the coach being an idiot and an all time great being frustrated by it

[pifhluk23]

Also, I don't care what you guys say about Haliburton.

He seems destined for a great career however:
1.) He carries on almost every possession
2.) He is pretty full of himself for a guy that hasn't accomplished anything in the NBA. Come playoff time this Pacer team will be humbled quickly by any one of Boston, Philly, Milwaukee, or Miami.

He's only annoying because the Bucks can't shut him up. If he was playing at a HOF pace for his home state team there wouldn't be a peep about the "cocky" "trash talk" stuff. We'd all absolutely adore him. Because, again, he's a coach's wet dream point guard the way he makes the right play 99% of the time, and a teammate's wet dream the way he puts each player in their optimal position to succeed. Not to mention his shooting efficiency when making plays for himself. You'd have a tough time constructing a better player in a lab.

agree except a lab grown Hali would have much better shooting mechanics

[paulpressey25]

As a team we've just got to stop bellying up to dudes 35-40 feet from the rim.

Either this or coherently getting back on defense are the lowest hanging fruit. They're connected, too, because picking up super high is either reason 1a or 1b the reason the paint is empty in transition.

The entire thing is ridiculous. Smart coaches and teams with a modicum of talent know they just blow past the Bucks. Then you either take the floater, or you dish to the cutter for the layup or dunk.

Another nonsensical component of this is why Giannis is many times a long ways from the hoop, ostensibly guarding the "corner three". I saw this a lot last night. He's so far from the hoop, he can't recover fast enough.

[MoreTrife]

I came across this gem from Grief talking about our defense before the season started.

https://wtmj.com/sports/2023/10/16/bucks-coach-griffin-breaks-down-defense-starters/

The first-year head coach said that protecting the paint and minimizing high-percentage shots, including paint touches and free throws, will be the top priority for his team. From there, the team will look at taking away corner three-pointers — the easiest type of 3-point shot to make, statistically.

Last, but certainly not least, Coach Griffin says his Milwaukee Bucks will try to chase shooters away from above-the-break 3-pointers, forcing them into contested jumpers from deep or in the mid-range area. Once the bread-and-butter of NBA jump shooters, non-paint, two-point shot attempts are now considered the most favorable from a defender’s perspective.

“We’re not going to ever leave one guy on the island. Obviously, you’ve gotta take pride in guarding your man, keeping him in the front, but we’ve got to help each other; and when somebody helps, you’ve got to help the helper so we’re tied together, and that’s what makes a great defensive team,” Coach Griffin explained.

I mean, we are 26th in the league at protecting the paint, and the worst team in the league over our last 5-6 games (even worse than the Pistons, Spurs etc).

Does the Front Office do this simple level of self-analysis or do they simply say "Ahhh we're 24-10, we have Giannis and Dame, we'll be fine" and end the self-reflection there? There can't be many positive stats around this team other than 4th quarter net rating maybe? Ballooned by offensive rating.

[paulpressey25]

And for those that didn't see it posted last night he just averaged 26 ppg on 47/43/93 shooting splits in December. This isn't him magically turning into a pumpkin after one of his best seasons and he just had a month right in line with his norms, if not better. This is the coach being an idiot and an all time great being frustrated by it

Our only way through this is Dame convincing Giannis that Grief is incompetent, and must go.

[-Jragon-]

Khris keeps doing his Bud impression from on the floor. Whenever Dame makes a shot or 2 you can bet your bottom dollar Khris says, 'my turn' and brings the ball coast to coast without even letting Dame touch it... Dame isn't that type of player... when he's hot you literally have to force feed him and let him get scortching. The problem is, Khris might need the same thing... Stagger their minutes AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE (for that and defensive reasons) or trade Khris and get someone else in that can contribute without having the ball much and gives more hustle/defense/screens. Time is running out to fix the roster.. maybe the coach staggering them fixes this bs... also Khris falling on his a$$ after demanding the ball from Dame up top was super *special wtf... Indy could double KM and take it anytime they wanted, they just saved it for an inopportune moment to humiliate us