PG Spurs - Win

[Prez]

I'm glad we're at the "who cares, it's just sports" phase now

I'm considering putting in a sand box so I can bury my head in it until the playoffs start (don't subreddit me!).

Probably a great idea. Whats funny is that ever since Giannis became the Giannis we all know and love, I'm always saying "regular seasons don't matter." But this year just looks and feels all sorts of wrong.

I think there was definitely a time when that was somewhat close to true. Like in the title season, they were ass defensively for like a month and a half to close the regular season, before flipping a switch and having one of the best playoff defenses in recent memory en route to the title. Then in the following season, kinda similar thing where they coasted a decent amount, Brook missed most of the year, and yet they still locked in and took Boston to 7 without Middleton on the back of really tough, physical defense (outside of Grayson/Hill getting their faces fried off lol).

Problem this season is that it's pretty clearly not just a low effort in the regular season thing, but there are glaring schematic issues that aren't just going to magically go away with a flip of a switch effort-wise.

[BigO]

I always thought there were schematic issues in the past with Bud, but it was based on his rigid reliance on one main scheme when scheme should be based not only on your talent, but the team you're playing.

Bud to his credit, albeit reluctantly, took out Brook at key times of the championship run and went to switching. I just wish they had practiced it more so that they could have been better at it, especially in the prior years to the championship.

I was semi-optimistic that Griffin was flexible when he changed it up and brought Brook back to the paint. But the problems are still obvious and just as obvious is that he hasn't done anything about it. He appears to believe that continuing to play the same "new" scheme against everyone will eventually succeed as the players get better at it. I don't see it.

I also hope that the owners and Horst not only see what we see, but won't let a season get lost in order to be nice to Griffin. I don't have time for lost seasons. Losing to Toronto after being up two was a lost season. Not again.

[soxperry]

I'm considering putting in a sand box so I can bury my head in it until the playoffs start (don't subreddit me!).

Probably a great idea. Whats funny is that ever since Giannis became the Giannis we all know and love, I'm always saying "regular seasons don't matter." But this year just looks and feels all sorts of wrong.

I think there was definitely a time when that was somewhat close to true. Like in the title season, they were ass defensively for like a month and a half to close the regular season, before flipping a switch and having one of the best playoff defenses in recent memory en route to the title. Then in the following season, kinda similar thing where they coasted a decent amount, Brook missed most of the year, and yet they still locked in and took Boston to 7 without Middleton on the back of really tough, physical defense (outside of Grayson/Hill getting their faces fried off lol).

Problem this season is that it's pretty clearly not just a low effort in the regular season thing, but there are glaring schematic issues that aren't just going to magically go away with a flip of a switch effort-wise.

Well, schematic issues COULD go away if we just changed them.. but i think the most important factor is personnel issues.

Even when we had Jrue, we still also had personnel issues that become increasingly apparent each season. Over the past 4 seasons, the NBA has gotten significantly younger, more athletic, and more skilled. It's astounding. So with each passing year, the rise of that tide has eroded the biggest weakness of this team on defense.

Biggest weakness: we are an old, unathletic team that has trouble staying in front of fast players. Jrue helped cover this up. We played Wes (almost zero offense) Matthews at the starting 2 to help cover this up. We played Brook in deep drop and instructed the team to play off, no fouls, and force the other team to make jumpers. We all got upset about giving up a ton of open 3s, but it turns out that there's something much worse than that: giving up a **** ton of open layups.

So now there is no Jrue, no Wes, not even Grayson. We are relying on Dame, Malik, an even older and less fluid Khris, and an even older and slower Brook. To compound it, we are "being aggressive" instead of sitting back. This is a dumpster fire on defense and it can't continue like this.

[soxperry]

the key to all of this is Khris Middleton.

we need to decide if we are moving forward with him or not. if we are, then whoever is on the court with he, Giannis, and Dame needs to be REALLY good on D. There's a world where Brook doesn't need to be traded, but that world relies on a much better scheme and a much, much better defender at the 2 (who shadows Dame's minutes). Malik can come off the bench when Dame sits, but they can't both be on the court together anymore.

I believe this will also help our offense as Dame will have more shot opportunities with Beas on the bench, and we can inch him closer to his Portland usage.

[VooDoo7]

Sports are not that important in the scheme of life.

Ah, for a professional athlete, basketball is an important part of life.

But for a fan to be angry because of a basketball opinion posted online by another fan .... how many pages does that occupy in your autobiography?

Getting upset over someone's opinion on the internet, yeah, I get what you're saying. I was reacting to you saying sports isn't an important part of peoples' lives. It is. Big time.

[bango_the_buck]

Bud got fired mainly because of his lack of defensive adjustments and his unwillingness to change based on player input. He had a system he believed in, kept things simple, and thought it better to be good at one thing (i.e., the drop defense) rather than a master of none. Griff was hired to do the opposite, which is very difficult, particularly when the players are not necessarily used to or suited for many of the schemes. They are trying to do too much and there are too many cooks in the kitchen. As a result, the players look disorganized and out of sync. Everyone is to blame for this (players, coaches, GM, etc). It's good to continue using regular season games to practice different looks so you can implement them when needed, but at some point Griff needs to take the reigns and establish what the appropriate identity of the team is.

No....he.....wasn't. Griffin was hired to be a fresh voice that the players would listen to while keeping what works with this roster (why on earth would we have kept Brook and Bobby if we felt a seismic defensive philosophy shift was necessary?). You guys are actually seeing what a real stubborn coach looks like now that this myth of Bud being inflexible has been thoroughly shattered into a million pieces. If being stubborn is, like "actively doing **** that works", then man, that Phil Jackson guy sure was a stubborn idiot trying to force his triangle offense on all these dudes for decades.

Yes...he...was. A fresh voice. A more aggressive, adaptable defense (that would ideally build on what was working). A greater willingness to listen to his star player and let him guard the person that was single handedly eliminating the team from the playoffs. These were some of the reasons stated (or implied) to justify moving on from Bud. Not really debateble. Whether you agree with the criticism is another matter. I'm on record as saying it was a reactionary mistake to fire Bud and I was afraid we would end up regretting it because the grass isn't always greener (not that it was some great prediction).

[soxperry]

Ah, for a professional athlete, basketball is an important part of life.

But for a fan to be angry because of a basketball opinion posted online by another fan .... how many pages does that occupy in your autobiography?

Getting upset over someone's opinion on the internet, yeah, I get what you're saying. I was reacting to you saying sports isn't an important part of peoples' lives. It is. Big time.

well, it is, but it also isn't when you zoom out a bit. and it also maybe shouldn't be. but then again, many times, it really is.

i guess it just depends on if we won or lost

[Ron Swanson]

There's absolutely no correlation between youth/athleticism and defensive ability though. We'd all kill for 36-year old PJ and 35-year old Wes Matthews right now, but even they wouldn't drastically change anything when they'd be asked to pressure the ball-handler at the 3PT line while leaving a wide open driving lane to the rim.

[soxperry]

Bud got fired mainly because of his lack of defensive adjustments and his unwillingness to change based on player input. He had a system he believed in, kept things simple, and thought it better to be good at one thing (i.e., the drop defense) rather than a master of none. Griff was hired to do the opposite, which is very difficult, particularly when the players are not necessarily used to or suited for many of the schemes. They are trying to do too much and there are too many cooks in the kitchen. As a result, the players look disorganized and out of sync. Everyone is to blame for this (players, coaches, GM, etc). It's good to continue using regular season games to practice different looks so you can implement them when needed, but at some point Griff needs to take the reigns and establish what the appropriate identity of the team is.

No....he.....wasn't. Griffin was hired to be a fresh voice that the players would listen to while keeping what works with this roster (why on earth would we have kept Brook and Bobby if we felt a seismic defensive philosophy shift was necessary?). You guys are actually seeing what a real stubborn coach looks like now that this myth of Bud being inflexible has been thoroughly shattered into a million pieces. If being stubborn is, like "actively doing **** that works", then man, that Phil Jackson guy sure was a stubborn idiot trying to force his triangle offense on all these dudes for decades.

Yes...he...was. A fresh voice. A more aggressive, adaptable defense (that would ideally build on what was working). A greater willingness to listen to his star player and let him guard the person that was single handedly eliminating the team from the playoffs. These were some of the reasons stated (or implied) to justify moving on from Bud. Not really debateble. Whether you agree with the criticism is another matter. I'm on record as saying it was a reactionary mistake to fire Bud and I was afraid we would end up regretting it because the grass isn't always greener (not that it was some great prediction).

perhaps the grass isn't greener. perhaps Bud is a better coach than any of the candidates we were left with, but there are two factors that seemed to have necessitated his firing:

1. an absolutely embarrassing first round exit as a 1 seed, losing to an 8 seed, 4 to 1. Enough said.

2. Giannis seemed to be tired of Bud and had a contract decision coming up. here's where my knowledge of how Giannis actually felt about Bud ends and speculation begins. And maybe the front office wasn't 100% on this either. But they knew that the stakes were EXTREMELY high. You cannot lose Giannis. You cannot. So any coaching decision is about keeping Giannis first and foremost. Just like the decision to trade for the top player on his wishlist. If you look at Giannis's comments after Griff was hired, and especially after the first few practices, the front office hit the hire out of the park from a "make Giannis happy" standpoint. Is there another universe where they held firm, folded their arms, and hired the absolute best tactical coach they could get their hands on and Giannis still stays? Sure, but that would have been more of a gamble.

it's entirely possible that Giannis will look back someday and wish he were more patient with Bud, but he's human. You never have the benefit of hindsight in the moment.

[soxperry]

There's absolutely no correlation between youth/athleticism and defensive ability though. We'd all kill for 36-year old PJ and 35-year old Wes Matthews right now, but even they wouldn't drastically change anything when they'd be asked to pressure the ball-handler at the 3PT line while leaving a wide open driving lane to the rim.

it seems pretty obvious that, as players get older and slower, or in some cases go through multiple surgeries and lose some athleticism, that their defense will suffer. that's what i meant. not that "just because someone is young and athletic they are automatically a good defender."

[RogerMurdock]

We might not have loved that the Bucks only squeaked by the Spurs, but basketball fans LOVED that game and Giannis is getting high praise in the media (this is just one example):

Watch on YouTube

[emunney]

I think most Bucks fans would have been thrilled, when the record was 2-2, to know that the team would go 23-8 over the next 31 games.

Lots of room for improvement. Lots of red flags. But ignoring the W-L record is just as short sighted as ignoring the other issues regularly beat to death on this forum.

This isn’t some happy-go-lucky, glad-to-be-here situation. It’s championship or bust, and the team should be held to those standards.

Don't denigrate my post with a blatant mis-categorization of what I said.

1. I think that back on November 1, after disheartening blowout losses to Atlanta and Toronto, few fans were expecting the Bucks to go 23-8 over the next 31 games.

2. There is a lot of room for improvement. There are many red flags with how the team has played.

3. Ignoring the red flags regularly discussed on this forum is just as shortsighted as ignoring the W-L record. (Acknowledging one does not deny the other)

I think my statements above are generally accurate. Which of those points do you disagree with?

I agree with you that the Bucks goal is a championship. I disagree with your implication that somehow fans on this site do or do not hold the team accountable to that being the goal. Or that the tenor of discussions on this forum somehow enables the team to be less diligent in pursuing a title, or conversely, forces them to focus on a championship against their will.

The players, coaches, front office and owners all have a ton invested in this team and this season. They are collectively accountable to each other, not to a (relatively) handful of fans on an internet discussion forum. Getting traded (Brogdon, Bledsoe, DiVincenzo, Nwora, Hill twice, Holiday, Allen) shows every player that they are being held accountable. The Budenholzer firing shows every coach that they are being held accountable. John Hammond moving to Orlando shows the front office that they are accountable. Millions spent in luxury tax payments shows everyone that the owners are serious. I can't imagine that once ever in the last ten years the Bucks have done anything to make winning a higher priority so that they could earn the approval of an internet discussion forum. Reddit and RealGM are mere drops of water in the ocean of public opinion.

I disagree with the implied premise that people are ignoring the W-L record.

[soboMP3]

I have to be honest, I didn't watch a minute of the game live last night. I was helping get the kids to bed and then decided to go to the gym because in January, that's when its least busy.

On occasion, I pulled up the game thread while on the treadmill and/or lifting weights. I was expecting a terribly embarrassing game... Then I got home and poured myself a nice big Bourbon, expecting to be angry... and... What did I witness? A thoroughly entertaining game.

Yes, the Grief defense continues to be hilarious... but that was a fun game.

[old skool]

Ah, for a professional athlete, basketball is an important part of life.

But for a fan to be angry because of a basketball opinion posted online by another fan .... how many pages does that occupy in your autobiography?

Getting upset over someone's opinion on the internet, yeah, I get what you're saying. I was reacting to you saying sports isn't an important part of peoples' lives. It is. Big time.

We are on the same page, I think.

Sports and athletic competition is important and healthy. Great to be intense about it, as a competitor or fan. But it is not, in my opinion, as important as being a good person, having a career that provides for you and family, having personal connections, good health, helping others, emotional stability, being honest and reliable etc. Those are the types of things I was referring to as "life"; things that I feel transcend sports. I expect that for most people here sports fandom is a hobby, a diversion, a pastime.

I enjoy discussing basketball here and I value varied perspectives. I think it is misplaced emotion to get angry when a fan opines that everything in Bucks-land is ok because of their W-L record. That anger reveals more about the angry individual than the fan with which he/she disagrees. We are just fans with opinions about a sport we follow to varying degrees. I don't see how getting angry over a sport related fan opinion is proportionate or adds to the discussion. That's my perspective.

[nagawicka]

This isn’t some happy-go-lucky, glad-to-be-here situation. It’s championship or bust, and the team should be held to those standards.

Don't denigrate my post with a blatant mis-categorization of what I said.

1. I think that back on November 1, after disheartening blowout losses to Atlanta and Toronto, few fans were expecting the Bucks to go 23-8 over the next 31 games.

2. There is a lot of room for improvement. There are many red flags with how the team has played.

3. Ignoring the red flags regularly discussed on this forum is just as shortsighted as ignoring the W-L record. (Acknowledging one does not deny the other)

I think my statements above are generally accurate. Which of those points do you disagree with?

I agree with you that the Bucks goal is a championship. I disagree with your implication that somehow fans on this site do or do not hold the team accountable to that being the goal. Or that the tenor of discussions on this forum somehow enables the team to be less diligent in pursuing a title, or conversely, forces them to focus on a championship against their will.

The players, coaches, front office and owners all have a ton invested in this team and this season. They are collectively accountable to each other, not to a (relatively) handful of fans on an internet discussion forum. Getting traded (Brogdon, Bledsoe, DiVincenzo, Nwora, Hill twice, Holiday, Allen) shows every player that they are being held accountable. The Budenholzer firing shows every coach that they are being held accountable. John Hammond moving to Orlando shows the front office that they are accountable. Millions spent in luxury tax payments shows everyone that the owners are serious. I can't imagine that once ever in the last ten years the Bucks have done anything to make winning a higher priority so that they could earn the approval of an internet discussion forum. Reddit and RealGM are mere drops of water in the ocean of public opinion.

I disagree with the implied premise that people are ignoring the W-L record.

People are ignoring the W-L record.

[emunney]

Don't denigrate my post with a blatant mis-categorization of what I said.

1. I think that back on November 1, after disheartening blowout losses to Atlanta and Toronto, few fans were expecting the Bucks to go 23-8 over the next 31 games.

2. There is a lot of room for improvement. There are many red flags with how the team has played.

3. Ignoring the red flags regularly discussed on this forum is just as shortsighted as ignoring the W-L record. (Acknowledging one does not deny the other)

I think my statements above are generally accurate. Which of those points do you disagree with?

I agree with you that the Bucks goal is a championship. I disagree with your implication that somehow fans on this site do or do not hold the team accountable to that being the goal. Or that the tenor of discussions on this forum somehow enables the team to be less diligent in pursuing a title, or conversely, forces them to focus on a championship against their will.

The players, coaches, front office and owners all have a ton invested in this team and this season. They are collectively accountable to each other, not to a (relatively) handful of fans on an internet discussion forum. Getting traded (Brogdon, Bledsoe, DiVincenzo, Nwora, Hill twice, Holiday, Allen) shows every player that they are being held accountable. The Budenholzer firing shows every coach that they are being held accountable. John Hammond moving to Orlando shows the front office that they are accountable. Millions spent in luxury tax payments shows everyone that the owners are serious. I can't imagine that once ever in the last ten years the Bucks have done anything to make winning a higher priority so that they could earn the approval of an internet discussion forum. Reddit and RealGM are mere drops of water in the ocean of public opinion.

I disagree with the implied premise that people are ignoring the W-L record.

People are ignoring the W-L record.

I disagree. People understand the context.

[theFireBlanket]

Bud's the coach Giannis wouldn't name wrt "feeling the greatness of the moment" ? My pick (but...)

Or is it Jason Kidd? Despite dissuading him specifically about 3s.

Something controversial to saying the name. So he didn't.

[GoldenAntlers]

I have to be honest, I didn't watch a minute of the game live last night. I was helping get the kids to bed and then decided to go to the gym because in January, that's when its least busy.

On occasion, I pulled up the game thread while on the treadmill and/or lifting weights. I was expecting a terribly embarrassing game... Then I got home and poured myself a nice big Bourbon, expecting to be angry... and... What did I witness? A thoroughly entertaining game.

Yes, the Grief defense continues to be hilarious... but that was a fun game.

Most of us will agree that the game was very entertaining.

The Bucks were terrible though and squeezed out a win against one of the worst teams in NBA history. It's definitely alarming.

[PG Graveyard]

I have to be honest, I didn't watch a minute of the game live last night. I was helping get the kids to bed and then decided to go to the gym because in January, that's when its least busy.

On occasion, I pulled up the game thread while on the treadmill and/or lifting weights. I was expecting a terribly embarrassing game... Then I got home and poured myself a nice big Bourbon, expecting to be angry... and... What did I witness? A thoroughly entertaining game.

Yes, the Grief defense continues to be hilarious... but that was a fun game.

Most of us will agree that the game was very entertaining.

The Bucks were terrible though and squeezed out a win against one of the worst teams in NBA history. It's definitely alarming.

If Wemby stays healthy that Spurs team is going to win some games the rest of the way. They aren’t Detroit bad now that they have Wemby playing the 5 and Sochan no longer the PG