How good is Mo Williams?

[europa]

Mo is similar to Bogut IMO....there are a lot of nice things he does but no one top-tier thing.

That's one of the biggest problems with this entire team - other than Redd, no other player has anything close to a top-tier attribute. Mo and Bogut are the second- and third-best players on this team behind Redd. Place them however you like but they're second and third. But neither of them are anything more than slightly above-average players at best at the present time - and if that's the best you can get from two of your top three players that's a huge problem. It becomes an even greater problem when the majority of your roster could only hope in their wildest dreams that maybe someday they could be average. Maybe.

As epi's stats have pointed out many times. the Bucks' Top 3 players (Redd, Bogut and Mo) are by far the best players on this team and it isn't even close. Unfortunately, that trio ranks poorly among other trios in the league. That's a horrible combination.

[paulpressey25]

Sim...I like the new avatar and slogan....fits perfectly.

Europa...yes, Redd is elite in scoring....he's the only guy we've got who is elite in anything.

[WEFFPIM]

Personally, I think Mo is one of three guys on the team the Bucks should keep and gut the rest. Mo, Andrew, Yi.

Mo isn't Steve Nash or Jason Kidd or what have you, but he is an above average PG that should be held on to.

[europa]

Europa...yes, Redd is elite in scoring....he's the only guy we've got who is elite in anything.

And that's a huge asset - or at least it should be viewed as one. Imagine how much better the Bucks would be if Mo was an elite passer, for example, or Bogut an elite rebounder. Team those attributes with Redd's scoring ability and wouldn't this team be better? Isn't that rather obvious?

But there's nothing close to that. All this team has is the hope that maybe Yi develops something close to an elite skill at some point. As much as I like Bogut, my belief in him has waned a bit this season given the fact he's done almost nothing to improve his offensive game. I love his defensive improvements but he really needed to take a big step forward offensively and it simply hasn't happened. While Mo has improved his PG play, I don't ever see him becoming an elite PG or possessing elite PG skills of any kind during his career.

The Bucks are pretty much down to Redd's ability to score and Yi's potential. That's about all they have right now when it comes to the hope for anything great on this team. Maybe Bogut takes a Kaman-esque leap next season or in two years - I'm not ruling that out - but at this point I'm not sure you can pin your team's hopes on that happening.

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

Imagine how much better the Bucks would be if Mo was an elite passer, for example, or Bogut an elite rebounder.

What if we traded those guys for an elite rebounder like Zach Randolph?

[europa]

-= original quote snipped =-

What if we traded those guys for an elite rebounder like Zach Randolph?

What if we made trades that actually brought in the right types of players and not the wrong ones? Crazy thought I realize but I figured it might be worth a shot one of these days.

[Chapter29]

The Bucks are pretty much down to Redd's ability to score and Yi's potential. That's about all they have right now when it comes to the hope for anything great on this team. Maybe Bogut takes a Kaman-esque leap next season or in two years - I'm not ruling that out - but at this point I'm not sure you can pin your team's hopes on that happening.

Yep.

We had Redd as the constant. Bogut, Yi and CV is where all our eggs went after that. Yi we have solid hope for still. Bogut and CV we know where we stand. We got a solid C and good role player out of Bogut. CV is a bench player with variable PT.

We have clearly missed on 1 of the 3, came out above average on another and have high hopes on the 3rd. If he lives up to his potential I like our overall return. 3 young top prospects. 1 all-star, 1 solid starter and a decent bench player. Not too bad if Yi pans out.

We then look at our predetermined role players. Bell, Simmons and Gadz are worthless to this point. Mason is so so and Mo is rock solid. With Harris, poor chemistry, bad luck and a bad decision or 2 has made our group of role players an overall disaster.

To win it all according to 82games you need...

1. A top 5 player or defender.
2. A Top 10 caliber player or Top 10 defender as a sidekick.
3. Make sure one of your players (superstar or sidekick) can defend

I would say that you also need at #4, at least 3 good role players.

So if we look at the Bucks. Lets say that Redd qualifies for #2. Though Redd for T-mac would be more realistic to claim.

It is very unrealistic to think that Yi is going to become a top 5 player, but lets work the angle that 2 top 20 type players plus a defender plus several solid role players = the above formula. Only 5 times can have top 5 player and we are not one of them.

1. Yi (all-star talent)
2. Redd (all-star talent)
3. N/A (top defender)
4. Mo, Bogut, N/A (3 good role players)

So if we feel that Yi and Redd (or a Redd traded asset) can be enough for 1 and 2 we need to add at least a top defender and one more good role player.

For argument sake, what if we moved Redd for Artest?

He hits #1 dead on. He is a very good talent and close enough to a top 5 defender. Rather pair Redd with Artest obviously as we would hit #1 and #2 pretty close and still have Yi's potential to hope for. Could we get Artest for Mo?

[Simulack]

We had Redd as the constant. Bogut, Yi and CV is where all our eggs went after that. Yi we have solid hope for still. Bogut and CV we know where we stand. We got a solid C and good role player out of Bogut. CV is a bench player with variable PT.

We have clearly missed on 1 of the 3, came out above average on another and have high hopes on the 3rd. If he lives up to his potential I like our overall return. 3 young top prospects. 1 all-star, 1 solid starter and a decent bench player. Not too bad if Yi pans out.

Those are pretty terrible returns considering what we have invested in those guys. The last sentence there is the key - all you are really saying is that we have ONE guy who MIGHT pan out and end up being worth something significant relative to what we invested in him.

Its pretty bad when you are evaluating our young talent, looking at best case scenarios and it all hinges on one player becoming an all-star. If you look at the young talent on other teams like Atlanta and play the "what if these guys live up to their potential" game they have A LOT more than one guy to pin their hopes on (especially an international mystery man who could be 24).

When you are looking at a #1 pick, #8 pick (Ford for CV) and a #6 pick and the best you can say is "hey we might get an all-star, a solid starter and a bench player out of this!" you know something has gone terribly wrong.

[jeremyd236]

Every thread, no matter what the subject, ultimately comes down to "Trade Redd". This Mo Williams thread has become no exception.

I think moving Redd is not the answer. Mo Williams is an above average PG as people have stated in this thread, but he is not "the best" or "one of the best" at anything. Redd is one of the best scorers in the NBA.

Everyone else on the Bucks roster is not one of the best at any facet of the game. Redd is the only player who is elite at one thing (scoring).

That's the problem with the team. It is not Redd. I've always said this and I'll say it again, give Redd a teammate who is at good at anything in the game as he is scoring before you trade him. It doesn't have to be anything huge, but how nice would it be to have a rebounder or passer or defender as good at their specialty as Redd is scoring? They don't have to be the best at anything, but just as good as it as Redd can put points on the board.

I think it's unfair to blame the losses on him and trade him until this is done.

[Chapter29]

And it is what it is, but again if Yi pans out it isn't all too bad.

I personally see quite a bit in Yi. At this point in his career he is far better than Bogut was at the same time.

[Newz]

He is better than everyone on our team besides Redd... That's how good he is.

[bentley]

I agree with almost everyone's analysis on this thread. Europa and everyone truly understands this team and its needs. Mo Williams is a fun, exciting player. Great sixth man. Very valuable. Clutch shooter. Very similar skill set to Earl Boykins but taller and better passer. Mo is 6th man on a championship team. He is constantly improving and young but his limitations will always be there. He is a good piece of the puzzle. Much as Bogut and Yi are very good players. And Redd is an elite scorer. Now we need to add Tim Duncan and Chris Paul and we are championship caliber. OK how about Andre Miller and AK47 ? How about Baron Davis and Matt Barnes ? I'll get back to you in a few days. Shortly, some of the Bucks dead wood will be gone--at least that is a start. Then at least there will be some new topics to discuss. There are only so many ways to describe how Charlie Bell has minimal talent and a worse mindset.

[Nowak008]

PP where did you get those stats from? 82games.com has Mo at a PER of 18.7.

Good topic btw. Nothing like a good Mo thread to solve our woes.

I think people don't realize the dearth of good PGs in this league. These are the only impact guys.

Nash
Paul
D. Williams
Kidd
Davis
Billups

After that you have guys in a second tier:
Parker
Mo
Calderon
Tinsley
Miller

Mo is in that second tier. It might mean that it is more of indictment of the number of good PGs today, but imo Mo is a top 10 PG in the league. I'll take Mo's hard work ethic, coachablity, leadership, and clutch play.

Also just because Mo doesn't have great court vision it doesn't make him a dumb player.

[BrewersGM]

I've been on Mo all season. I feel he is getting better game by game. His d is a weak, but that can improve... Otherwise he is getting stronger throughout the season... I just dont know where all this positive is coming from?

[MickeyDavis]

His d is a weak, but that can improve...

He's in his sixth season. Why would would his d improve?

[unklchuk]

"Also just because Mo doesn't have great court vision it doesn't make him a dumb player."

I bring up Mo's court vision quite often. I agree it doesn't make him a dumb player. But if he doesn't See The Whole Court, it means he has a lot less information as he tries to make the right decision.

He's at times passing much more effectively this season. Though I see that as a double-edged sword. More passes, some of them strong attacking passes. But to make them, he's taking more risks, some of them resulting in turnovers. I don't think he has 2 or 3 passes in mind, and chooses the best at the last second. I think he commits to passing to one teammate and if that pass isn't there (as it won't be against better teams) then it's a turnover.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

"Shortly, some of the Bucks dead wood will be gone"

This is speculation, right? We have no confirmation...

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Coach K's public comments on CV changed distinctly in the set up show to the last embarrassing loss. It was all positive. All how much we need CV. How he's making a better effort, and has such offensive talent. And is beginning to come around on defense. How he deserves minutes.

I've been somewhat encouraged by CV lately. But not to that measure. I wondered if they were talking up him for a trade. I wondered if Yi was thought to be hitting a rookie wall, and they were polishing up CV for more minutes. I wondered if coach and player had had some Good Talks and the coach wants to give the player every encouragement - trying to salvage something out of him...

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

1. A top 5 player or defender.
2. A Top 10 caliber player or Top 10 defender as a sidekick.
3. Make sure one of your players (superstar or sidekick) can defend

I would say that you also need at #4, at least 3 good role players.

So if we look at the Bucks.Lets say that Redd qualifies for #2. Though Redd for T-mac would be more realistic to claim.

And let's say Bogut qualifies for #1. All we need then is to let's say that some other guys qualify for #3 and #4!

[europa]

PP where did you get those stats from? 82games.com has Mo at a PER of 18.7.

Good topic btw. Nothing like a good Mo thread to solve our woes.

I think people don't realize the dearth of good PGs in this league. These are the only impact guys.

Nash
Paul
D. Williams
Kidd
Davis
Billups

After that you have guys in a second tier:
Parker
Mo
Calderon
Tinsley
Miller

Tony Parker is not a second-tier PG. He is a first-tier PG and he's better than Mo. He's not just a beneficiary of playing alongside Tim Duncan. He's a damn good player.

[Nowak008]

-= original quote snipped =-



Tony Parker is not a second-tier PG. He is a first-tier PG and he's better than Mo. He's not just a beneficiary of playing alongside Tim Duncan. He's a damn good player.

I have him above Mo, but there is no way he is an impact player. Besides nitpicking that... do you dispute that he is a top 10 PG?

[Debit One]

-= original quote snipped =-



I have him above Mo, but there is no way he is an impact player. Besides nitpicking that... do you dispute that he is a top 10 PG?

Here's a quick list of nine PGs who I think are clearly above Mo.

Paul
Nash
Kidd
Billups
D. Williams
Arenas
Parker
Hinrich
Davis

Then there's a group that I think are arguable in terms of how you rank them:

Felton
Ford
Calderon
Tinsley
Bibby
Harris
Williams

If you put Mo at the top of that group then he's #10. If you put him at the bottom he's #16. Each of that group of seven has strengths and weaknesses, so you will end up ranking them depending upon personal preferences. I happen to want to see defense and running an efficient offense out of PGs, so I'm pretty hard on Mo.