Bucks-Bobcats Postgame Thread 1/6/2007

[Newz]

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Yeah, I still don't think one can assume Redd couldn't refer to a better player IF a better player was actually brought into Milwaukee. But right now, Redd is the best player, and he knows it. But he's not good enough to be the best player on a team that can go deep into the playoffs. And the main issue is Redd is the only piece we have that could bring in a top tier player. Now if we would want to keep Redd somehow has our 2nd player, we need to somehow dump contracts like Gadz and Simmons, or trade Mo.

Exactly, it's going to be tough to get another player as good or better than Redd in here with the Simmons, Mason, Bell, Gadzuric contracts on the books.

I would still be up for moving Bogut, Yi, CV and our 1st pick (Obviously not all of them, a combination of them along with other contracts) to try and get another player for Redd to pair with and see how it works and then try to fill in the role players around Redd and the other star.

That's just how I would like to do it... Rather than trading Redd.

[Newz]

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One small example that redd won't be able to do that here.

I was at the game at home against the bobcats.

Yi is absolutely dominating, hitting every shot he takes, however in the second half redd starts launching tough shot after tough shot. Luckily that night those tough shots were falling, and as we all know he had a chance to get Yi the ball for his 30th point but just held onto it to get those free throws he wanted.

Yi also could have scored alot more in that game, but unlike redd he just take smart shots and doesn't mind passing up shots to continue moving the ball so someone else can get an easier look.

... Yi had like 29 points that game, didn't he?

So Redd should pass the ball to a inferior free throw shooter to make the free throws? That would seem a little selfish on Yi's part, wouldn't it?

[showtimesam]

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... Yi had like 29 points that game, didn't he?

So Redd should pass the ball to a inferior free throw shooter to make the free throws? That would seem a little selfish on Yi's part, wouldn't it?

Idk, while bell is no saint, even he yelled out for redd that Yi should get the ball.
I saw redd just reply "I didn't know", even though the entire bradley center was chanting Yi.

[xTitan]

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Exactly, it's going to be tough to get another player as good or better than Redd in here with the Simmons, Mason, Bell, Gadzuric contracts on the books.

I would still be up for moving Bogut, Yi, CV and our 1st pick (Obviously not all of them, a combination of them along with other contracts) to try and get another player for Redd to pair with and see how it works and then try to fill in the role players around Redd and the other star.

That's just how I would like to do it... Rather than trading Redd.

The Paul Pierce example was a good one......and though your way of rebuilding/retooling is an option I would be in the group that would keep Yi and bogut and everyone else is for sale.....truth is they will probably keep yi, Bogut, Redd, and Williams and look to move everyone else, at least until the end of this year.

[Newz]

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Idk, while bell is no saint, even he yelled out for redd that Yi should get the ball.
I saw redd just reply "I didn't know", even though the entire bradley center was chanting Yi.

So it is okay to want Yi to get big numbers... But if Redd gets big numbers then it isn't okay?

The double standards applied around here are ridiculous.

[BuckFan25226]

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Idk, while bell is no saint, even he yelled out for redd that Yi should get the ball.
I saw redd just reply "I didn't know", even though the entire bradley center was chanting Yi.

That's the thing, nobody can be for sure that Redd had any clue of what was going on.

[showtimesam]

No, its just that Yi was finally having his time to shine for one game, but redd really seemed aggitated by the fans cheering for Yi, and seemed to be on a mission in the 2nd half to outscore him.

If redd was feeling it you could imagine bogut and Yi would do everything in their power to help redd get as many good looks as he good.

Once again, its about the lack of a team concept that the bucks have.

[Newz]

No, its just that Yi was finally having his time to shine for one game, but redd really seemed aggitated by the fans cheering for Yi, and seemed to be on a mission in the 2nd half to outscore him.

If redd was feeling it you could imagine bogut and Yi would do everything in their power to help redd get as many good looks as he good.

Once again, its about the lack of a team concept that the bucks have.

Yi did shine... He got 29 points which was a career high. He played a great game, just because he didn't score 30 points doesn't mean he didn't play extremely well.

It sounds like the posters on this board are a lot more obsessed with numbers than Redd.

[xTitan]

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Yi did shine... He got 29 points which was a career high. He played a great game, just because he didn't score 30 points doesn't mean he didn't play extremely well.

It sounds like the posters on this board are a lot more obsessed with numbers than Redd.

you sure you don't want to rethink that statement?

[jerrod]

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So it is okay to want Yi to get big numbers... But if Redd gets big numbers then it isn't okay?

The double standards applied around here are ridiculous.

i agree with this, redd is the best ft shooter on the team, if you're truly only worred about the best chance to win isn't that who you'd want at the line?

regardless of stats

[EastSideBucksFan]

No, its just that Yi was finally having his time to shine for one game, but redd really seemed aggitated by the fans cheering for Yi, and seemed to be on a mission in the 2nd half to outscore him.

If redd was feeling it you could imagine bogut and Yi would do everything in their power to help redd get as many good looks as he good.

Once again, its about the lack of a team concept that the bucks have.

Redd gets the ball late in the games b/c it's been this way for 5 years.

He's the best free throw shooter in our team and has the best handle, he's made plenty of game winning shots, etc, etc.

Why should he give it up for a rookie that has already lost a game for us on a last second shot?


Some people who like to hate on Redd here are really, really reaching here.

You act like it's all a conspiracy and "Redd hates Yi" and "Redd is a point monger" blah blah blah

[rilamann]

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Learn to read yourself. Clearly you have missed the points others have been making in several posts. It's not about Bogut becoming an All Star, its about playing team winning basketball. Something Redd has struggled to come to grips with.

Good post Icat you hit the nail on the head and that is exactly what some of us like Xtitan and I and a few others like yourself have been saying.

But you say anything positve about Bogut and the bias Bogut haters run with it and make out like your trying to say Bogut is a dominate player.

No one is saying Bogut is this 25/12 guy thats is being held back by our backcourt,which seems is what the Bogut haters assume when you support Bogut around here.

All im saying and I don't want to speak for anyone else but I think its safe to say Xtitan and the few others who support Bogut are also saying is that if Bogut was used more and used properly on a consistient bases the Bucks as a team would be better for it.And thus the Bucks would win more games or at least be in a postition to win more games and play higher % basketball and play more team style basketball.

Agian,no one is saying Bogut is Tim Duncan or a dominate player.For the record if I think Bogut if used properly on regular bases we would see something like 16/12/4/1.5 from him.

The bottomline is like I always say ''when Bogut touches the ball good things happen''.

That has been proven time after time and it was proven once agian last vs the Bobcats.

The problem is Bogut doesnt touch the ball enough,part of that is on Bogut and part of that is on the team.

I think if the Bucks made more of a comitment to use him properly and made more of a comitment to play team basketball every night Bogut would make more of a comitment to be more agressive.

Bogut is a frustrated player and why is he frustrated? Becuase he is the odd man out,and why is he the odd man out?

Because hes one of the few guys on the roster who wants to win and who plays to win but he is surrounded by a bunch of guys whos attitude is ''we lost but I got mine''.

[Sigra]

Bogut's army is on feet after last night game. I read last few pages and as a former high officer of that same army I have to say that I agree with BuckFan25226 and his side. Bogut's offense doesn't deserve more touches and when Redd and Mo are healthy they should shoot most. Bogut can score against small centers or in pick and role situations. That's it.

Now, about developing his offense for future, I was big fan of that idea but there is a time when unbiased man who watch all Bucks games have to admit that Bogut just doesn't have it. Mentaly he just doesn't have it and considering that I love to predict future I predict that he will never have it. Just my feeling regarding his attitude and head.

This is his 3rd year and he still has only that hook shoot.

[El Duderino]

But you say anything positve about Bogut and the bias Bogut haters run with it and make out like your trying to say Bogut is a dominate player.

Why is it you label anyone who doesn't kneel at the alter of Andrew as a Bogut "hater"?

For the record if I think Bogut if used properly on regular bases we would see something like 16/12/4/1.5 from him.

Bogut could already average 16 ppg if he just didn't shoot free throws like Dan Gadzuric and had a jumper better than Dan. Those two huge shortcomings in his offensive game are holding back his ability to score more than anything else is. As for him averaging 12 boards per game, i'd love to see it one day and i really thought he'd be a great rebounder, but so far at least, he's quite mediocre in that regard even though we don't have a good rebounder at PF. I could see Andrew averaging 10-10.5 boards some year, but 12 strikes me as unlikely unless Bogut starts attacking the glass like the top rebounders do.

Because hes one of the few guys on the roster who wants to win and who plays to win

I don't buy it. I've watched the NBA a long time and have seen my share of absolutely fierce competitors who despised losing with a passion and would rather cut a finger off with a pair of garden shears than let their man make them look bad, i don't see that from Bogut or anyone on this team. Nobody on this team is above quitting during a game or not caring if their man pretty much punks them, it's sad to watch as a Bucks fan. It's been awhile since this team had a starter that was a key cog and who was an extremely fierce competitor that could rub off on the rest of the team.

[icat2000]

Only Army you were in is the Army of the Flip Flops Sigra.

[Sigra]

Only Army you were in is the Army of the Flip Flops Sigra.

I call it like I see it. I was big fan of Bogut because of his connection with Kukoc and his unselfish play. I hoped that his offense will came. I don't have that hope anymore. He is still good C who can play good defense and be role player at offense. But if he wants something more than he is not realistic and neather are fans who agree with him.

Yi is rookie and we can't expect much from him this year.

Right now our best offansive players are Redd and Mo and they should shoot most if we want to win. We saw last year that approuch working. This year coach reduced their offansive roles and our offense is not nearly good.

But don't take me wrong. Defense and inteligence of Mo-Redd backcourt is big problem and breaking that duo IS priority #1. Just don't fool yourself that Bogut will ever have more than 14 or 15 PPG.

PS: I was also in Bosnian army but that is not important for this discusion

[schweig]

Bogut's army is on feet after last night game. I read last few pages and as a former high officer of that same army I have to say that I agree with BuckFan25226 and his side. Bogut's offense doesn't deserve more touches and when Redd and Mo are healthy they should shoot most. Bogut can score against small centers or in pick and role situations. That's it.

Now, about developing his offense for future, I was big fan of that idea but there is a time when unbiased man who watch all Bucks games have to admit that Bogut just doesn't have it. Mentaly he just doesn't have it and considering that I love to predict future I predict that he will never have it. Just my feeling regarding his attitude and head.

This is his 3rd year and he still has only that hook shoot.

I pretty much agree. But since Mo can be a little streakier, maybe there's room for Bogut to get more in those games where Mo's not hitting everything right away. Then Andrew probably wouldn't mind seeing the ball a little less on those other nights when Mo's really lighting it up. But often Mo takes 8-10 shots just to decide whether he's on or not, or to try to get himself going (Edit: while no one else but Michael really has that luxury). However small the improvement is, Mo and Redd do seem to look around at least a little bit more. Hopefully it's just the start.

[Newz]

I'm wondering how using Bogut properly will lead to him getting around 4 more rebounds per game? This of course in response to saying he could average 16/12/4/1.5

I can understand if you think 'using him properly' will increase points and assists since he is getting more touches... Though more shots would usually lead to a lower FG%. I don't agree, but I understand your train of thought there.

I just don't understand how using him properly is going to make him an elite level rebounder...

I think Bogut still has a chance to be a 15/10/3 with 1 to 1.5 blocks per game... Which I'm fine with, just like I'm fine with the production he has given us this year. I just wish people would stop saying he is some sort of star and just accept he is a solid player, nothing special.

[jerrod]

Because hes one of the few guys on the roster who wants to win and who plays to win

this is the same bogut whose effort issues we've been discussing for the last 3 years?

yeah, he plays hard and wants to win, except for when he doesn't



almost alll players do that, don't try to make bogut out to be some infallible god like player.

[El Duderino]

But don't take me wrong. Defense and inteligence of Mo-Redd backcourt is big problem and breaking that duo IS priority #1. Just don't fool yourself that Bogut will ever have more than 14 or 15 PPG.

I agree the Mo/Redd combo needs a divorce at some point for this team to move forward.

As for Andrew ever averaging more than 14-15 a game, i wouldn't say it never could happen. While i don't buy into all the excuses many here make for Bogut's shortcomings offensively, i do think he MIGHT one day be a better scorer. It won't come though from Bogut just getting more touches like many want to believe, it will come when or if Andrew ever develops a decent midrange jumper and/or a post up jumper like almost all the scoring bigs have, making free throws also being a no brainer. Teams dare Andrew to shoot 10-12-15 foot wide open shots and he passes on taking them because he can't shoot at all, it's a massive flaw in his skill set. Same with shorter turn around/post up jumpers, that's a staple move that most scoring bigs have, sadly Bogut lacks this also.

In college he had touch on these shots, so he's not like Gadzuric in that there can be zero hope that Andrew ever develops either one or stays a horrific free throw shooter. With that said, as each year goes by with Bogut showing no improvement at these vital aspects of being a successful scoring big man, my hopes they will develop shrink greatly.