PG Utah: Great Third Quarter!

[Wooderson]

rebounding is a huge part of defense.

You keep saying this and it doesn't get any truer. Is it a part, sure, but calling it a "huge part of defense" is absolutely fictional. The leading rebounder in the entire league right now is a terrible overall defender. Andre Drummond has come back and proven he's still maybe the best rebounder in the league after being benched for years for being a terrible defender. Julius Randle, Nikola Vucevic, Christian Wood, go back to guys like Enes Kanter, Kenneth Faried, Montrezl Harrell, David Lee, the list goes on and on. You can be absolutely great at rebounding the ball and not have any positive defensive impact.

I've never been with or heard of a coach who didn't emphasize that defensive rebounding is the final part of playing defense. It was something Bud said over and over and is why he put it near the top of his list of principles.

Look, I know you don't value Portis, but denying the role rebounding plays in being a good defense just to refute the value of Portis, is rewriting every defensive principle I've ever heard or seen.

Make your case that Portis is horrible in one on one defense (I don't agree), but coming up with a wacky idea that defensive rebounding isn't the last and critical part of playing defense is an idea that few share.

And by the way, as bad as the Bucks defense has been this season, one reason, among many, that their record is decent, is that they are doing a good job on the defensive boards when the opposition misses.

Bucks are 18th is defensive rebounding % - that ain't good.

[randy84]

1:25 Brook getting pissed at AJax for not switching onto the shooter.
2:40 Bucks defense second only to Pistons in giving up 110 point games.

Watch on YouTube

[BigO]

You keep saying this and it doesn't get any truer. Is it a part, sure, but calling it a "huge part of defense" is absolutely fictional. The leading rebounder in the entire league right now is a terrible overall defender. Andre Drummond has come back and proven he's still maybe the best rebounder in the league after being benched for years for being a terrible defender. Julius Randle, Nikola Vucevic, Christian Wood, go back to guys like Enes Kanter, Kenneth Faried, Montrezl Harrell, David Lee, the list goes on and on. You can be absolutely great at rebounding the ball and not have any positive defensive impact.

I've never been with or heard of a coach who didn't emphasize that defensive rebounding is the final part of playing defense. It was something Bud said over and over and is why he put it near the top of his list of principles.

Look, I know you don't value Portis, but denying the role rebounding plays in being a good defense just to refute the value of Portis, is rewriting every defensive principle I've ever heard or seen.

Make your case that Portis is horrible in one on one defense (I don't agree), but coming up with a wacky idea that defensive rebounding isn't the last and critical part of playing defense is an idea that few share.

And by the way, as bad as the Bucks defense has been this season, one reason, among many, that their record is decent, is that they are doing a good job on the defensive boards when the opposition misses.

Bucks are 18th is defensive rebounding % - that ain't good.

Not good, but they are fourth in average defensive rebounds per game. Usually the two correlate fairly closely, as these charts show:

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/defensive-rebounding?Season=2023-24&dir=D&sort=DREB

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/defensive-rebounding?Season=2023-24&dir=D&sort=DREB

[Wooderson]

I've never been with or heard of a coach who didn't emphasize that defensive rebounding is the final part of playing defense. It was something Bud said over and over and is why he put it near the top of his list of principles.

Look, I know you don't value Portis, but denying the role rebounding plays in being a good defense just to refute the value of Portis, is rewriting every defensive principle I've ever heard or seen.

Make your case that Portis is horrible in one on one defense (I don't agree), but coming up with a wacky idea that defensive rebounding isn't the last and critical part of playing defense is an idea that few share.

And by the way, as bad as the Bucks defense has been this season, one reason, among many, that their record is decent, is that they are doing a good job on the defensive boards when the opposition misses.

Bucks are 18th is defensive rebounding % - that ain't good.

Not good, but they are fourth in average defensive rebounds per game. Usually the two correlate fairly closely, as these charts show:

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/defensive-rebounding?Season=2023-24&dir=D&sort=DREB

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/defensive-rebounding?Season=2023-24&dir=D&sort=DREB

The Bucks play at the 4th fastest pace in the league, there are more available rebounds in total because of that. What matters is the rate at which you grab boards, not the raw numbers. Being in the bottom half of D-rebounding when the Bucks are a poor defensive team to begin with makes it even worse.

[mediocrityrules]

So is Jae Crowder back in a week? Last I heard, the 17th was the target date for a return.

[-Jragon-]

In order

1. Fire AG
2. HIRE Bud
3. Trade KM + ? for 2 faster, capable 3 and D efficient wing starters
4. Get PJ Tucker for the culture
5. Get Stotts back
6. All offense is either drive and kick by Dame or inside out by Giannis
7. Front court is fine -- play Jae or PJ at PF if we need small ball with Giannis/Portis at C against certain teams
8. Bucks in 6
9. Banners and Parades

[MickeyDavis]

So is Jae Crowder back in a week? Last I heard, the 17th was the target date for a return.

He's started 5 on 5, with the Bucks and Herd. So next week is possible. Not many minutes to start.

[Sigra]

Guys if we dont get a coach that already has rings then he still won't have enough power to tell KM to defer ball handling to Dame which should be our offense when he's in the game.. one of the top PG of all time is on our team and we have to watch KM get trapped. When KM was injured it wasn't a problem and Dame Time was a thing..

Ding, ding, ding

You have something here. When Middleton was on minute restriction Dame looked much better.

So now we have 2 huge problems.
1. Defense that make no sense
2. Chemistry at offense with Dame

[nagawicka]

The big problem is not that team has given up on Grief. This is a good thing, not a problem. The big problem is that team has given up on Giannis. I think that many players are questioning his leadership. He called them out yesterday saying we have no pride. And what is the outcome/result? They played even more "prideless" losing again.

The team mates of all people know superstars aren't there to singlehandedly haul the whole franchise superstructure over the top to another title. Even that 64pt game resulted b/c Giannis was in the flow, assisting and being assisted and not blowing all his energy running into a wall. Saying 'we all must do better & work harder' is meaningless if all pride means is generating more jet fuel for Giannis' existing role. To Giannis' great credit, he seems to be passing/assisting/receiving assists more, but looks random not set plays. Jrue waived everyone off guarding Butler possible i think b/c he'd had enough of what was going on around him.

[nagawicka]

Do everyone a favor. If you want to call people bat **** crazy, have some humility and do your homework.

Bobby Portis the last two seasons (prior to this one) averaged between 9 and 10 rebounds per game. In many more minutes, Lopez averaged much less (he didn't play two years ago but averaged less than 7 last year).

This year Brook is averaging 5.1 rebounds per game, while bobby is averaging 6.6, despite Griffin having him play way out on the court. There's no contest in who is the better rebounder. And Brook is shooting 47% and Portis 50%. The false narratives on Portis continue, but not everyone is fooled.

Bobby, Bobby, Bobby. For a big man he is not good enough for a defender.

Hes not good at defending bigs in the paint but hes surprisingly not bad on the perimeter.

Bobby nabbed a few steals the first few times he challenged a guard out beyond the 3pt line

[nagawicka]

Well thanks for clearing up that up so convincingly for us. I guess there will never be a good time to fire Griffin lest we make a "kneejerk" decision.

I'll be happy to rerun the diagnostics after you give me an example of an NBA coach who was fired midseason with a winning record.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_Cleveland_Cavaliers_season

So, 1 (one).

[nagawicka]

Well thanks for clearing up that up so convincingly for us. I guess there will never be a good time to fire Griffin lest we make a "kneejerk" decision.

I'll be happy to rerun the diagnostics after you give me an example of an NBA coach who was fired midseason with a winning record.

You have to try something. The only other thing is turnover the roster which I feel is alot harder to do. I really don't want to totally blame it all on Griff, but when you continue to jam round pegs into square holes you start to look foolish.

Somebody put Griffin and every other candidate through a vetting process. Somebody like maybe Horst, Edens--it wasn't Giannis, it was the FO. So either they saw something different than we see now, and are working behind the scenes on more roster moves (and improved scheme/coaching) OR they did a more-or-less horrendous job of finding out what Griff had in mind and evaluating how that would work out. And/or they're riding with a Giannis-preferred pick to mollify him, get the extension done, and then show G he's no personnel guru or GM: AG guides an ugly transition, Horst finds out if G can be reformed enough to work effectively with Dame, and Horst has pieces to work with at seasons' end. I guess we can't tank w/ our record, but if it means finding out G's trade value along the way I guess the rest of the NBA will too. Not advocating a trade at all, but the Bucks will for sure know what's really possible through just addition and peripheral trades.

[nagawicka]

I've asked this before with no real answer. The Bucks team is essentially the same (plus KM is playing) with the one change of Lillard for Jrue. Is that one personnel change the biggest reason for the defensive sieve we see? I don't think so.

I was about to post 'NO, but . .' but it's absolutely a major change basically from all D to no D. The No Part where I agree other factors are at work: it feels like Jrue waved off Giannis and other Bucks from guarding Jimmy Butler possibly because he'd had enough of what was going on around him and felt forced to do it himself. I don't think it was ego, he just felt it was their only option and for whatever reason the bucks didn't come together to get it done while that was happening. A theory as good as many here.

[nagawicka]

I've asked this before with no real answer. The Bucks team is essentially the same (plus KM is playing) with the one change of Lillard for Jrue. Is that one personnel change the biggest reason for the defensive sieve we see? I don't think so.

I think blame is 50% on Griff, 30% on Dame, but the NBA is so competitive small differences add up. BroLo does look a slight step slower. Dude is massive and almost 36...they tend to decline at that age. Cam instead of JC makes a little difference as well. Add in 15 minutes of Wes a game instead of Beas, etc.

What, not enough responsibility to spread some around to Horst and the Front Office? Bringing in Dame is fine--as long as you account for the risk of bringing in a huge superstar who's handled the ball and scored massively his entire career but never played with a one-man show habitually trying to do it on his own. Aside from assuming chemistry magically appears w/o time & work, any 2 superstars don't magically sync up just b/c some NBA franchise goes grocery shopping. 'Now Giannis will have to play ball--it's Dame!' To his credit, looks like Giannis is playing with greater ball movement, so kudos to him.

[MiltownHawkeye]

I'll be happy to rerun the diagnostics after you give me an example of an NBA coach who was fired midseason with a winning record.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_Cleveland_Cavaliers_season

So, 1 (one).

Make sure to put those goalposts back where you found them

[pifhluk23]

1:25 Brook getting pissed at AJax for not switching onto the shooter.
2:40 Bucks defense second only to Pistons in giving up 110 point games.

Watch on YouTube

How are we 3rd worst in contested 3s when Grief has everyone on the perimeter. This has to be one of the worst coaching jobs in history.

[sidney lanier]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_Cleveland_Cavaliers_season

So, 1 (one).

Make sure to put those goalposts back where you found them

The NBA formed in 1949, with a lot of teams and a lot of seasons since then. Not sure I'd be spiking the ball in that end zone where, fun fact, the goal posts used to be on the goal line. Before they moved them.

[nagawicka]

Whether or not he’s right or wrong, Dame being disengaged (and I do think it’s for personal and on court things) is reason enough to fire Grief.

Like it or not we traded for a star and our best chance of winning is if that star is playing for a coach, who at minimum, isn’t setting him up to fail.

Buck's Front Office has been reliably and proactively seeing that Giannis is satisfied enough to stay in Milwaukee, according to many realGM posters. BIG IF TRUE because that'd mean Horst & Co will also go to great lengths to proactively see that Dame Lillard's needs are met and concerns addressed. Because Dame hasn't had a home where he's heard and his team's title chances met, etc-- If Milwaukee provides that Dame'll be relieved he's finally got a reasonable FO and recognize MKE's providing a real home. If we don't respond, and just say 'uh, giannis doesn't play w/point guards..' and just default to doing nothing--that'd be an insult. Unnecessary & on multiple levels. Not received as an insult: landing a one-of-kind superstar guard and then setting him up to fail? refusing to use him properly? letting his final year(s) die on the vine because you can't instruct G to play less singlehandedly? That's an insult to the whole NBA, Naismith's ghost, and Don Nelson's fish ties.

[randy84]

So, 1 (one).

Make sure to put those goalposts back where you found them

The NBA formed in 1949, with a lot of teams and a lot of seasons since then. Not sure I'd be spiking the ball in that end zone where, fun fact, the goal posts used to be on the goal line. Before they moved them.

Wasn’t Don Nelson’s whole career getting fired mid season as a winning coach?

[MickeyDavis]

Make sure to put those goalposts back where you found them

The NBA formed in 1949, with a lot of teams and a lot of seasons since then. Not sure I'd be spiking the ball in that end zone where, fun fact, the goal posts used to be on the goal line. Before they moved them.

Wasn’t Don Nelson’s whole career getting fired mid season as a winning coach?

Happened once. Knicks. But he had been coaching 18 years at that point.