Bucks-Bobcats Postgame Thread 1/6/2007

[paul]

[quote="LukePliska"][/quote]

Yeah trust me i'm staying out of this argument as there's gonna be no winner here, but damn there's been some insults flying around this thread.

It's nice to occasionally, just occasionally, remember that we all support the same team and hopefully have the same goal in mind.

[icat2000]

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But apparently people want to throw the blame on our two best players (Mo and Redd) for no apparent reason.

Get off the grass!!!!

There has been very well documented reasons on this board why people are not happy with the current make up of the backcourt.

So please to not dismiss this as people wanting to blame our backcourt for no apparent reason when you are fully aware (unless you can't read) that this is NOT the case.

[BuckFan25226]

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Its a fact though,if guards arent getting up on shooters and allowing them to shoot a high % there are going to be less avalible rebounds.

And if your guards are giving up penetration your bigs will have to help defnese which takes them out of good postition to rebound.

Baksetball is a team game and everyone has to do their job for the team to be succcessful.

I know it sounds like its making excuses for Bogut but its a fact,the team is horrible on D and there just isnt many rebounds to grab.Bogut actually does a good job boxing out a grabing rebounds when they are there to be had.
.

I agree Mo's defense has been inconsistent, it's been better, but still too inconsistent. I do feel Redd's defense has improved. Unfortunately he hasn't been able to shake the bad defender rap. I don't believe he's a bad defender at all, he's average.

But equate to Bogut's rebounding, and trying to say he would average at least 2 more, and then 2 more based on attitude is a major reach.

[Newz]

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Get off the grass!!!!

There has been very well documented reasons on this board why people are not happy with the current make up of the backcourt.

So please to not dismiss this as people wanting to blame our backcourt for no apparent reason when you are fully aware (unless you can't read) that this is NOT the case.

And I disagree with those people, don't I?

Like I said... There is no reason to blame our back court or Bogut for that matter when the rest of our players are:

Yi, CV, Simmons, Bell, Mason, Voshkuhl, Ruffin, Ivey, Storey, Noel, Sessions... None of those guys are average and some of them (Simmons, Gadzuric) have contracts that rank among the worst in the NBA. I believe those guys are our problem, not the 3 guys on our team who are actually productive.

[rilamann]

[quote="LukePliska"][/quote]


Mo's problem isnt his fault,he's being played out of postition.He doesnt have the skills or the basketball IQ to play PG full time on a winning team.He is also a bad defender.Mo does have qualities that would be an asset on a winning team though,the biggest quality obviously being his ability to score.

Redd's problem other than the fact he seems like he could carless about winning based on his attitude and body language is the fact he takes bad selfish shots over the coure of the game.

If Redd takes too many tough shots,if Redd took higher % shots over the course of the game or passed on a low % shot for higher % shot for a teammate Redd would be considered a much better player in my opinion.

Redd has the ability to make tough shots but someone needs to tell him he can't be taking tough shots over the course of the game.Maybe in the 4th qtr when you need someone to make a tough shot then Redd has the green light to be the one to take the tough shot.Point is he can't take tough shots over the course of 48 minutes which is what he does.

[paul]

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I'm glad you would try and beat me up over a disagreement about the Bucks.

Go back pages. I've already said what you just said. It's sad, we finally get a road win, and this turns into a Bogut thread. It is what it is though. I don't have beef with Rilamann or anything, he's cool. We just disagree on this topic, why we continue to debate it? Who knows, because it's fun?

I think it would have been xtitan coming off the top rope, not me

[Newz]

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Mo's problem isnt his fault,he's being played out of postition.He doesnt have the skills or the basketball IQ to play PG full time on a winning team.He is also a bad defender.Mo does have qualities that would be an asset on a winning team though,the biggest quality obviously being his ability to score.

Redd's problem other than the fact he seems like he could carless about winning based on his attitude and body language is the fact he takes bad selfish shots over the coure of the game.

If Redd takes too many tough shots,if Redd took higher % shots over the course of the game or passed on a low % shot for higher % shot for a teammate Redd would be considered a much better player in my opinion.

Redd has the ability to make tough shots but someone needs to tell him he can't be taking tough shots over the course of the game.Maybe in the 4th qtr when you need someone to make a tough shot then Redd has the green light to be the one to take the tough shot.Point is he can't take tough shots over the course of 48 minutes which is what he does.

Yeah, Mo can't lead a team with Redd, Bogut and then a bunch of scrubs to a winning record. I guess that means he can't lead a winning team. 16/7/4 on 48% shooting makes your argument pretty hard... Especially when he is trying to rack up assists passing to guys like Bobby Simmons (40%), CV(43%) and Charlie Bell (30%)... Get some finishers and other players on this team and that number will increase as well.

And yeah... Redd could care less about winning. I mean, his scoring average has decreased for the first time in several years, but that's all he cares about is getting this own points.... That explains the decrease in point production.

[BuckFan25226]

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I think it would have been xtitan coming off the top rope, not me

Haha, nahh, he's always is like that towards me, nothing I'm not used to.

[rilamann]

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I agree Mo's defense has been inconsistent, it's been better, but still too inconsistent. I do feel Redd's defense has improved. Unfortunately he hasn't been able to shake the bad defender rap. I don't believe he's a bad defender at all, he's average.

But equate to Bogut's rebounding, and trying to say he would average at least 2 more, and then 2 more based on attitude is a major reach.

Thats the frustrating thing,Both Mo & Redd have showed that when they realy want to they can play good defense.They just don't 90% of the time.

I just feel that if the Bucks had a starting backcourt that could play solid defense every night and if Bogut improved his attitude Bogut would be capable of grabbing 1 more rebound each qtr which would give him the avg of 12 per game.

Also I forgot to mention an obvious factor that when you have a backcourt that plays bad defense it hurts your bigs from the standpoint they pick up cheap fouls on help defense due to the guards giving up penetration.

Thats true for any basketball team at any level,so lets not chalk it up to me ''blaming everyone but Bogut''.

[rilamann]

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Yeah, Mo can't lead a team with Redd, Bogut and then a bunch of scrubs to a winning record. I guess that means he can't lead a winning team. 16/7/4 on 48% shooting makes your argument pretty hard... Especially when he is trying to rack up assists passing to guys like Bobby Simmons (40%), CV(43%) and Charlie Bell (30%)... Get some finishers and other players on this team and that number will increase as well.

And yeah... Redd could care less about winning. I mean, his scoring average has decreased for the first time in several years, but that's all he cares about is getting this own points.... That explains the decrease in point production.

If Mo wants to get more assists maybe he should pass more to Bogut then (50%).

I think your problem is you pay to much attention to numbers (hey you have something in common with Redd cool),don't get me wrong numbers are big and they are important but they don't always tell you the whole story.

Like when you shoot down the idea that Redd doesnt having winning as his #1 priority because his scoring has decreased which is true but in response to that I would have to ask.

Have you actually watched the Bucks this season? Or have you just been looking at box scores?

[Newz]

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If Mo wants to get more assists maybe he should pass more to Bogut then (50%).

I think your problem is you pay to much attention to numbers (hey you have something in common with Redd cool),don't get me wrong numbers are big and they are important but they don't always tell you the whole story.

Like when you shoot down the idea that Redd doesnt having winning as his #1 priority because his scoring has decreased which is true but in response to that I would have to ask.

Have you actually watched the Bucks this season? Or have you just been looking at box scores?

I watch every Bucks game twice, actually.

I see Mo Williams has improved dramatically again this year and has played the PG position much better than he ever has. Right now Mo is close to being a top 10 starting PG in the NBA and would be the best 6th man in the league if he was in the role.

I thought Redd earlier in the season was playing at a near MVP level while the rest of his team was contributing. Then when their production started to slide a bit Redd tried to take over too much and it has hurt his game. Overall though he has improved a lot when it comes to sharing the basketball and taking better shots. I think Redd's trying to take over down the stretch at times is very annoying and I think some of it is his fault... But I also blame a lot of that on coaching.

I think Bogut has improved dramatically defensively and is one of the last players we have to worry about. He is certainly a solid NBA player.

Yi isn't a good or even average NBA starter yet, but he has a lot of potential and is also one of the last guys we should worry about.

The rest of our team? The "problem", the guys who get paid a lot of money yet produce nothing. The guys who comprise the worst bench in the NBA and hold some of the most awful contracts in the entire league... Yeah, have you watched the games? Have you seen our REAL problem? It has nothing to do with Bogut, Redd or Mo... It has everything to do with the guys surrounding them.

[blkout]

would be the best 6th man in the league if he was in the role.

Jason Terry? Ginobili etc.

The rest of our team? The "problem", the guys who get paid a lot of money yet produce nothing. The guys who comprise the worst bench in the NBA and hold some of the most awful contracts in the entire league

Agree completely. The bench is horrific, I bet a d-league all star team would be a vast improvement.

[Newz]

Jason Terry? Ginobili etc.

I think Mo is a far superior player to Jason Terry...

He obviously isn't on Ginobili's level. But I think Mo could be just as valuable off of the bench considering he can give you production at both guard positions... Not to mention I think he could come very close to equaling Ginobili's production statistically, but just not having the same impact on the game as Manu does.

So, yeah, I guess the second best 6th man... I always forget about Ginobili because I just consider him a starter.

[rilamann]

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I watch every Bucks game twice, actually.

I see Mo Williams has improved dramatically again this year and has played the PG position much better than he ever has. Right now Mo is close to being a top 10 starting PG in the NBA and would be the best 6th man in the league if he was in the role.

I thought Redd earlier in the season was playing at a near MVP level while the rest of his team was contributing. Then when their production started to slide a bit Redd tried to take over too much and it has hurt his game. Overall though he has improved a lot when it comes to sharing the basketball and taking better shots. I think Redd's trying to take over down the stretch at times is very annoying and I think some of it is his fault... But I also blame a lot of that on coaching.

I think Bogut has improved dramatically defensively and is one of the last players we have to worry about. He is certainly a solid NBA player.

Yi isn't a good or even average NBA starter yet, but he has a lot of potential and is also one of the last guys we should worry about.

The rest of our team? The "problem", the guys who get paid a lot of money yet produce nothing. The guys who comprise the worst bench in the NBA and hold some of the most awful contracts in the entire league... Yeah, have you watched the games? Have you seen our REAL problem? It has nothing to do with Bogut, Redd or Mo... It has everything to do with the guys surrounding them.

I agree our biggest problem is the bench,Bell,Simmons,CV all suck for lack of a better word.That has indeed been our biggest problem.

I also agree that if Mo was the 6th man he would not only win the 6th man award he would probably run away with the award for the next 5 years.

Im still not comfortable with him as the starting PG,he shows flashes but he doesnt create high % offense for his teammates consisitiently enough and he doesnt play good enough defense to be floor more than 25 minutes a game.

I still belvie that any NBA team that has Mo Williams as its starting PG will likely never be more than mediocre at best unless its a team where Mo fits realy well,the Mavs would be a great example because they dont need a PG to create easy shots as much due to having so many guys who can create their own shot.

Yi gets a pass of course because hes a rookie,hes going to look great some games and then bad some games we all knew that going into to the season.Yi will be the best player on the team by a wide margin in 3 years,in my opinion.

My problem with Redd is the simple fact he has become selfish,maybe the numbers say otherwise but watching the games it has been a different story.Every game Redd takes tough/bad shots at the expense his teammates and at the expense of a higher % shots and I think it has not only hurt the team from a win-loss standpoint but also from a team chemistry standpoint.

Redd is a good guy and im not saying hes a bad player but I think at this point in time it would be best for both Redd and for the Bucks if he is moved.

[El Duderino]

Thats not true maybe I generalized but i'll clear that up.I don't refer to anyone who isnt a Bogut a fan or supporter a hater just the people who arent objective and knock the guy at every oppritunity.And the ones who like to exaggerate when you say something positive about Bogut,for example.

Well, you throw the "Bogut haters" term around so often, even in threads where there is little to no no hate and less harsh words than any Redd or Mo thread, yet you never call anyone in those threads Mo or Redd haters. Then you imply that people who don't feel just as you do about Andrew have an agenda, but you of course don't?

All my agument has been regarding Bogut and all it ever has been is that I think Bogut as a player and the Bucks as a team would be better off if Bogut was used more often and use properly on a cosnsitient bases.

Come on rilaman, if that's all you say, there would be no real argument. For me and i think others, it gets tiring when some Bogutheads spend all their time bashing Mo/Redd, a fair amount of it is warranted BTW, but then find every excuse in the book for Bogut's shortcomings.

It's various coaches fault, it's Redd's fault, it's Mo's fault, it's the popcorn vendors fault that Bogut still has so many holes in his game. Bogut is the only guy you always look to find excuses for his shortcomings and pass the blame on to multiple other people except that player.

If Bogut is used properly his overall production will increase including his rebounding.

The reason I belive that is the fact if he's used properly his attitude will improve and your going to do a better job with a better attitude at anything in life.

Fact is, if you're going to claim that Bogut is one of the only guys who cares about winning, many are going to have a hard time buying it if Andrew needs to be in his own selective proper mood to give his all on the glass given that's one of the most important jobs any center has.

Get some guards who can play a lick of defense and thats 2 more rebounds at least for Bogut.Its hard to grab rebounds when there arent many to be had because your opponet is shooting 50+%.

Have you seen Bogut's rebounding rate/% the last few years? It takes into account the percentage of all missed shots when they are in the game that they rebound. He has been below average as a center last year and this year even though he hasn't had a top rebounding PF next to him to steal away boards.

It's easy to just yet again blame Mo/Redd for another shortcoming in Bogut's game, but when you look at his rebound percentage vs other centers, they simply collect a higher percentage of available rebounds than he does. This bothers me more than his scoring woes.

No question that Redd and Mo not only have plenty of faults, odds are high IMO that those two need to be broken up for this team to go forward. I guess though quite a few people here also think Andrew's many flaws also hurt the team and we aren't as willing as you are to pass the blame for most Bogut's problems on to everyone else except himself.

I think only Bogut himself is to blame for his attitude and motivational mood swings. This is the NBA, not grade school ball, Andrew is being paid a lot of money by the Bucks to play his hardest every night, not just when he's happy with his teammates. Winners don't need to be in a swell mood to bring it.

I think only Bogut is to blame that he can't hit any needed form of a jumper

I think Bogut has good rebounding skills, but only he is to blame that he lacks the killer drive to attack all boards in the way the great rebounders do.

I think only Bogut is to blame for his passive nature in many games at trying to look to score more.

I think only Bogut is to blame that he's a terrible free throw shooter

I think it's largely Bogut's fault his post game isn't more refined by now

Andrew improved his defense this year, it's on him to improve his other shortcomings. If he's sitting back with your oh poor Andrew beliefs and blaming everyone else for why he's not better, he won't ever become what he hopes to.

[ClassicJack]

Thats not true maybe I generalized but i'll clear that up.I don't refer to anyone who isnt a Bogut a fan or supporter a hater just the people who arent objective and knock the guy at every oppritunity.And the ones who like to exaggerate when you say something positive about Bogut,for example.

Well, you throw the "Bogut haters" term around so often, even in threads where there is little to no no hate and less harsh words than any Redd or Mo thread, yet you never call anyone in those threads Mo or Redd haters. Then you imply that people who don't feel just as you do about Andrew have an agenda, but you of course don't?

All my agument has been regarding Bogut and all it ever has been is that I think Bogut as a player and the Bucks as a team would be better off if Bogut was used more often and use properly on a cosnsitient bases.

Come on rilaman, if that's all you say, there would be no real argument. For me and i think others, it gets tiring when some Bogutheads spend all their time bashing Mo/Redd, a fair amount of it is warranted BTW, but then find every excuse in the book for Bogut's shortcomings.

It's various coaches fault, it's Redd's fault, it's Mo's fault, it's the popcorn vendors fault that Bogut still has so many holes in his game. Bogut is the only guy you always look to find excuses for his shortcomings and pass the blame on to multiple other people except that player.

If Bogut is used properly his overall production will increase including his rebounding.

The reason I belive that is the fact if he's used properly his attitude will improve and your going to do a better job with a better attitude at anything in life.

Fact is, if you're going to claim that Bogut is one of the only guys who cares about winning, many are going to have a hard time buying it if Andrew needs to be in his own selective proper mood to give his all on the glass given that's one of the most important jobs any center has.

Get some guards who can play a lick of defense and thats 2 more rebounds at least for Bogut.Its hard to grab rebounds when there arent many to be had because your opponet is shooting 50+%.

Have you seen Bogut's rebounding rate/% the last few years? It takes into account the percentage of all missed shots when they are in the game that they rebound. He has been below average as a center last year and this year even though he hasn't had a top rebounding PF next to him to steal away boards.

It's easy to just yet again blame Mo/Redd for another shortcoming in Bogut's game, but when you look at his rebound percentage vs other centers, they simply collect a higher percentage of available rebounds than he does. This bothers me more than his scoring woes.

No question that Redd and Mo not only have plenty of faults, odds are high IMO that those two need to be broken up for this team to go forward. I guess though quite a few people here also think Andrew's many flaws also hurt the team and we aren't as willing as you are to pass the blame for most Bogut's problems on to everyone else except himself.

I think only Bogut himself is to blame for his attitude and motivational mood swings. This is the NBA, not grade school ball, Andrew is being paid a lot of money by the Bucks to play his hardest every night, not just when he's happy with his teammates. Winners don't need to be in a swell mood to bring it.

I think only Bogut is to blame that he can't hit any needed form of a jumper

I think Bogut has good rebounding skills, but only he is to blame that he lacks the killer drive to attack all boards in the way the great rebounders do.

I think only Bogut is to blame for his passive nature in many games at trying to look to score more.

I think only Bogut is to blame that he's a terrible free throw shooter

I think it's largely Bogut's fault his post game isn't more refined by now

Andrew improved his defense this year, it's on him to improve his other shortcomings. If he's sitting back with your oh poor Andrew beliefs and blaming everyone else for why he's not better, he won't ever become what he hopes to.

[paulpressey25]

-= I think Mo is a far superior player to Jason Terry...

I don't think he is based on those Hollinger stats I brought up in the Mo thread the other day.

As for what percentage of a players plays end in an assist, Mo does have it all over Terry. Mo is ranked 29th among PG's at 28.3 percent of his possessions ending with an assist. Terry is at #51 with only 19.9% of his possessions ending in an assist.

But when you look at what percentage of Terry's possession end with a turnover, Terry ranks second among PG's at 2nd with 6.7%. Mo is down at 37th with 11.9% of his plays ending with a TO.

On total scoring percentage (accounting for 3's and trips to the line) Terry is at #6 whereas Mo ranks 18th.

Terry is elite at scoring for the PG position and elite (actually the best full time player in the NBA at PG) on not making turnovers. He's not as good as Mo on assists but that is because Terry plays more SG with Harris in the game.

[Newz]

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I don't think he is based on those Hollinger stats I brought up in the Mo thread the other day.

As for what percentage of a players plays end in an assist, Mo does have it all over Terry. Mo is ranked 29th among PG's at 28.3 percent of his possessions ending with an assist. Terry is at #51 with only 19.9% of his possessions ending in an assist.

But when you look at what percentage of Terry's possession end with a turnover, Terry ranks second among PG's at 2nd with 6.7%. Mo is down at 37th with 11.9% of his plays ending with a TO.

On total scoring percentage (accounting for 3's and trips to the line) Terry is at #6 whereas Mo ranks 18th.

Terry is elite at scoring for the PG position and elite (actually the best full time player in the NBA at PG) on not making turnovers. He's not as good as Mo on assists but that is because Terry plays more SG with Harris in the game.

I'm glad to see you agree with Hollinger.

Judging by his PER ratings Michael Redd is the 24th best player in the NBA... Better than Derron Williams, Shawn Marion, Carmelo Anthony and Brandon Roy.

I didn't know you thought Redd was really that good judging by how you normally talk about him... You have a pretty low opinion of Roy and Williams though, you might want to rethink that.

[paul]

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I'm glad to see you agree with Hollinger.

Judging by his PER ratings Michael Redd is the 24th best player in the NBA... Better than Derron Williams, Shawn Marion, Carmelo Anthony and Brandon Roy.

I didn't know you thought Redd was really that good judging by how you normally talk about him... You have a pretty low opinion of Roy and Williams though, you might want to rethink that.

Oh dear his rankings just lost all cred if that's the case.

[paulpressey25]

-= I'm glad to see you agree with Hollinger.

Judging by his PER ratings .

You need to go back an re-read those posts. I'm not using his PER ratings at all in these discussions of Mo. What I'm doing is citing factual statistical rankings that he has on the ESPN website that are directly tied to categories such as shooting percentage (after accounting for 3's and FT's), turnovers, and assists. Probably the big three categories that you'd like your PG to rank high in.

PER is a subjective formula that Hollinger puts together where he takes all those statistical categories....assigns different worths to each statistic and comes up with a mumbo jumbo rating. For example, we know Redd is not a guy who turns the ball over a lot....and that shows in his ranking of what percentage of his possessions end in a turnover being low.

That is a very solid subjective category to rank a skill, ability or tendency. But, if I then arbitrarily decide that a players ability to not have his possession result in a turnover should equal 35% of a players "worth" versus say 10% of a players worth in the PER formula, then we are getting into subjective areas.

I like the PER for debate discussion but am not a huge fan of it.