Bucks-Bobcats Postgame Thread 1/6/2007

[El Duderino]

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The rest of our team? The "problem", the guys who get paid a lot of money yet produce nothing. The guys who comprise the worst bench in the NBA and hold some of the most awful contracts in the entire league... Yeah, have you watched the games? Have you seen our REAL problem? It has nothing to do with Bogut, Redd or Mo... It has everything to do with the guys surrounding them.

I wouldn't go that far to say it has almost all to do with who is surrounding Mo/Redd/Bogut.

No question that the production from our starting forwards is terrible most nights and the bench has been a trainwreck. Both situations have been the biggest problem with the team.

Even with that in mind, our top three players in Redd/Mo/Bogut aren't that good compared to the three best players on the majority of teams that are better than the Bucks.

That's what's such a killer for the Bucks and disheartening for the near future at the very least. Even if the bench was better and we got half way decent production from the starters at SF/PF, the Bucks would still be quite a ways behind the better teams in the NBA because our top three guys don't stack up either.

There is nothing special among those three guys and none of them are really close to being a complete player. Redd is mainly just a very good scorer, both him and Mo are a poor defensive backcourt, and Bogut struggles being a consistent scorer and being a good rebounder.

We have a subpar "core" compared to the good teams and the surrounding cast to those guys is terrible, that's a bad bad situation for any team to be in.

[Newz]

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You need to go back an re-read those posts. I'm not using his PER ratings at all in these discussions of Mo. What I'm doing is citing factual statistical rankings that he has on the ESPN website that are directly tied to categories such as shooting percentage (after accounting for 3's and FT's), turnovers, and assists. Probably the big three categories that you'd like your PG to rank high in.

PER is a subjective formula that Hollinger puts together where he takes all those statistical categories....assigns different worths to each statistic and comes up with a mumbo jumbo rating. For example, we know Redd is not a guy who turns the ball over a lot....and that shows in his ranking of what percentage of his possessions end in a turnover being low.

That is a very solid subjective category to rank a skill, ability or tendency. But, if I then arbitrarily decide that a players ability to not have his possession result in a turnover should equal 35% of a players "worth" versus say 10% of a players worth in the PER formula, then we are getting into subjective areas.

I like the PER for debate discussion but am not a huge fan of it.

I understand... You are a big fan of certain stats he provides because they help your argument but you don't like others because they go against what you want.

That's reasonable.

[Newz]

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I wouldn't go that far to say it has almost all to do with who is surrounding Mo/Redd/Bogut.

No question that the production from our starting forwards is terrible most nights and the bench has been a trainwreck. Both situations have been the biggest problem with the team.

Even with that in mind, our top three players in Redd/Mo/Bogut aren't that good compared to the three best players on the majority of teams that are better than the Bucks.

That's what's such a killer for the Bucks and disheartening for the near future at the very least. Even if the bench was better and we got half way decent production from the starters at SF/PF, the Bucks would still be quite a ways behind the better teams in the NBA because our top three guys don't stack up either.

There is nothing special among those three guys and none of them are really close to being a complete player. Redd is mainly just a very good scorer, both him and Mo are a poor defensive backcourt, and Bogut struggles being a consistent scorer and being a good rebounder.

We have a subpar "core" compared to the good teams and the surrounding cast to those guys is terrible, that's a bad bad situation for any team to be in.

I agree... Our best player could be the second best player on a championship team... Like if Redd went to the Cavs they could compete for a title...

You are never going to win a ring with Redd as your best player... Just like you aren't going to win a title with Bogut or Mo as your 2nd/3rd best players.

But our supporting cast is the worst that I have seen in the NBA. Our bench is the worst in the NBA and our starting forward rotation is amongst the worst in the league, if not the worst.

[midranger]

I think there are three types of assists.

Those that are distributed, those that are facilitated, and those that are created.


My distinction is this...

The distributor picks up his assists by simply moving the ball. Perimeter ball swings leading to a made jumper, hitting a player who is wide open under the hoop following a defensive breakdown, giving up the ball on a 4-on-1 break, etc... These are what could be considered "cheap" assists in that the passer didn't do much to make the play happen other than give up the ball. Anybody could have been the guy to do it, but it just happened to be him because he's the PG and the PG has the ball alot.

The facilitator actively works to put his teammates in their best position to score. This may mean moving around the perimeter to get the correct post entry angle, finding a cutter to the rim, working the pick-and-roll/pop effectively, etc... These type of plays are more 50/50 type plays that require both the action (cut, post move, etc...) of the finisher, as well as a precisely timed and placed pass.

The creator puts his teammates a position where they virtually can't fail. This is when the PG breaks down down his man, collapses the defense, and then finds an open teammate for a dunk or easy jumper. This is the hardest kind of play for a PG to make, and what I consider to be "Making one's teammates better."




Now people say the Mo doesn't have any PG instincts, or that he's just a chucker, or he's a SG in a PG's body. But look at how the majority of his assists have been coming this year. He's not getting many of those cheap assists at all, mainly because our team's jumpshooting on the whole has been disgusting this year. Bell, Simmons, CV, even Redd to a lesser degree have been awful at knocking down open jumpers. So how are his assists coming? Read the game threads and count the "MOGUT!!!!!!'s" posted. Mo has improved greatly both as a facilitator and creator this year. He consistent put Bogut in his best position to succeed. He's draws and kick to Yi an awful lot. You can certainly see a huge improvement in this from years past.

I think that Mo gets the short end of the stick on this board from the many people who label him a "SG in a PG's body" simply because he's a good scorer. It's almost as if the ability to score efficiently is looked at as a negative somehow. The guy clearly has PG instincts. Good ones. His ability to shoot the ball does not detract from that.

[REDDzone]

No, no, no. Mo is a chucker, and a sg in a pg's body. He also just puts Bogut in a position to get blocked. Mo Williams =< Mike James.







EDIT: Not calling anyone out, I just thought it was funny because where Mid sees Mo putting Bogut in a great position to score, others see him as putting Bogut 'in a position to get blocked'.


Crazy the different perspectives on this board.

[Sigra]

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No as a rule no. It was merely an observation beyond all things Bogut that Sigra frequently changes his mind on a lot of things. And that is fine. Just need to keep that in perspective when progressing his posts.

What was your opinion about life when you were 1 year old?
What was your opinion about life when you were 2 years old?
What was your opinion about life when you were 3 years old?
What was your opinion about life when you were 4 years old?
What was your opinion about life when you were 5 years old?
What was your opinion about life when you were 6 years old?
What was your opinion about life when you were 7 years old?
What was your opinion about life when you were 8 years old?
What was your opinion about life when you were 9 years old?
What was your opinion about life when you were 10 years old?
What was your opinion about life when you were 11 years old?
What is your opinion about life now?

It changed with every new year isn't it? That is what we call learning. With years people see more and more things and that help them to shape new opinions. Only idiots don't change opinions. Of course that with every new day I know more and have more informations.

This is not forum of Bogut fans or Redd fans. This is Bucks forum. I can talk good about player and then talk bad about that same player. When I talked good about him it was not because I was his fan but because at that moment I had that opinion about that member of my favorite team. When I talk "bad" about him that doesn't mean that I hate him. It is just my opinion about him at this moment with informations that I have now.

I would trade ANY member of this team if I think that improve us. If I make thread with trade proposion it doesn't mean that I hate that player(s). It is just idea how to improve team.

When I say that some player is not good offansive option that doesn't mean that I hate that player. It is just my opinion about how to use one member of my favorite team.

This is all geting boring and I am tired of talking about that. You fans of players should really find diferent forum to talk about your favorite players. This is Bucks forum. Bucks = team. Got it?

[Chapter29]

No, no, no. Mo is a chucker, and a sg in a pg's body. He also just puts Bogut in a position to get blocked. Mo Williams =< Mike James.







EDIT: Not calling anyone out, I just thought it was funny because where Mid sees Mo putting Bogut in a great position to score, others see him as putting Bogut 'in a position to get blocked'.


Crazy the different perspectives on this board.

No Midranger is Mo's brother and Jerrod is his nephew so you must consider the bias when reading their posts. Much like Buckskins with Simmons.

Putting Bogut into position to get blocked? That is kind of funny. For Bogut that is anywhere in the paint. Shame on you Mo.

Mo is doing a good job running the point. He has certainly evolved his game and should be commended for that. Where I and many others have issue is that Mo is a terrible defender and coupled with Redd make for very poor perimeter defense. We can keep Mo (which I am in favor of) and either move him to the bench or move Redd. I cannot see both together long term.

[jerrod]

I think there are three types of assists...

great post

[BuckFan25226]

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No as a rule no. It was merely an observation beyond all things Bogut that Sigra frequently changes his mind on a lot of things. And that is fine. Just need to keep that in perspective when progressing his posts.

What was your opinion about life when you were 1 year old?
What was your opinion about life when you were 2 years old?
What was your opinion about life when you were 3 years old?
What was your opinion about life when you were 4 years old?
What was your opinion about life when you were 5 years old?
What was your opinion about life when you were 6 years old?
What was your opinion about life when you were 7 years old?
What was your opinion about life when you were 8 years old?
What was your opinion about life when you were 9 years old?
What was your opinion about life when you were 10 years old?
What was your opinion about life when you were 11 years old?
What is your opinion about life now?

Classic!

I would trade ANY member of this team if I think that improve us. If I make thread with trade proposion it doesn't mean that I hate that player(s). It is just idea how to improve team.