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I think even from a short-term perspective, those guys could help as much and potentially more than Delfino. So this isn't really about winning now or building for the future. I just want the best guys to play and I don't think Delfino is very good. Therefore if he gets a lot of minutes (and I fear that could happen), I think that puts the team at risk as a result.

You jumped off the Hammond bandwagon pretty quick, Europa.

DrugBust wrote:Can I just get the optimists and the stat heads to agree that 44 wins should be expected this season? Because that's what all these arguments seem to add up to.

im down with this completely. 44 is reasonable.... we got younger, cheaper, harder working defensive minded, more talented players to replace the the guys that might have won 44 games last year if healthy.

to blow it up and tank is asinine says this optimist.

LukePliska wrote:You jumped off the Hammond bandwagon pretty quick, Europa.

I wouldn't say I jumped off his bandwagon. It's more that I didn't like his last two moves of the offseason and I think he put next season at risk as a result. I said all along I thought this offseason and how he handled the Sessions situation could prove to be critical in his tenure as the team's GM. I don't believe he made the right call with Sessions and I think that and the Delfino trade turned a positive offseason into a potentially negative one.

I hope I'm proven wrong and this team is better than I expect. I don't want to watch another wasted season and see another trip to the lottery. In my opinion, Hammond must get this team back to the playoffs to show signs of improvement.

europa wrote:My concern is I don't think Delfino is very good and therefore the minutes he gets could have a negative impact on the team's potential for success. I don't think he brings anything to the court that M&M, Bell, Meeks and maybe even Alexander couldn't also provide. I fear he'll prove to be another Jiri Welsch and Steve Blake. A player touted for his "efficiency" who simply isn't any good.

i wish youd quit hammering this nonsense. the guy played 25 min/ game on a 50win ballclub as the most effective SF on the team as a 25 year old in his 3rd full season. that was his last nba season.

he left over a salary dispute similar to childresses to become the highest paid player ever in europe.

your contention is that hes not very good? why the hate? the guys very similar, and arguably better than childress, and you want to have childresses babies. i dont get it.

Forgive me if I don't excited about a player whose best season resulted in 9 points per game on 39.7% shooting from the floor.

And the Raptors were not a 50-win team in Delfino's last NBA season. They actually underachieved and went 41-41. I'd also say that Jamario Moon was the best SF on that team, not Delfino, who was 25 that season.

When I compare the SF position from last year to this year I see a much improved defense between Delfino and MM than RJ/JA/Bell/Bogans. Delfino will certainly not match RJ's offensive numbers. But that spot is much better defensively and rebounding wise.

At PF last year we had mostly CV/Allen/MM and I think with Warrick/Ilyasova we have to improve since CV and Allen were so atrocious. Between Warrick and Ersan they'll at least combine to match or better what the CV/Allen combo did on offense. So, I think it's possible this position has improved.

Sessions was never a stopper at PG, so I can't see how Jennings could be worse on defense. On offense, Jennings is most likely a downgrade, but I think I'll wait to see him play before I make a decision on that.

I think Hammond/Skiles knew how bad this team was situated on offense and shooting and thats the reasoning behind the Delfino/Warrick additions.

Did anyone really think we could start a front line of MM/Amir/Bogut?

There is no shooting out of those three. There is no shot creation. There is no spacing. That lineup while solid defensively would not be able to score points at all. After Warrick was available we decided to roll with Warrick/Ersan over Amir who maybe Hammond never had a high opinion on, but saw him as an asset he could move or a guy he could get a spot in our rotation. But Hammond probably knows he is what he is at this point and after last years play when he did get extended minutes.

I'm trying to be optimistic obviously, maybe it's just the mood I'm in. But it's very possible this is a team that will go out, defend, play hard and keep us in games every night. I don't see this as a team that will get blown out much (if Bogut stays healthy). This pretty much defines a "Skiles" team and hes done pretty well in the past. So, I'll give him an opportunity to show me what this team can do.

Or we could suck by epic proportions

europa wrote:Forgive me if I don't excited about a player whose best season resulted in 9 points per game on 39.7% shooting from the floor.

And the Raptors were not a 50-win team in Delfino's last NBA season. They actually underachieved and went 41-41. I'd also say that Jamario Moon was the best SF on that team, not Delfino, who was 25 that season.

i whiffed the record, and had already editted his age. obviously i lost a little credibility there, which is unfortunate because i wasnt going to sway you much anyway.

the guy shot about the same from 3pt as overall.... he is definitely a gunner from long range, but he can nail it. it was also his first full season getting time adjusting to a bigger role.... and anybody who can shoot like that from 3, you can assume is a shooter. the overall fg% has to improve with that shot and a little coaching.

i wish you wouldnt hate on the guy. its warrick that is less of a fit for where were headed.... delfino is a bigtime international player who could easily "get it" the way turkoglo, ginobili, and others have as they matured.

in the meantime, he also has value immediately if that potential is never reached anyway. hes not so bad to continually trash him the way you do, cause we gave up your lovechild amir johnson(whoever he is) in the deal.

europa wrote:On a related note, the Bucks have gone from having three players (Redd, RJ and Sessions) who could get to the line at a quality level to having one (Redd). That's another aspect of the team which concerns me and another potentially significant downgrade.

Warrick was better at getting to the line than Sessions last season.

Wise1 wrote:

europa wrote:On a related note, the Bucks have gone from having three players (Redd, RJ and Sessions) who could get to the line at a quality level to having one (Redd). That's another aspect of the team which concerns me and another potentially significant downgrade.

Warrick was better at getting to the line than Sessions last season.

You're right. I forgot about Warrick and I shouldn't have done that because I really like that pickup a lot. I think Hammond did very well with that signing.

And Sikma, I hope you and ReddZone are right about Delfino and I'm wrong. I hope that will happen. I fear, though, that we'll see another Steve Blake who I also strongly disliked when he was with the Bucks and did not believe would play well. Hopefully that doesn't happen because there's more riding on Delfino than Blake since I expect him to be a starter whereas Blake was just a backup.

europa wrote:have done that because I really like that pickup a lot. I think Hammond did very well with that signing.

And Sikma, I hope you and ReddZone are right about Delfino and I'm wrong. I hope that will happen. I fear, though, that we'll see another Steve Blake who I also strongly disliked when he was with the Bucks and did not believe would play well. Hopefully that doesn't happen because there's more riding on Delfino than Blake since I expect him to be a starter whereas Blake was just a backup.

i dont see how you could get a guy like blake in the discussion of delfino. to me hes a euro ricky davis/ marquis daniels type player. if he settles down and is given an oppurtunity from the start he could surprise. i think hes been trying to live up to his international reputation and struggling in the process to find a system/ rhythm where his decision making settles down.

the guy can shoot, hes athletic, he mixes it up....but can play out of control. his game is the anti- steve blake if you ask me.

Because I believe Delfino, like Blake, is someone who people overrate because of his efficiency while ignoring the fact he isn't very good. And again, I don't believe someone who struggles to shoot 40% from the floor is a good shooter. He can shoot the 3 ball but when you are a career 40% FG shooter you are not a good shooter. You actually are very bad at shooting.

europa wrote:I hope you're right about Delfino. He's never impressed me as a player. I think he does one thing well - shoot the 3 ball. Bell and Alexander both have proven they can do that and I believe Meeks can do it as well. Delfino's not a bad defender, but he isn't as good as M&M in my opinion so I see a downgrade there if he's taking minutes from M&M. Delfino is an OK rebounder but again I don't see any reason to believe he'd be better at it than M&M. I just don't see where he provides an upgrade. I worry about the fact that overall, he's a horrible shooter, he doesn't get to the FT line (a rather significant downgrade from RJ) and his overall game is pedestrian at best.

I don't think Delfino is anything to write home about, but he can be a very solid role player in this system. His ability to actually hit the 3 as well as rebound give him the nod over LRMBAM in my effectiveness book. Luc is the better defender for sure, but his complete inability to hit the open jumper is a HUGE liability for a team that may struggle to score points. This is why I prefer Delfino over Luc in the starting lineup.

europa wrote:I have the same vibes about this guy that I had about Blake (another trade I hated). Like Blake, I think there's way too much talk about Delfino's "efficiency" and not enough discussion about what I believe is his lack of talent. And I worry that Hammond and Skiles will become too enamored with him (as Stotts was with Jiri, for example) and play him too much to the detriment of the team.

I think Steve Blake may have Terrell Brandoned the franchise. He didn't want to be here and wasn't committed to playing his best ball imo. He was a lot better player in both Denver and Portland. If you don't believe in sabatoge, consider Blake's 35%fg shooting and 55%ft shooting as a Buck compared to his career averages or what he did AFTER he left the Bucks.

You don't have to tell me how bad Blake was, Kirby. If you recall, I said at the time of the trade he was going to stink with the Bucks. I did not like his acquisition at all and was thrilled when Harris got rid of him.

For the record, if healthy I'm calling 40-45 wins. I like the athletes that Hammond has acquired. I like the length and ability to menace passing lanes. I like the Kurt Thomas addition. Kurt Thomas more than makes up for Amir Johnson in overall effectiveness on a next season basis. I don't see a defensive downgrade at the four with Kurt Thomas, Ersan Ilyasova, and LRMBAM all able to play there. I think the rebounding will be strong and the transition game improved. The Bucks should create more turnovers with Jennings on the floor.

The Bucks, imo, will rank somewhere between 16th and 19th offensively while being top 10 in both rebounding and defense.

If Bogut or Redd are in and out of the lineup all year, cancel Christmas.

I like Kurt Thomas too. I think he's going to help this team.

The other nice thing about Thomas is that I think of all the expirings he's the one who could potentially have the most value at the deadline. Contending teams are always looking for solid veteran frontcourt help for the playoffs and Thomas can provide that.

europa wrote:The other nice thing about Thomas is that I think of all the expirings he's the one who could potentially have the most value at the deadline. Contending teams are always looking for solid veteran frontcourt help for the playoffs and Thomas can provide that.

at the deadline in 07-08 the sonics got barry/elson/ and a #1 for him when he went to the spurs. imagine what thomas, ridnour, and warrick could net in a 3way deadline deal next year. i think hammond is banking on having those options now.

any word on JA?

EastSideBucksFan wrote:When I compare the SF position from last year to this year I see a much improved defense between Delfino and MM than RJ/JA/Bell/Bogans. Delfino will certainly not match RJ's offensive numbers. But that spot is much better defensively and rebounding wise.

At PF last year we had mostly CV/Allen/MM and I think with Warrick/Ilyasova we have to improve since CV and Allen were so atrocious. Between Warrick and Ersan they'll at least combine to match or better what the CV/Allen combo did on offense. So, I think it's possible this position has improved.

Sessions was never a stopper at PG, so I can't see how Jennings could be worse on defense. On offense, Jennings is most likely a downgrade, but I think I'll wait to see him play before I make a decision on that.

I think Hammond/Skiles knew how bad this team was situated on offense and shooting and thats the reasoning behind the Delfino/Warrick additions.

Did anyone really think we could start a front line of MM/Amir/Bogut?

There is no shooting out of those three. There is no shot creation. There is no spacing. That lineup while solid defensively would not be able to score points at all. After Warrick was available we decided to roll with Warrick/Ersan over Amir who maybe Hammond never had a high opinion on, but saw him as an asset he could move or a guy he could get a spot in our rotation. But Hammond probably knows he is what he is at this point and after last years play when he did get extended minutes.

I'm trying to be optimistic obviously, maybe it's just the mood I'm in. But it's very possible this is a team that will go out, defend, play hard and keep us in games every night. I don't see this as a team that will get blown out much (if Bogut stays healthy). This pretty much defines a "Skiles" team and hes done pretty well in the past. So, I'll give him an opportunity to show me what this team can do.

Or we could suck by epic proportions

Overall I can agree with this viewpoint on the upcoming season. I would call myself cautiously optimistic.

PG: We are maybe better, likely the same, maybe worse. All on Jennings. Will he be as good as Sessions in his 1st year? As good, but different. There's your likely the same. I hope he's a TJ type player (slightly better than Sessions) this year. Jennings has to merge what Ridnour and Sessions provided us last season. One can run a team while the other can score and create. Jennings needs to do all of those things.

SF: RJ/M&M vs Delfino/M&M or vise versa. We downgraded. But not by as much as people may think. I mean lets face it. RJ was an athletic shell of his former self, I don't think he is getting that back either. He was a decent offensive player, but as a whole he was maybe average and on a decline. Delfino, though I hate him and agree he may be a Steve Blake, is a fundamentally sound euro player. Seems to have a nice skill set and is more athletic than I thought. M&M is M&M.

PF: I honestly think we got a lot better at the position. CV/M&M vs Ersan/Warrick. CV is fools gold. Very skilled offensively, but not consistent at all and a sieve on defense. Glen Robinson was similar (yet even better) player, but still proved to be about a wash when you looked at his defense. M&M imo is a tweener and not a great choice for big minutes at the position. More of a SF. I am a big Ersan fan and he definitely brings that euro skilled fundamentally sound player type that I think we all hoped Yi could have been. And then Warrick, who worries me a little, brings something we have lacked at the position. Above the rim play and some offense that isn't based on deep perimeter shots. In the end we went from 2 backups at the position and still have 2 backups at the position. So our talent level is somewhat low, our depth decent and our overall position probably better. As sad as that is. Hopefully Ersan surprises.

Bogut and Redd should stabilize this team. I don't know what our record will be but I do think we have a better "team" than last year.