Game 59: Hornets at Bucks - 2/27/24 - 7:00 - BSWI

[rilamann]

Plus Khris has become of those players who can still contribute, but starts to become more of a detriment if you play him more than 25+ minutes.

No he hasn’t lol. After they lifted his minutes restriction at the start of December, Khris was averaging 30mpg for over 2 months straight until KD injured him, and was giving us 17/5/6 on 50/40/87 shooting (61% TS) and was a clear positive by impact metrics.

If Khris is what he was in December/January, reducing him to a 20-25 mpg guy actively lowers this team’s ceiling.

That's in December & January against a lot of bad and mediocre teams.

In the playoffs when you're playing the best teams in the league every other night and at super high intensity, the last thing you want is Khris Middleton on the floor for 30+ minutes.

I am not saying Middleton sucks or is completely useless, but at this point in his career we're much better off with him coming off the bench and playing no more than 25 minutes a night. Especially in the playoffs.

It's cute that Middleton put up some nice numbers in January against teams like the Pistons.

But in a best of 7 series against a team like the Pacers for example, playing Middleton 30+ minutes a night would be suicide. Mostly because Middleton looks 55 years old on the defensive end.

Middleton can still hit some shots and that obviously has a lot of value, but it would be higher value to the Bucks as an offensive spark off the bench. And less minutes means less bad defensive possessions and less dribbles off the foot for Middleton.

You want to still get his offensive contributions while limiting the bad stuff and 25 minutes a night off the bench is perfect for Middleton at this stage of his career. And perfect for the Bucks.

[DutchManDanFan]

The Bucks would be worlds better overall as a team with Khris coming off the bench.

We've already seen that the starting 5 is just fine without Khris.

But if you bring Khris off the bench, our bench goes from one of the worst in the league, to at worst middle of the pack. That would be huge.

Plus Khris has become of those players who can still contribute, but starts to become more of a detriment if you play him more than 25+ minutes.

You don't want Khris taking too many shots away from Giannis or Dame. Plus Khris looks like he's trying to run in quicksand defensively. Plus you could keep him on a minutes restriction in the process which might lessen the chances of him always getting hurt and it would keep him fresher overall.

It would make all the sense in the world to bring Khris off the bench and play him 20/25 minutes a night.

Players and coaches always talk about the sacrifices it takes to win a championship. Khris accepting a 6th man role could potentially be a major catalyst to us getting back to the Finals.

If I was an opponent of the Bucks like Boston or Cleveland, I would be more nervous about playing the Bucks if they started bringing in Khris off the bench as a scoring spark with the 2nd unit.

Giannis goes to the bench first after 6 mins. and comes in for KM after 9 to play with Dame for the last 3 mins of Q1.
In Q2 Giannis starts with the bench a few mins before KM comes in. After 6 mins Dame comes in for Giannis, who sits for 3 mins. KM sits a few mins in Q2 as well.
=> 18 mins per half for Giannis and Dame, 12 mins together. 15 mins per half for Khris.
9 mins per half with big 3.
9 mins with 2 of 3
3 mins with only Giannis
3 mins with only Dame.

Because the big 3 will finish every important/close game, you want to give them enough time together to click. So it's a very bad idea to let one of them start on the bench.

[drdrG]

Plus Khris has become of those players who can still contribute, but starts to become more of a detriment if you play him more than 25+ minutes.

No he hasn’t lol. After they lifted his minutes restriction at the start of December, Khris was averaging 30mpg for over 2 months straight until KD injured him, and was giving us 17/5/6 on 50/40/87 shooting (61% TS) and was a clear positive by impact metrics.

If Khris is what he was in December/January, reducing him to a 20-25 mpg guy actively lowers this team’s ceiling.

That's in December & January against a lot of bad and mediocre teams.

In the playoffs when you're playing the best teams in the league every other night and at super high intensity, the last thing you want is Khris Middleton on the floor for 30+ minutes.

I am not saying Middleton sucks or is completely useless, but at this point in his career we're much better off with him coming off the bench and playing no more than 25 minutes a night. Especially in the playoffs.

It's cute that Middleton put up some nice numbers in January against teams like the Pistons.

But in a best of 7 series against a team like the Pacers for example, playing Middleton 30+ minutes a night would be suicide. Mostly because Middleton looks 55 years old on the defensive end.

Middleton can still hit some shots and that obviously has a lot of value, but it would be higher value to the Bucks as an offensive spark off the bench. And less minutes means less bad defensive possessions and less dribbles off the foot for Middleton.

You want to still get his offensive contributions while limiting the bad stuff and 25 minutes a night off the bench is perfect for Middleton at this stage of his career. And perfect for the Bucks.

I think almost completely the opposite. His most impactful moments of the season came in the Celtics blowout and Doc's first game against the Nuggets. He is especially helpful to us against the best teams as a secondary playmaker and wing scorer.

Middleton was effective for 35+ minutes a night against the Heat in R1 last year. At first it might be hard to believe but given his knee cleanup in the offseason and his low minutes this year, he might even be healthier in the playoffs this year. His effectiveness in the halfcourt grind of the playoffs is magnified. I can't stand the sloppy ball-handling as much as the next person but this guy is a proven playoff performer. He's always been a solid team defender, despite his limited athleticism. We want him to play as many minutes as he can be effective, especially against the best teams with zero shot creation coming from any other wing on the roster.

There are a couple of matchups where I think his footspeed really hurts, the Pacers for one. Overall though, cutting his minutes in favor of other lesser players makes very little sense to me.

[rilamann]

I am the only one here who has accepted the fact that Middleton is not the same guy he was in 2021? And never will be that guy again.

I feel like the people who scoff at the notion of Khris coming off the bench are living in a fantasy world where they still think that it's just a matter of time before Khris Middleton magically returns to being the guy he was in 2021.

Here's a stat from this season.

Bucks record when Khris plays 30 or more minutes: 10-10

Bucks record when Khris plays under 30 minutes: 18-6.

[rilamann]

No he hasn’t lol. After they lifted his minutes restriction at the start of December, Khris was averaging 30mpg for over 2 months straight until KD injured him, and was giving us 17/5/6 on 50/40/87 shooting (61% TS) and was a clear positive by impact metrics.

If Khris is what he was in December/January, reducing him to a 20-25 mpg guy actively lowers this team’s ceiling.

That's in December & January against a lot of bad and mediocre teams.

In the playoffs when you're playing the best teams in the league every other night and at super high intensity, the last thing you want is Khris Middleton on the floor for 30+ minutes.

I am not saying Middleton sucks or is completely useless, but at this point in his career we're much better off with him coming off the bench and playing no more than 25 minutes a night. Especially in the playoffs.

It's cute that Middleton put up some nice numbers in January against teams like the Pistons.

But in a best of 7 series against a team like the Pacers for example, playing Middleton 30+ minutes a night would be suicide. Mostly because Middleton looks 55 years old on the defensive end.

Middleton can still hit some shots and that obviously has a lot of value, but it would be higher value to the Bucks as an offensive spark off the bench. And less minutes means less bad defensive possessions and less dribbles off the foot for Middleton.

You want to still get his offensive contributions while limiting the bad stuff and 25 minutes a night off the bench is perfect for Middleton at this stage of his career. And perfect for the Bucks.

I think almost completely the opposite. His most impactful moments of the season came in the Celtics blowout and Doc's first game against the Nuggets. He is especially helpful to us against the best teams as a secondary playmaker and wing scorer.

Middleton was effective for 35+ minutes a night against the Heat in R1 last year. At first it might be hard to believe but given his knee cleanup in the offseason and his low minutes this year, he might even be healthier in the playoffs this year. His effectiveness in the halfcourt grind of the playoffs is magnified. I can't stand the sloppy ball-handling as much as the next person but this guy is a proven playoff performer. He's always been a solid team defender, despite his limited athleticism. We want him to play as many minutes as he can be effective, especially against the best teams with zero shot creation coming from any other wing on the roster.

There are a couple of matchups where I think his footspeed really hurts, the Pacers for one. Overall though, cutting his minutes in favor of other lesser players makes very little sense to me.

Really? The Celtics blowout game where Khris had 5pts on 2-9 (1-5 from 3) is the one where Khris had his most impactful moments?

And the Nuggets game in Doc's debut when Khris had 4 turnovers? The Nuggets game is an especially bad example considering we beat the Nuggets 2 weeks later by 17 without Khris.

I've watched every Bucks game this season, you're never going to sell me on the idea that the 2024 Bucks are a better team when Khris Middleton plays 30+ minutes. Never mind my eye test, the stats back that up as well.

If I was facing the Bucks and had to deal with Giannis & Dame to start the game, then a fresh Khris Middleton comes in off the bench as a 6th man with a green light to shoot, I would be more fearful of the Bucks. You would be maximizing Middleton's offensive contributions, while limiting his bad defensive possessions and unforced turnovers.

It makes all the sense in the world if you can accept who Middleton is as a basketball player in 2024.

[Prez]

Plus Khris has become of those players who can still contribute, but starts to become more of a detriment if you play him more than 25+ minutes.

No he hasn’t lol. After they lifted his minutes restriction at the start of December, Khris was averaging 30mpg for over 2 months straight until KD injured him, and was giving us 17/5/6 on 50/40/87 shooting (61% TS) and was a clear positive by impact metrics.

If Khris is what he was in December/January, reducing him to a 20-25 mpg guy actively lowers this team’s ceiling.

That's in December & January against a lot of bad and mediocre teams.

In the playoffs when you're playing the best teams in the league every other night and at super high intensity, the last thing you want is Khris Middleton on the floor for 30+ minutes.

I am not saying Middleton sucks or is completely useless, but at this point in his career we're much better off with him coming off the bench and playing no more than 25 minutes a night. Especially in the playoffs.

It's cute that Middleton put up some nice numbers in January against teams like the Pistons.

But in a best of 7 series against a team like the Pacers for example, playing Middleton 30+ minutes a night would be suicide. Mostly because Middleton looks 55 years old on the defensive end.

Middleton can still hit some shots and that obviously has a lot of value, but it would be higher value to the Bucks as an offensive spark off the bench. And less minutes means less bad defensive possessions and less dribbles off the foot for Middleton.

You want to still get his offensive contributions while limiting the bad stuff and 25 minutes a night off the bench is perfect for Middleton at this stage of his career. And perfect for the Bucks.

Ah okay, so now that the numbers were brought up, we’re gonna shift the goalposts and dismiss what we’ve actually seen in favor of what we think will happen hypothetically in the playoffs.

Funny enough, Mids even in one of his most injury plagued season last year was one of the only guys who somewhat showed up against Miami, giving us 24/6/6 on 60% TS and we were 29 points per 100 better with him on the floor in that series. Absolutely cratered when he sat.

I am not saying Middleton sucks or is completely useless

Also to this specifically…yes you did lol, literally just 5 days ago:

Middleton is pretty much useless at this point and the sliver of value that he had left in the trade market will be gone by this offseason.

[drdrG]

That's in December & January against a lot of bad and mediocre teams.

In the playoffs when you're playing the best teams in the league every other night and at super high intensity, the last thing you want is Khris Middleton on the floor for 30+ minutes.

I am not saying Middleton sucks or is completely useless, but at this point in his career we're much better off with him coming off the bench and playing no more than 25 minutes a night. Especially in the playoffs.

It's cute that Middleton put up some nice numbers in January against teams like the Pistons.

But in a best of 7 series against a team like the Pacers for example, playing Middleton 30+ minutes a night would be suicide. Mostly because Middleton looks 55 years old on the defensive end.

Middleton can still hit some shots and that obviously has a lot of value, but it would be higher value to the Bucks as an offensive spark off the bench. And less minutes means less bad defensive possessions and less dribbles off the foot for Middleton.

You want to still get his offensive contributions while limiting the bad stuff and 25 minutes a night off the bench is perfect for Middleton at this stage of his career. And perfect for the Bucks.

I think almost completely the opposite. His most impactful moments of the season came in the Celtics blowout and Doc's first game against the Nuggets. He is especially helpful to us against the best teams as a secondary playmaker and wing scorer.

Middleton was effective for 35+ minutes a night against the Heat in R1 last year. At first it might be hard to believe but given his knee cleanup in the offseason and his low minutes this year, he might even be healthier in the playoffs this year. His effectiveness in the halfcourt grind of the playoffs is magnified. I can't stand the sloppy ball-handling as much as the next person but this guy is a proven playoff performer. He's always been a solid team defender, despite his limited athleticism. We want him to play as many minutes as he can be effective, especially against the best teams with zero shot creation coming from any other wing on the roster.

There are a couple of matchups where I think his footspeed really hurts, the Pacers for one. Overall though, cutting his minutes in favor of other lesser players makes very little sense to me.

Really? The Celtics blowout game where Khris had 5pts on 2-9 (1-5 from 3) is the one where Khris had his most impactful moments?

And the Nuggets game in Doc's debut when Khris had 4 turnovers? The Nuggets game is an especially bad example considering we beat the Nuggets 2 weeks later by 17 without Khris.

I've watched every Bucks game this season, you're never going to sell me on the idea that the 2024 Bucks are a better team when Khris Middleton plays 30+ minutes. Never mind my eye test, the stats back that up as well.

If I was facing the Bucks and had to deal with Giannis & Dame to start the game, then a fresh Khris Middleton comes in off the bench as a 6th man with a green light to shoot, I would be more fearful of the Bucks. You would be maximizing Middleton's offensive contributions, while limiting his bad defensive possessions and unforced turnovers.

It makes all the sense in the world if you can accept who Middleton is as a basketball player in 2024.

Well if nothing will convince you otherwise, there's not much point I guess. Middleton had 7 assists in the first half against Boston and played his best defense of the season. He had several stops against both Jays. Shots fall and don't fall. Everything else is what leads to consistent team success. Middleton carried us offensively for stretches on the road against a geared up defending champ.

Middleton+ lineups have been the most productive Bucks lineups all season. When he's been out there has been when we've been at our best. I'm not sure what stats you're referring to backing up that the bucks are better when Middleton doesn't play. If Middleton comes off the bench to start the game, that's fine with me, but he should be playing as much as possible.

What I don't understand about your argument is that if Middleton isn't playing someone else is. Do you prefer Crowder and Pat C for an extra 10 minutes a game? Connaughton has ranked as one of the worst players in the league this season.

[Shaffty]

Read on Twitter

[LUKE23]

The bucks starting five has the best net rating in the league with Middleton. It’s really tough to argue that him playing less minutes makes us better. If you want to argue that he’s injury prone and pretty slow on defense now, I will not argue with you. But there is zero chance we are better with him coming off the bench and playing less minutes than we are with him starting.

[rilamann]

No he hasn’t lol. After they lifted his minutes restriction at the start of December, Khris was averaging 30mpg for over 2 months straight until KD injured him, and was giving us 17/5/6 on 50/40/87 shooting (61% TS) and was a clear positive by impact metrics.

If Khris is what he was in December/January, reducing him to a 20-25 mpg guy actively lowers this team’s ceiling.

That's in December & January against a lot of bad and mediocre teams.

In the playoffs when you're playing the best teams in the league every other night and at super high intensity, the last thing you want is Khris Middleton on the floor for 30+ minutes.

I am not saying Middleton sucks or is completely useless, but at this point in his career we're much better off with him coming off the bench and playing no more than 25 minutes a night. Especially in the playoffs.

It's cute that Middleton put up some nice numbers in January against teams like the Pistons.

But in a best of 7 series against a team like the Pacers for example, playing Middleton 30+ minutes a night would be suicide. Mostly because Middleton looks 55 years old on the defensive end.

Middleton can still hit some shots and that obviously has a lot of value, but it would be higher value to the Bucks as an offensive spark off the bench. And less minutes means less bad defensive possessions and less dribbles off the foot for Middleton.

You want to still get his offensive contributions while limiting the bad stuff and 25 minutes a night off the bench is perfect for Middleton at this stage of his career. And perfect for the Bucks.

Ah okay, so now that the numbers were brought up, we’re gonna shift the goalposts and dismiss what we’ve actually seen in favor of what we think will happen hypothetically in the playoffs.

Funny enough, Mids even in one of his most injury plagued season last year was one of the only guys who somewhat showed up against Miami, giving us 24/6/6 on 60% TS and we were 29 points per 100 better with him on the floor in that series. Absolutely cratered when he sat.

I am not saying Middleton sucks or is completely useless

Also to this specifically…yes you did lol, literally just 5 days ago:

Middleton is pretty much useless at this point and the sliver of value that he had left in the trade market will be gone by this offseason.

Bucks were a much different team last season with Jrue in place Dame. You can't really compare this current team with last season's team if we are talking about offense. Last season we needed every ounce of offense we could get from Middleton. Even if you wanted to argue Middleton would have been better off the bench in 2023, we didn't have that luxury last season.

I am not arguing that Middleton should have come off the bench in 2023. I am arguing that now with Dame on board, we would be better having Middleton's offense coming as a spark off the bench in 2024. As opposed to Middleton starting and playing 30+ minutes a night and forming a big 3 with Giannis & Dame. Middleton is not that guy anymore.

I am also factoring in how slow Middleton is defensively and how prone he has become to injuries and missing time. Less minutes means less injuries and a fresher Middleton with less potential games missed.. He's also a year older than he was last season and that's big when you consider that Middleton is aging like milk.

As for me saying Middleton is useless 5 days ago. The context was that I saying he's become kind of useless in terms of availability. I don't think Middleton is useless when he actually suits up.

I do think a guy is useless if he's going to miss a month every time he falls down.

[j_hilge444]

I am the only one here who has accepted the fact that Middleton is not the same guy he was in 2021? And never will be that guy again.

I feel like the people who scoff at the notion of Khris coming off the bench are living in a fantasy world where they still think that it's just a matter of time before Khris Middleton magically returns to being the guy he was in 2021.

Here's a stat from this season.

Bucks record when Khris plays 30 or more minutes: 10-10

Bucks record when Khris plays under 30 minutes: 18-6.

Obviously Khris is not the same guy he was in 2021 and never will be. But there's a big leap between saying that and saying he should come off the bench and only play 25mpg.

[Ron Swanson]

Guys, when someone is no longer a Top-20 player in the league, logically that means he needs to be benched. This ain't Rocket Science.

[rilamann]

I am the only one here who has accepted the fact that Middleton is not the same guy he was in 2021? And never will be that guy again.

I feel like the people who scoff at the notion of Khris coming off the bench are living in a fantasy world where they still think that it's just a matter of time before Khris Middleton magically returns to being the guy he was in 2021.

Here's a stat from this season.

Bucks record when Khris plays 30 or more minutes: 10-10

Bucks record when Khris plays under 30 minutes: 18-6.

Obviously Khris is not the same guy he was in 2021 and never will be. But there's a big leap between saying that and saying he should come off the bench and only play 25mpg.

When you consider how much Middleton's game has aged in since 2021.

Saying he could still be a 25mpg 6th man is a huge compliment.

With all due respect, saying that the current version of Khris Middleton should still be a 30+ minute a night player, especially in the playoffs is absolute lunacy.

Starting or not starting I think is an argument, I think the Bucks would be better with Khris off the bench with Dame on board.

But what you can't really argue IMO is if Khris should be playing 30+ minutes every night to form a big 3 with Giannis & Dame. I love Khris, too, but the reality is, he is a really good role player at this point on his career and on this particular team, he would have more value as a 6th man.

[KidA24]

You think playing Jae Crowder more minutes than Middleton makes this bucks team better?

[Ruben Quevedo]

Hard to complain about Middleton's performance this year. He's been good for us when he's been on the court.

I do share some of rilamann's concerns though. Even during his best years his conditioning has been suspect, and his defense has obviously slipped quite a bit.

In clutch situations you want his shot-making ability on the court...but he's also the one most likely to fall asleep on defense or get outhustled for a loose ball in a critical moment.

[MiltownMadness]

Nah this narrative that Middleton aged 5 years in 1 offseason is **** lunacy, he has said himself the surgery was a great decision and he looks spry as ever. Numbers and eye test match this, he is still really good. This idea that he ever relied on some sort of lateral quickness that he might have lost 5% of is grasping at straws to make some sort of coherent argument

[Ruben Quevedo]

You think playing Jae Crowder more minutes than Middleton makes this bucks team better?

If Giannis and Dame can carry the load offensively then it's not an outrageous suggestion. Crowder has made a career out of doing the little things that are in fact big things during the playoffs.

But whether we'll ever see that version of Crowder again remains a valid question. Hopefully getting consistent minutes under Doc in an improved system brings out his best again.

[MiltownMadness]

Jrue Holiday is a year older than Khris, same Jrue that tanked our team last year in the playoffs and will be getting 35 MPG in the playoffs this season. Doc will be giving Khris 35 minutes a night in the playoffs as long as Khris can go, and we'll be a lot better for it.

[rilamann]

Hard to complain about Middleton's performance this year. He's been good for us when he's been on the court.

I do share some of rilamann's concerns though. Even during his best years his conditioning has been suspect, and his defense has obviously slipped quite a bit.

In clutch situations you want his shot-making ability on the court...but he's also the one most likely to fall asleep on defense or get outhustled for a loose ball in a critical moment.

Middleton can still score and knock down an open shot with the best of them.

It's the other aspects of his game that slipped a lot.

Middleton is like a basketball version of an NFL quarterback who still has all his arm strength, but is a sitting duck in the pocket because he lost all of his mobility. A perfect example was Favre in his last season.

I still trust Middleton to knock down a good look just as much as I did 3 years ago. The problem is, from a quickness and overall foot speed aspect, he looks like he's moving quicksand compared to 3 years ago. That and he has become really injury prone.

Khris can still be a positive and big factor in the Bucks returning to the Finals. But it's time to lower the minutes and keep them under 30.

As far starting or being the 6th man, I personally think Middleton would add a ton more value at this point coming off the bench with this current version of the Bucks.

Let Giannis and Dame set the tone, then have Midds come in drastically improve our bench production.

Call me crazy....lol.

[MiltownMadness]

Yes, play Khris below 30 so you can play the guy who is 1-16 on 3's in the last 6 games more minutes. Good thinking.

Playing Khris MORE minutes would improve the bench unit. You're trying to improve the bench unit by playing Khris less and putting him there, but the answer is just playing him more with the starters and then let him control the bench unit sporadically while Dame/GA rests.