How good is Mo Williams?

[europa]

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I have him about Mo, but there is no way he is an impact player. Besides nitpicking that... do you dispute that he is a top 10 PG?

I'd rank the top PGs in the league as follows:

1. Nash
2. Kidd
3a. Paul
3b. Williams
5. Billups
6. Davis
7. Parker
8. Arenas
9. Ford (when healthy which may never happen again)
10. Hinrich (not this season but for his career)

I think the first seven are the pre-eminent PGs in the game right now. The first four are clearly the best in my opinion but the other three are also standouts who could take any team in the league and make it better. Arenas is good enough to be put in that first group although I don't view him as a special player. I think there is a second tier populated by the next three and then a third tier where I'd rank guys like Andre Miller, Mo, Calderon, Felton and Tinsley. Obviously Ford's career-threatening injury and Hinrich's surprisingly poor play this season changes quite a bit but I'd still rank Miller slightly above guys like Mo, Calderon, Felton and Tinsley at this point.

[Newz]

I like Mo... I'm a huge fan of his...

How on earth can you even say he comes close to being as good as Tony Parker though?

[ReasonablySober]

I wish I knew how Sportsline calculates their player rankings. This is what they say:

The rankings are a total player-rating system based on various offensive and defensive statistics. Players increase their scores with every contribution they make to the game.

Mo is their 6th rated PG.

1 - Paul
2 - Davis
3 - Nash
4 - D. Williams
5 - Kidd
6 - Mo Williams
7 - Billups
8 - Parker
9 - Miller
10 - Tinsley

He's a bargain on this team.

[upnorthfan]

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I have him above Mo, but there is no way he is an impact player. Besides nitpicking that... do you dispute that he is a top 10 PG?

Here's a quick list of nine PGs who I think are clearly above Mo.

Paul
Nash
Kidd
Billups
D. Williams
Arenas
Parker
Hinrich
Davis

Then there's a group that I think are arguable in terms of how you rank them:

Felton
Ford
Calderon
Tinsley
Bibby
Harris
Williams

If you put Mo at the top of that group then he's #10. If you put him at the bottom he's #16. Each of that group of seven has strengths and weaknesses, so you will end up ranking them depending upon personal preferences. I happen to want to see defense and running an efficient offense out of PGs, so I'm pretty hard on Mo.

There is a name you forgot on your list. Actually it is a rotating name. Add to your list whoever is playing against Mo that night. They all look like All Stars against him.

[xTitan]

Mo Williams is a solid scorer at times, inconsistent...and absolute horrible defender, questionable court vision and decision making....not a big basketball IQ.

[smauss]

I do admit that I've been impressed by his positive change at running the team this year; he has shown much effort at improving but.........

Mo Williams is a solid scorer at times, inconsistent...and absolute horrible defender, questionable court vision and decision making....not a big basketball IQ.

Bingo!

[paulpressey25]

Nowak...I took all the numbers this morning off the Hollinger insider section of ESPN.com. They do a great job of updating them.

DB...I don't buy the CBS sportlines rankings...to the best of my knowledge those guys just add up points, rebounds, assists, etc.

Even if you don't like PER, I think Hollinger's other three stats are incredibly valuable.....being able to show what percentage of a PG's plays end in either an assist or a TO is a key stat. Additionally being able to see how effective a scorer they are is valuable as well after taking into account three-point shooting and the ability to draw fouls and get to the line.

I wouldn't take too much from those rankings that have Mo at 17th or 28th or whatever, because there are clearly inferior PG's ahead of him on those lists. But what I was trying to show was that Mo is not ranked highly in any of those three key categories. His strength is that he's good at everything but not exceptional at anything.

[BrewersGM]

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He's in his sixth season. Why would would his d improve?

Maybe play a little harder if some coach gets in his face...... You know there are certain coaches that dont put up with sh*t and demand a little more from there players... It could happen there Mickey!

[NeedsMoreCheese]

Well according to the guy in my sig, worse than Todd Day.

But hes a moron so yeah.

[Comet]

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Maybe play a little harder if some coach gets in his face...... You know there are certain coaches that dont put up with sh*t and demand a little more from there players... It could happen there Mickey!

Mo is in his 5th season, and has played for 4 coaches (Jerry Sloan, Terry Porter, Terry Stotts, and now Larry Krystkowiak).

What makes you so sure that Mo's defense would improve under a better coach? Some players just don't have good natural playing ability. In Mo's case, he naturally isn't much of a defender.

[BrewersGM]

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Mo is in his 5th season, and has played for 4 coaches (Jerry Sloan, Terry Porter, Terry Stotts, and now Larry Krystkowiak).

What makes you so sure that Mo's defense would improve under a better coach? Some players just don't have good natural playing ability. In Mo's case, he naturally isn't much of a defender.

We'll it seems to me that Mo played better D while Porter was coach and we werent having these conversations then about it... Never herd issues about MO being so bad on defense in the past, all people would do is say he was a little undersized cause they compared him to Ford at the time...

[BucksRuleAll22]

I think Mo is a bad PG, and is too undersized to play SG, so hes a great 6th man who can come in and score and shoot lights out.

[cam2win]

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We'll it seems to me that Mo played better D while Porter was coach and we werent having these conversations then about it... Never herd issues about MO being so bad on defense in the past, all people would do is say he was a little undersized cause they compared him to Ford at the time...

It's easiest to not look so bad on D when the other PG was the worst defensive PG in the league. Ford's D was pathetic at best.

That being said, I'm a huge Mo supporter. In my mind he falls somewhere in the 8-12 range for best PG in the league. No doubt he has room to grow, but he has learned alot and has continued to get better. He probably won't ever be top 5 IMO, and I'm okay with that. Not everyone can be, but I do think he can consistently be top 10 and eventually a borderline all star. I've always considered him to be Mike Bibby, a very good PG that was never considered the best. With the right pieces he can be a HUGE piece of a winning team.

People need to quit trying to make him something he's not. He's not Jason Kidd or Steve Nash or Chauncey Billups or Chris Paul or Deron Williams. So what, that doesn't mean he's not good and very valuable.

And all this "pass first" PG stuff is dumb. That is the most overrated thing EVER in the NBA. Kidd's been the ulitmate "pass first" PG for the last 10 years or so. Steve Nash right there with him. Well I have as many NBA rings as both of them combined.

He can score, and on this team he should, enough said.

[BrewersGM]

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It's easiest to not look so bad on D when the other PG was the worst defensive PG in the league. Ford's D was pathetic at best.

That being said, I'm a huge Mo supporter. In my mind he falls somewhere in the 8-12 range for best PG in the league. No doubt he has room to grow, but he has learned alot and has continued to get better. He probably won't ever be top 5 IMO, and I'm okay with that. Not everyone can be, but I do think he can consistently be top 10 and eventually a borderline all star. I've always considered him to be Mike Bibby, a very good PG that was never considered the best. With the right pieces he can be a HUGE piece of a winning team.

People need to quit trying to make him something he's not. He's not Jason Kidd or Steve Nash or Chauncey Billups or Chris Paul or Deron Williams. So what, that doesn't mean he's not good and very valuable.

And all this "pass first" PG stuff is dumb. That is the most overrated thing EVER in the NBA. Kidd's been the ulitmate "pass first" PG for the last 10 years or so. Steve Nash right there with him. Well I have as many NBA rings as both of them combined.

He can score, and on this team he should, enough said.

I agree with what you said... But I think Mo could really step his defense up. He could use his quickness more and play a little more physical... I think he can do it... Im a mo supporter too!

[cam2win]

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I agree with what you said... But I think Mo could really step his defense up. He could use his quickness more and play a little more physical... I think he can do it... Im a mo supporter too!

Right now that is his biggest flaw, and something that continues to frustrate me. I know he is capable of alot more on D, although I must say I see more of an effort in that regard this year than in the past. Not making any excuses, but I think at times he paces himself in games and on certain plays. I think he's playing more minutes than I think he is used to and it's wearing him down. If he could get himself into the kind of shape Mike did this year, I think we'd see a huge step forward.

[schweig]

I agree about the minutes. I'm not sure whether it's about his conditioning or just the way his body and build handles the grind. I wonder if he shouldn't just be held pretty close to 30 minutes to keep him at his peak without wearing him down. Could be wrong though, I'm happy the Achilles wasn't any worse.

[Nowak008]

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I have him about Mo, but there is no way he is an impact player. Besides nitpicking that... do you dispute that he is a top 10 PG?

I'd rank the top PGs in the league as follows:

1. Nash
2. Kidd
3a. Paul
3b. Williams
5. Billups
6. Davis
7. Parker
8. Arenas
9. Ford (when healthy which may never happen again)
10. Hinrich (not this season but for his career)
.

This year Mo has been much better then those bottom 3 guys. The fact you have Ford on that list is laughable.

I like Mo... I'm a huge fan of his...

How on earth can you even say he comes close to being as good as Tony Parker though?

Because he plays with a team of veterans and the best PF of all time. Parker is better, but I don't think he is light years better.

DB...I don't buy the CBS sportlines rankings...to the best of my knowledge those guys just add up points, rebounds, assists, etc.

Even if thats what they do, isn't being 6th on that list mean something? Mo having 7 ast is nothing short of a miracle with this train wreck of a team. I don't think thats what they do though because Mo is higher then Billups.


*Note I think I can finally admit I have a problem with RealGM. I am posting at my friends house.

[BrewersGM]

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Right now that is his biggest flaw, and something that continues to frustrate me. I know he is capable of alot more on D, although I must say I see more of an effort in that regard this year than in the past. Not making any excuses, but I think at times he paces himself in games and on certain plays. I think he's playing more minutes than I think he is used to and it's wearing him down. If he could get himself into the kind of shape Mike did this year, I think we'd see a huge step forward.

That could be. He played well defensively in the past. He fronted alot of guards with his quickness. He is able to use his speed too when he got beat off the dribble and make up space. He is big enough to play most PG... Maybe he is getting worn out...Maybe that could be the difference!

[europa]

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This year Mo has been much better then those bottom 3 guys. The fact you have Ford on that list is laughable.

Hardly. He's proven to be a Top 10 PG with the Raptors in my opinion when healthy - which I clearly noted. What's laughable is the lengths people in this forum still go to in order to avoid acknowledging how good he got in Toronto before his most recent injury. Back to Mo, I agree he's been better than Hinrich, for example, this season but over the course of their careers Hinrich has been the much better player and it's not even close. So if you asked me which player I'd rather have it's Hinrich. The fact he's been so bad this season is a concern but I have to believe given his talent and what he's shown in this league that he will not play at this level for an entire season and certainly not for the remainder of his career.

[Simulack]

This year Mo has been much better then those bottom 3 guys. The fact you have Ford on that list is laughable.

You know I'm a big Mo fan too but Ford has easily been better this year:

Ford in 25.9 minutes: 14.1 ppg (48.7%), 6.8 apg and 1.9 rpg

Mo in 36.7 minutes: 16.1 ppg (48.2%), 7.0 apg and 3.7 rpg

When you factor in minutes played, Ford has a pretty wide edge in all those categories except rebounds (arguably the least important stat for a PG). Ford's numbers are also very deflated since he went out of a couple games early with injuries and struggled a bit coming back from an injury.

The only real thing in Mo's favor has been health.

I'm pretty much in agreement with Europa here. Mo's definitely not top 10.
In terms of the guys Europa had on Mo's tier, I'd probably put Calderon ahead of him and Mo just slightly ahead of Miller, Tinsley and Felton but its very close.

Mo's somewhere in the 12/13 range for starting PG's.